Ships should be buffed

[jep]

thruster crafts are way too op in the game right now because: its easy to make them work, they can be very compact, you dont have to care about weight and they are easy to armor up, while ships: need empty space to float, they cant have too much weight before they start just sinking, they are hard to stabilize, cant have too much armor because guess what? they sink, they are slow unless you make it so they arent actual ships using with hydrofoils and jets, they are not very energy efficient even when they dont need to waste energy flying.

so i would like it if buoyancy got some kind of buff or like a air pump upgrade (wich if you feel like that wouldent make sense a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ brick of heavy armor just flying around the sky at 50mps dosent make any sense either) to make it so ships are an actual option in the game called ''from the depths'', as right now they just dont have anything going for them.

i am very tired of seeing the ship that i spent 3 hours building just getting destroyed by a single shot of a railgun because it has no armor to stop it and if i want a decent ammount of firepower in the ship ill need to make it ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ heavy, and no i dont want to make my own hovercraft because its BORING, planes its ok, drones alr, but hovercrafts feel like cheating

also i was about to also mention nerfing thruster crafts themselves but that would just cause too much problems with current designs

this discusion changed a bit after some time so i would just recommend just looking at the comments

[Kubog]

Originally posted by jep:

so i would like it if buoyancy got some kind of buff or like a air pump upgrade (wich if you feel like that wouldent make sense a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ brick of heavy armor just flying around the sky at 50mps dosent make any sense either) to make it so ships are an actual option in the game called ''from the depths'', as right now they just dont have anything going for them.

There is an option in game to adjust this parameters to your liking.
Also: skill issue.

[jep]

Originally posted by Kubog:

Originally posted by jep:

so i would like it if buoyancy got some kind of buff or like a air pump upgrade (wich if you feel like that wouldent make sense a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ brick of heavy armor just flying around the sky at 50mps dosent make any sense either) to make it so ships are an actual option in the game called ''from the depths'', as right now they just dont have anything going for them.

There is an option in game adjust this parameters to your liking.
Also: skill issue.

what option?, and also wdym with skill issue? thruster crafts are just better in every single way that is all i am saying, it is possible to make a good ship capable of dealing with some of the problems but making a thruster craft is just way easier

[jep]

Originally posted by Kubog:

Originally posted by jep:

so i would like it if buoyancy got some kind of buff or like a air pump upgrade (wich if you feel like that wouldent make sense a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ brick of heavy armor just flying around the sky at 50mps dosent make any sense either) to make it so ships are an actual option in the game called ''from the depths'', as right now they just dont have anything going for them.

There is an option in game to adjust this parameters to your liking.
Also: skill issue.

ok i found the option but why is the default so bad? i dont want to feel like im cheating by making it so my ships can float with a game option, i want the default buoyancy to be higher by itself, it is like hey ima just install a mod so i dont have to do something in the game

[Dakota]

Just today I was in the bathroom thinkin of what type of craft I'd wanna make, picking between a ship and a thrustercraft. I liked the idea of a hovercraft because I wanted something simple to put together and just slap a big APS gun on it and some missiles, but I got to thinking about how much worse it would be than if I just built a ship.

APS for example is much better when fired in bursts so I'd want not a rapid fire big gun but multiple smaller guns. I want them spread out over a larger area so enemies shooting me doesn't take out all my guns at once. Ships would take up way less cost to run since I don't burn a bunch of energy or fuel on thrust and instead just float. Not to mention ships can take so much punishment before going down, I've had my ships fighting still at 20% health, while a thrustercraft is generally gonna fall and sink by that point. Being compact is not a good thing, it's a very very bad thing in this game.

As for ships, it just seems you may not be building them optimally if you're running into sinking issues and using air pumps. Rather than air pumps use alloy, alloy blocks are basically just armored air, they float nearly as much. Once you focus on alloy to float with you'll notice your ships are now super durable as enemies have to punch through so much bulk just to get to the internal bits, and then they have to go and do it again any time they swap to another part of the ship. In general I don't use metal at all on my ships, they're a mix of alloy and heavy armor, the heavy armor protecting turrets and important internals, and often a keel running along the bottom housing a line of ammo that's separated with a heavy armor divider to keep anything from chaining together.

