If this game is still being worked out...

[BOYCOTT S-T-E-A-M!]

(Originally posted this in the "Nightly Build Feedback" subforum by mistake. Figured I'd repost it here.)


There are some things I would very much like to see done with this game.


1. Agents fighting back on their own when under fire by seeking nearby cover and returning fire.

So far in my time with the game my agents need to be constantly babysat to do anything. If they are being shot they will just stand right there in the open and catch bullets until death. The will only fight back if I specifically tell them to.

I really think the agents should, if they are discovered, take cover nearby when they come underfire and then shoot back at the enemy. I can understand people may not want that due to them wasting ammo, so there should be a toggle to all them to use their primary weapon or whether they are relegated to the pistol.


2. Get rid of weapon holstering / unholstering.

I have so far never found any situation where I would want my weapon drawn unless I'm actively planning to use it. Unfortunately, my people regularly decide to just randomly pull out a weapon and get me in all kinds of trouble.

Instead of being able to unholster weapons on our own I think agents should always keep them holstered unless we order them to shoot something or they return fire when being attacked. This would prevent unintentional suspicion of my agents and it would free up the space bar for...


3. Pauseable real-time.

Yes, I'm well aware that the previous two Syndicate games weren't pauseable, but they also didn't have fiddely hacking, ability usage, weapon holstering, or cover mechanics.

I'm also aware that the game has the ability to start off with the "team stim" support skill maxed out which allows you to slow down time drastically. Its annoying to use as a pauseable system though because you have to wait for its cooldown can't just pause quick for quick commands, it makes the screen blue and wavy like you're underwater, the screen has a wobble to it, the screen scrolls slow as hell, etc.

Additionally, the "team stim" isn't just a slow-mo it also provides stat boosts to your characters.

I'd just like to see an actual pause be in the game. So I could tap space, issue commands to my team at different locations, watch things unfold, and then repeat this process until the situation is under control.

The game has so much potential for being awesome by having each of your agents in different locations within a mission zone to be getting up to shenanigans, but the moment one thing goes wrong it just spirals to hell. Instead of approaching situations in stealthy, fun, and tactical ways... I've pretty much just been going in guns blazing as a giant death ball to each location which is shockingly effective... but boring.

Having the game be pauseable would also help to alleviate some of my frustrations with AI doing stupid things and the occasional bad pathfinding situation. Especially if it were to draw a blue line showing the path your agent was about to take or a red line to the target they are going to attack as this would allow you to better plan based on the pathfinding.




Other than those three things... I've so far been loving the game. Its got the style and atmosphere nailed. Those above things though pretty much ruin it for me though, especially the lack of a pause.

[BOYCOTT S-T-E-A-M!]

UPDATE - Another thing that would be a useful ....

4. Nearby visible enemy indicator.

If an agent isn't currently engaged in combat but has an enemy within line of sight near them they should have an icon of some kind, noticeable and decently sized, display on or above their character portrait.

This would be handy for situations where I have my group split up such as when my Hacker or Infiltrator is doing something solo while the others take cover nearby. It would be a handy way to keep tabs better on my agents that aren't my current focus and are off screen.

Granted, this wouldn't do much more than give a bit of an early warning unless the combat was also made pauseable as in request 3 above, but it would be better than the current situation where I don't realize my hidden people have been found until they start taking fire... and by then its usually too late.

[BOYCOTT S-T-E-A-M!]

UPDATE - Yet another thing I find thats frustrating me to no end....

5. Remember grouping assignments after agent death.

I always use F1 - F4 to group my agents so that I can better command them. F1 - all agents, F2 - all but Hacker, F3 - all but Support, F4 - all but Infiltrator. Unfortunately, whenever any or all agents die it clears all my group assignments.

I could understand if we had a completely customizable group of agents, but we don't. They are always those same classes in those same slots so I can't see any reason why the grouping assignments wouldn't be saved.

Ideally, it should not only persist throughout death but also be saved when you save the game. It would be a very appreciated quality of life improvement.

[Gillsing]

Yeah, that reset of custom groups is quite unnecessary. Doesn't it also reset when an agent switches to a new clone?

[BOYCOTT S-T-E-A-M!]

Yep. Death or clone changes break the group assignments. Its not a game critical issue, but its really annoying and can sometimes wipe your team.

Its bad enough when an agent gets killed in a bad spot in a mission, but it compounds the issue a bunch when you now can't properly control your surviving agents.

