Custom/Advanced Cannon ammo useful info/guide. (Where/when to use what)

[Admiral Obvious]

I was thinking of making a guide for this, but instead I'll just babble on about it here. Explaining real world stuff, and application in game. As well as give you guys some ideas on what to use.

If you can't get a shot loaded into your clips, check to make sure that your shot isn't too wide or too long to be loaded. A good way to fix this if it does happen is manually set the bore size to ensure that the shot isn't too big (as 8m clips are either, A, not in game yet, or B, broke in the dev build). Verify the size the shot must be in order to fit into a 4m rack for example, and set the max bore size to equal that value.

Currently the game only has gunpowder fired shells, this is the only way to propel a shot from an advanced cannon.

The base bleeder makes the round go a bit faster (I think, not in game, can't remember). Yes, the base bleeder is a part of the shell that fits the bore of the gun making sure that no gasses manage to pass in front of the shot as it's pushed forwards. In the real world these are used commonly on APDS, and APCR shells (both sabot), since they are usually half the size of the bore itself.

Shell types can vary quite a lot, but in general there are things you shouldn't/can't use together. For example, you REALLY shouldn't use a Sabot head with a HE body, because A, that's not how it works in real life, and B, the explosive power will be very weak (although if used correctly, very useful).

A few shell designs you should try.

The APHE round. For this type of shot, you'd need at least 4 shell parts, but longer is probably better, since this shot requires penetration of the target structure to be useful. If you combine an AP head, with a HE (with fragmentation if you feel dirty) body, and a penetration fuse in between, you get a very powerful (and back in the day, conventional) shot. I would recommend using the solid AP head over the composite head, since the composite head might shatter on particularly tough targets preventing the purpose of internal detonation.

Solid AP. This one is a fairly common sense round, and it could work on pretty much every gun you build, unless you have a particularly stumpy barrel. These are simple, and are made simply to put a large hole, about the size of the round into the target. The shot should be entirely AP body, potentially with an AP or Composite cap. An AP round if made correctly will actually shatter once the shot penetrates the hull of the target, ideally spreading additional shrapnel throughout the target, and possibly bounce off the back to do more damage. If done "wrong" the shot won't penetrate the target and do nothing, or, the even more fun "wrong" way is the shot passes clean through, largely doing nothing, unless it hits something important. Generally, a longer shot is better, because once the shot reaches a certain point in width, it doesn't benefit the shot, and in fact can damage it's penetration ability (which may not be a bad thing).

Why use Hollow Point? Well, in the case above, with the AP round over penetrating the target, a hollow point head can mitigate a whole lot of this issue, as the head mashes against the armor of the target, and directs additional force to the structure itself by bunting itself as it hits. These shells are known as armor piercing capped rounds (APC for short), and generally are designed to defeat armor sloping more than a standard AP round with a solid sharp head. They actually put a bigger hole in the structure than a standard AP round as a result too.

HESH (Squash). This is an unusual type of shell in that it's actually not specifically meant to blow a hole into the armor, but instead make a very large dent, shooting parts of the armor off into the (mostly) empty hull. On the outside, firing these won't look like they do much, but thats not the point of a squash head shell. The squash head shell is intended to inflict more INTERNAL damage than EXTERNAL, if fired at the right spot, it will detonate ammo or fuel. Usually the size of HESH doesn't matter, but bigger is better in terms of HE. A small HESH shell will still deliver SOME shrapnel, even if it is harmless. Large HESH shells are a good idea though, as it's much more likely to blow parts off the hull. Ideally a HESH shell is built entirely out of HE.

HEAT (Shaped Charge). This is pretty much identical compared to HESH in terms of design, but with a different type of head. A HEAT shell is designed to direct all the explosive force forward instead of meshing against the armor. It will burn it's way through very thick armor, and also damage the area around it (it's still not a HE shell though).

Flak/High Explosive round. These can be made of shells of pretty much any size, and will work differently depending on the intended design. Any HE round can, and will detonate on contact with a target, without a fuse (in game at least, that's not how it really works, we need a pressure fuse head for this to be accurate). Flak cannons however are designed so that they will still work, even after a near miss. It is recommended to either use a proximity fuse, or a timed/altitude fuse. For the proximity fuse to work, you will need a laser targeting system, for a timed fuse, it will just work. Ideally, while configuring your flak portion of the shell (fragmentation), it's recommended to either set the burst to go 90 degrees (all fragments go mostly forward) especially on proxy fuses, or 180 degrees (fragments go everywhere) on timed fuses.

Straight up HE. As a general rule with HE, bigger is better. It doesn't matter how fast the shell goes if it's vaporized the moment it hits the target. In fact, most nations in the real world use "stump" barrels for very large HE/HEAT cannons. At the moment, I haven't discovered how to make a strictly HE round, since all shells must be capped (and as said above, there is no pressure fuse head). Of course, in game, you can manipulate your gun to get high velocity, massive HE cannons, but velocity doesn't do anything influencing how much damage a HEAT/HE warhead will deal.