I find that my ships just chew out the thrustercraft so easily that they're basically just a hard counter to thrustercraft, especially when I get into situations like 3 of my cruisers fighting against a singularity where I'm still lower cost than it but have gotten my missiles to a critical mass to just crush it in a couple volleys.


If you have any questions on ship design, feel free to ask, ships are a very strong option right now and I would say one of the best all around designs for durability. Thrustercraft are more min-maxed to 1v1 combat and raiding things, though still lose 1v1s against things that can top down attack them or otherwise get around to the sides that aren't the front, or just things with heavy piercing attacks like pierce pacs for example or heavy sabot railguns or burst lasers.

[Sixfold]

Water is a good layer of defense, thrust craft don't get that layer. There's also a much bigger power cost to fly rather than float, so for equal fire power at and equal material cost, the thrustercraft will have much less armour. Flight parts are also delicate, so you have more points of failure. Obviously you get the added evasion, but it's over faster when you eventually do get hit.

[Existence]

I dont think mocking the post owner is the right call here, especially when they are clearly stating that they prefer a form of warfare over another. And in my personal opinion, what they prefer is the better and more elegant form, over the coward's way of being an annoying mosquito all the time. (Yeah I said it, sue me if you will! :p)

However, we must accept the fact that certain forms of warfare will be better than others when used correctly. Land and naval warfare are basically engagements in a 2D environment, in the meanwhile air and space watfare can, and in most cases will, utrilize the 3D enviromental aspect to its advantage. The utilization capacity and effectiveness of will be varying, dependent on the player(s) that built all these combatants. Anyone can try building an elephant for the purpose of smashing through the enemy heavy infantry, but in the end that will still just be an elephant. It cant do everything on its own, it needs to be supported with decent archers, fast cavarly to exploit the openings in the flanks and heavy artillery for sieges - and definetely some form of infantry to support and defend all these direct combat elements. (Why did I choose ancient warfare for this simile, I dont know)

I will mention one more thing before heading back into my fun-house;
Modern age has spawned a chunk of people that originate from a form of thought processes that are not very helpful or understanding which is effecting how they act, talk and choose to represent their ideology and uninteresting, yet claimed not to be, individual personality. - What that previous sentence meant can be understood as many things, yet I prefer not to disclose it clearly. (Which I am very, very sorry to mention)

[budisourdog]

thruster crafts are way too op in the game right now
>Commonly used perhaps. Its more of the crazy evasion that makes craft problematic, when they bounce randomly left and right and up and down like Tarpon, or flyers like the Squirrel or even SS Falcon that does so little as throttling its thrust with bread all are enough to throw the AI's targetting off, and only hitscan weapons with modified detection settings are reliable takedowns. Boats, for the most part, cannot bob and weave like this, which is their primary disadvantage in combat, in being simply a large target, but gain the advantage of being very tanky and not falling from the sky when the thrusters get hit.

because: its easy to make them work,
>Yes and no. The AI can compensate for a lot of things to make some cursed stuff work, and other times you've got to play with PIDs to get the AI to understand the handling.

they can be very compact,
>True, anything when you know exactly what it needs will be compact. See nukes, bomb, ai, fuel, controls, jet, maybe a cone of metal, thats it. Same for planes. Same for ships. Same for anything.

you dont have to care about weight and
>False. Every pound is thrust needed to stay aloft, or engine power, both are material consumed per second. Everything off center must be balanced to maintain stability.

they are easy to armor up,
>See above. But here you're most likely talking about monosiders, like the frontal heavy armor bricks. You can do that with any type of craft. The immediate disadvantage of stacking all the armor on one side in a giant doomsday craft is that anything else will hit weaker, critical areas, so they're vulnerable in fleet battles and against squadrons/carriers and nukes.