[Fhoenix]

Judging by the forum history, people have been complaining about holstering / unholstering and pause for months. I understand that lack of pause is a game "feature", and pause is unlikely to be implemented at this point. But holstering should not be that hard to fix.

Pathfinding is a real problem for me. I am trying to navigate the city and when clicking somewhere, the agents either refuse to move or move a little and then stop. You have to babysit them clicking on the ground every ten meters to get anywhere. I also lose agent selection for no reason all the time... Extremely disappointed with how clunky the game feels.

[Caldor]

Pathfinding did not seem to be that bad for me. Sure they could get stuck sometimes, but I guess I am used to babysit the agents as I did in the original Syndicate games. Usually they can go a reasonable distance in the city though. But well, for me its kind of a tick to keep telling the agent to move where I want the agent to go. Same with stealth kills, since the agent stops stealth killing if he risks being seen, as he should.

I do not remember having any problem with weapons holstering or unholstering unless I ask the agents to do so. Maybe if they get attack they draw the weapon and start shooting back? I do not remember, but that seemed like a good thing to me, since they had been discovered anyway.

[Sabi The Worst Player Ever]

Seconded for very first argument.

Babysitting is awful. Im seriously surprised to see game like this not having basic fuctions like agressive levels - simply being able to set your people into either "fire at every enemy in range", "fire only when attacked first" or "do not return fire under any chance" would GREATLY improve gameplay and fun.

It is simply frustrating to geting discovered and then right click on EVERY SINGLE ENEMY, because agents will happily ignore those guards testing durability of their armors. Or somehow forgetting what they were doing and stopping in the middle between two covers.

[Kyso4ek]

It needs a proper pause, AI for agents and action indicator. Whatever your agent does at this moment must be discernable

5-6 agent fights are terrible and barely playable in any sensible manner

[Emrys]

I would also love range of fire indicator. I want to see visually how far my sniper can shoot and not frantically order him to get back, when he starts running off to the target because he's out of range. And what's with the stealth kills from sniper rifles, why do I have to get up close with the sniper rifle for the stealth kill?

[Caldor]

It seems to be possible to change the AI of your agents in your savegame. I have not experimented much with it though.

Would be nice with range indicator for your weapons, and updated damage amounts for weapons taking all bonuses and buffs into account.

Having to control the agents is annoying I guess, but I actually completed the game the first time without ever using the supports Stim Packs, I do not really see why the game should need more than those Stim Packs, since you can queue agents actions, you can slow the game down 90% which makes the game very close to fully paused and if you memorize the hot keys, its not even needed to slow down / pause the game really. That is how I made it through the game on the first play through.

If there was a tactical pause, the game would begin to feel much less like an action game. In RTS games you do not have to option to pause the game and then still command your units.

But would be nice with something that made it clear to see what agents were about to do, their plan of action, and the queued actions they got. And it would make sense to make it easier to control and change the AI of your agents, In the original Syndicate agents did return fire on their own, when left behind.

[Sabi The Worst Player Ever]

Originally posted by Caldor:

If there was a tactical pause, the game would begin to feel much less like an action game. In RTS games you do not have to option to pause the game and then still command your units.

Correction - there are couple RTS games with active pause, especially if they focus on "tactical" part. Secondly, Satellite Reign is not RTS game - it is closer to RTT. There is not strategy here, only tactics.

[Caldor]

And it seems they focused on making this game multi player for quite some time, since they have not allowed this tactical pause, as it would be quite a problem in multi player games if both players can just pause the game all the time to make more moves.

This game has something that comes close to a tactical pause, so I do not really see that argument against this game as especially valid. I could complete the game without using that skill at all, and there is of course the regular pause when you go to the menus.

[BOYCOTT S-T-E-A-M!]

Originally posted by Caldor:

And it seems they focused on making this game multi player for quite some time, since they have not allowed this tactical pause, as it would be quite a problem in multi player games if both players can just pause the game all the time to make more moves.

This game has something that comes close to a tactical pause, so I do not really see that argument against this game as especially valid. I could complete the game without using that skill at all, and there is of course the regular pause when you go to the menus.

In multiplayer the tactical pause could just be disabled.

My assumption was that the multiplayer would likely be co-op of up to 4 players so each player would be controlling one of the agents. In such a case you could all be easily coordinated to simultaneously execute tactical plans.