while ships: need empty space to float,
>Use alloy, its extremely buoyant. Also wood. Pumps are secondary and unreliable, because as soon as you get shot up, they stop functioning. You can also just spam propellers everywhere, and make the boat function like a hovercraft in water, but that's boring and a death sentence if your engine goes kaboom.

they cant have too much weight before they start just sinking,
>Its about the buoyancy. 1 Alloy is +35, 1 metal is like -2, heavy is -100 iirc, but the game will tell you the numbers itself. 1 wedge of alloy can float multiple pieces of metal, but you don't want to spend every bit of your buoyancy in armor, because the guns and engines also have mass to float.

they are hard to stabilize,
>Boats should be stable, not accounting for waves. Probably too narrow, too tall, or the center of mass aka big guns and armor being too high up. Wide and long is good, low is even better. And you can use propellers to handle roll or pitch should they continue being problems.

cant have too much armor because guess what? they sink, they are slow
>Balance out your buoyancy. If you want fast, use only alloy, its 75% as good as metal, floaty as heck and low mass. That's how almost every White Flayers ship works.

unless you make it so they arent actual ships using with hydrofoils and jets,
>Those are alternate designs.

they are not very energy efficient even when they dont need to waste energy flying.
>Boats are far more economical here precisely because they don't burn materials staying aloft. Consider hydrodynamics, try to skim the surface and be pointy instead of pushing a brick along, and go slower. Heck you can use spinblock waterwheels for free propulsion up to about 20m/s with enough of them.

[budisourdog]

The craft that do need a buff are:
>Submarines. Below 80% HP and underwater kills it even if the damage is entirely superficial blasting off chunks of armor. Sinking and "Out of Control" also get triggered fairly easily. Triggers need reworking to not destroy them so easily when they are still online and shooting.

>Structures. Block health or armor should be scaled up, to compensate for being completely immobile. Why use structures you could have a fortress: mobile, with identical 100% stability. There's no upside to them.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by budisourdog:

The craft that do need a buff are:
>Submarines. Below 80% HP and underwater kills it even if the damage is entirely superficial blasting off chunks of armor. Sinking and "Out of Control" also get triggered fairly easily. Triggers need reworking to not destroy them so easily when they are still online and shooting.

>Structures. Block health or armor should be scaled up, to compensate for being completely immobile. Why use structures you could have a fortress: mobile, with identical 100% stability. There's no upside to them.

Structures I can agree with, but submarines are the strongest craft in the game by far.

[Underscorecow]

Structures are sad, can build a giant turret that can shoot across neter with pinpoint accuracy but cant serve as artillery support in a big fight by popping into existence until the craft feeding it targeting information are dead.

[jep]

Originally posted by budisourdog:

thruster crafts are way too op in the game right now
>Commonly used perhaps. Its more of the crazy evasion that makes craft problematic, when they bounce randomly left and right and up and down like Tarpon, or flyers like the Squirrel or even SS Falcon that does so little as throttling its thrust with bread all are enough to throw the AI's targetting off, and only hitscan weapons with modified detection settings are reliable takedowns. Boats, for the most part, cannot bob and weave like this, which is their primary disadvantage in combat, in being simply a large target, but gain the advantage of being very tanky and not falling from the sky when the thrusters get hit.

because: its easy to make them work,
>Yes and no. The AI can compensate for a lot of things to make some cursed stuff work, and other times you've got to play with PIDs to get the AI to understand the handling.

they can be very compact,
>True, anything when you know exactly what it needs will be compact. See nukes, bomb, ai, fuel, controls, jet, maybe a cone of metal, thats it. Same for planes. Same for ships. Same for anything.

you dont have to care about weight and
>False. Every pound is thrust needed to stay aloft, or engine power, both are material consumed per second. Everything off center must be balanced to maintain stability.

they are easy to armor up,
>See above. But here you're most likely talking about monosiders, like the frontal heavy armor bricks. You can do that with any type of craft. The immediate disadvantage of stacking all the armor on one side in a giant doomsday craft is that anything else will hit weaker, critical areas, so they're vulnerable in fleet battles and against squadrons/carriers and nukes.