Simultaneous execution of tactical plans isn't really possible in singleplayer though... which is why I'd like a tactical pause.




The game does have the stim packs which is somewhat like a tactical pause... but its not a tactical pause. See #3 of initial post for more details on why the stim pack isn't good as a tactical pause.

Yeah entirely right that you can complete the game without that skill. I hate the skill myself so I haven't used it. I've barely used any of the skills that aren't core skills like hacking and hardwiring.

I don't want a tactical pause because the game is hard and warrants it or anything. Its a matter of preference and playstyle.

If I had a tactical pause I could set up highly coordinate actions like taking out a large guard patrol in one silent stealthy strike by having my Soldier and Support stealth kill two of the guards, my Infiltrator melee the third guard, and my hacker hijacking the drone... all in one coordinated simultaneous strike.

It would make it possible to control your squad in more seperated groups.

Tactical pause wouldn't make the game easier. It would just allow me to play it in a more tactical way that I find enjoyable. It would actually make each mission take longer since it mostly be a series of careful planning and attempts to be stealthy and such.

It would certain take more time than my current method of approaching missions... which is to just roll in a four man deathball. The deathball is stupidly effective and pretty damn boring since there is no real variation in it and it doesn't really seem capable of losing.

Since there wasn't much hope of playing a fun tactical way I just skilled out, geared up, and augmented my guys solely for combat. I don't worry about things like ziplines or vents and rarely even bother to shut down power or cameras. I just shoot everything with four unstoppable gods.

Especially at about the mid point in the game. I didn't even bother opening doors anymore. I'd just blow them apart, shoot out the cameras, and carve a path to my objective. When it comes to combat I either just group my guys up as a firing squad behind one piece of cover until everything is dead or I just ignore cover all together and just march on slaughtering. I barely ever use active skills with the exception of the Infiltrators sword attack because thats fun to watch and break ups the tedium of the deathball for a couple seconds.

Highly effective, but pretty bland and boring after the fifth time you use the deathball tactic.
I'd much rather have access to a tactical pause so I could play the game in a way thats more fun for me.

[Fhoenix]

Unholstering problem is very easy to demonstrate. Just press Alt + 1 or Alt + 2. Changing weapon selection causes agents to unholster in the middle of the street. Whyyyyy?!

As for pathfinding, just try running around an area of the city that has car traffic. My agents try to run through cars. Sometimes they succeed and run around them. Sometimes they just give up and stop after a while. When they stop like that new commands to move in the same direction are often ignored because the agent can't find a way around the car.

Stimpack is not a tactical pause. It's a special ability that slows time. It uses energy and creates a weird screen effect. You can use it in the heat of battle, but it does not FEEL like a pause.
Game does not have multiplayer and if it ever has one pause can be disabled.

Oh, and I found one of the reasons why the game fell so clunky for me. I assigned camera to WASD. Turns out A was assigned to attack move. The game did not tell me about it and did not clear the previous assignment. So every time I moved camera to the left the game switched to attack move. Brilliant. I don't remember any other game that would just allow double assignment like that. Basically every time I want to assign a button I have to scroll through every command in the game to check that the button is not used already.

[Caldor]

The way I played seems to be how you want to play, but taking your team and then go in and stealth kill teams of guards. It helps to learn all the hotkeys, then I it is either the hacker that begins hijacking first or the infiltrator using his sword to kill the enemy that is in the back of the patrol. If it is not a drone, then I guess I could just stealth kill one of the two with the infiltrator, and save the katana skill for the drone or robot dog. When the hijack is happening and the other enemy is killed, I use my infiltrator again to go for the third enemy, if there is a third enemy in the patrol.

Doing all of it with one set of orders by the whole team is in my experience a very unsafe move. If you fail to factor in the speed each of your agents move with, or if just one of the enemies pauses or changes direction, the whole thing is probably goes wrong. Which is why I stick with the support and infiltrator for stealth kills like these.

As for the Stim Packs, the cooldown is 3 seconds, is that really a problem? I guess it might be 4 seconds if your support agent has not fully upgraded the leadership skill. Sure, the team stim gives bonuses to the team, but only while it is active, so you can just deactivate it before your team begins doing damage. I guess that might not be possible when your team is in combat and probably already firing at the enemy, but you find it a problem that your team gets bonuses when pausing / slowing down the game?