while ships: need empty space to float,
>Use alloy, its extremely buoyant. Also wood. Pumps are secondary and unreliable, because as soon as you get shot up, they stop functioning. You can also just spam propellers everywhere, and make the boat function like a hovercraft in water, but that's boring and a death sentence if your engine goes kaboom.

they cant have too much weight before they start just sinking,
>Its about the buoyancy. 1 Alloy is +35, 1 metal is like -2, heavy is -100 iirc, but the game will tell you the numbers itself. 1 wedge of alloy can float multiple pieces of metal, but you don't want to spend every bit of your buoyancy in armor, because the guns and engines also have mass to float.

they are hard to stabilize,
>Boats should be stable, not accounting for waves. Probably too narrow, too tall, or the center of mass aka big guns and armor being too high up. Wide and long is good, low is even better. And you can use propellers to handle roll or pitch should they continue being problems.

cant have too much armor because guess what? they sink, they are slow
>Balance out your buoyancy. If you want fast, use only alloy, its 75% as good as metal, floaty as heck and low mass. That's how almost every White Flayers ship works.

unless you make it so they arent actual ships using with hydrofoils and jets,
>Those are alternate designs.

they are not very energy efficient even when they dont need to waste energy flying.
>Boats are far more economical here precisely because they don't burn materials staying aloft. Consider hydrodynamics, try to skim the surface and be pointy instead of pushing a brick along, and go slower. Heck you can use spinblock waterwheels for free propulsion up to about 20m/s with enough of them.

ok i get the thing about the efficiency but if you want more weight in your thruster craft you can just use more thrusters and you are ok, stabilization isnt a problem for thruster craft most of the time unless you are making a 1m materials master piece, as all you need is a couple of thrusters in the point wich needs more power to go up, and about the armor and buoyancy in boats i get that alloy is much more efficient than metal or heavy armor but sometimes you want decent outer armor and you dont want to waste even more materials making another wall of alloy wich will be destroyed after a laser decides to touch it for more than 2 seconds, and i also dont want to waste more materials making the ship even bigger than it was before just so it stays over the water, all of it because i tried to add more than 2 weapons and a single internal wall of heavy armor, and even when i get the ship to float and i put it out into a test angaist a hover craft it shoots the back of my vehicle wich has some of the resourses and my engine with a railgun, and because yes i did use some propellers to stay over water, control pitch, and rolling, my ship starts sinking in about 10 seconds after the fight started and if that dosent happen it one shots my main weapon and all i have is 2 secondary weapons that yes they can do something but, they get shot down a couple of seconds later, that would happen if somehow dosent shoot my engine anyways and the boat starts sinking again, i dont think i got to answer everything with this but if you actually want me to answer something else about what i said just send another response message and i might see it at some moment

[jep]

and btw i do use the extra engine power that i have left in a couple of shields but it dosent help me that much

[jep]

im going to try to make a new ship with what yall have been telling me to make a decent ship and i just might give an update on that, it will probably take about 3 hours as im trying to make a ship in the 300k - 400k materials range for a campaing

[budisourdog]

I feel like you didn't read anything but the last part of what I said and carelessly wrote an incomprehensible response tangent, complete with lack of capitalization and beginnings and endings to sentences.

[budisourdog]

you don't want to waste materials so you won't use armor and complain ships are too weak, but then say you don't use heavy armor because it sinks and won't use alloy to balance it out so you use propellers and then complain about something I can't understand what you're saying because this format of endless sentences is difficult to comprehend do you get me mate I have limited time and effort, some of which has been invested in trying to help you by the way lasers are really bad for testing your armor schemes because they channel pinpoint damage just like a big kinetic railgun shot and you seem to be having problems with those so adapt against it use smoke to ward off laser damage temporarily and use some wedges to help defeat kinetic rounds even still its hard to survive them so really don't sweat it you need redundancy especially if your weapons are getting knocked out and you start sinking 10 seconds into every fight consider reducing the design to simpler modular compartments and actually armor the important bits and build bigger so when the craft gets shot its not always, immediately hitting your cargo or engine or gun but has hull damage to shed before it becomes critical I don't know what more to say