Sabot. Sabot is quite overused by people, especially when they try and build railguns. I know exactly why they do, and I can tell you why it is a bad idea to use Sabot over AP in a railgun. Sabot rounds are sub caliber munitions, which once their casing falls off, make them about half the size of the bore itself. In game, also, sabot rounds don't fragment, instead they just pass through whatever they hit, sometimes not even dealing damage (might be a bug). Velocity is not the only factor to be considered when building a shell. Sabot rounds are mainly intended to be used within conventional cannons in the case that their "standard" armor piercing ammo fails, as the extra velocity helps give the extra punch the shot needs to overcome the armor of the target. It's also worth noting that sabot rounds CAN bounce off things, a bit more often than regular AP rounds can, and it makes it inferior against extreme sloping (like a 1x4 ramp).

What do I recommend for the railgun then? An APC round. Maybe with a penetration depth HE or Frag charge mixed in. With a proper railgun, velocity will very much help the soft head spread the energy of its velocity through the target, similar to the way a HESH shell does, and will usually deal significantly more damage than a shot that is effectively half the size, that doesn't fragment.

EMP warheads are a bit unusual when used in cannons. Although they work rather well when built appropriately. As a general rule again with an EMP, like HE bigger is usually better, especially if you are trying to overload a shield. However, many fast firing, very small EMP shots will slowly destabilize a shield if enough hits come close. When building an EMP warhead, I'd recommend using a standard AP head, and add a fuse that activates when the shot is bounced (forgot what it's called, you will know what mean though). The moment it hits the shield, and bounces, it will set off the EMP charge, usually disabling the shield for a short while. Allowing for your other shots to get in, as well as probably doing some colateral damage to the AI, and other EMP affected parts.

WIP, will edit in a bit.

[colonelmustardgas3]

İlk olarak Admiral Obvious tarafından gönderildi:

I was thinking of making a guide for this, but instead I'll just babble on about it here. Explaining real world stuff, and application in game. As well as give you guys some ideas on what to use.

If you can't get a shot loaded into your clips, check to make sure that your shot isn't too wide or too long to be loaded. A good way to fix this if it does happen is manually set the bore size to ensure that the shot isn't too big (as 8m clips are either, A, not in game yet, or B, broke in the dev build). Verify the size the shot must be in order to fit into a 4m rack for example, and set the max bore size to equal that value.

Currently the game only has gunpowder fired shells, this is the only way to propel a shot from an advanced cannon.

The base bleeder makes the round go a bit faster (I think, not in game, can't remember). Yes, the base bleeder is a part of the shell that fits the bore of the gun making sure that no gasses manage to pass in front of the shot as it's pushed forwards. In the real world these are used commonly on APDS, and APCR shells (both sabot), since they are usually half the size of the bore itself.

Shell types can vary quite a lot, but in general there are things you shouldn't/can't use together. For example, you REALLY shouldn't use a Sabot head with a HE body, because A, that's not how it works in real life, and B, the explosive power will be very weak (although if used correctly, very useful).

A few shell designs you should try.

The APHE round. For this type of shot, you'd need at least 4 shell parts, but longer is probably better, since this shot requires penetration of the target structure to be useful. If you combine an AP head, with a HE (with fragmentation if you feel dirty) body, and a penetration fuse in between, you get a very powerful (and back in the day, conventional) shot. I would recommend using the solid AP head over the composite head, since the composite head might shatter on particularly tough targets preventing the purpose of internal detonation.

Solid AP. This one is a fairly common sense round, and it could work on pretty much every gun you build, unless you have a particularly stumpy barrel. These are simple, and are made simply to put a large hole, about the size of the round into the target. The shot should be entirely AP body, potentially with an AP or Composite cap. An AP round if made correctly will actually shatter once the shot penetrates the hull of the target, ideally spreading additional shrapnel throughout the target, and possibly bounce off the back to do more damage. If done "wrong" the shot won't penetrate the target and do nothing, or, the even more fun "wrong" way is the shot passes clean through, largely doing nothing, unless it hits something important. Generally, a longer shot is better, because once the shot reaches a certain point in width, it doesn't benefit the shot, and in fact can damage it's penetration ability (which may not be a bad thing).

Why use Hollow Point? Well, in the case above, with the AP round over penetrating the target, a hollow point head can mitigate a whole lot of this issue, as the head mashes against the armor of the target, and directs additional force to the structure itself by bunting itself as it hits. These shells are known as armor piercing capped rounds (APC for short), and generally are designed to defeat armor sloping more than a standard AP round with a solid sharp head. They actually put a bigger hole in the structure than a standard AP round as a result too.

HESH (Squash). This is an unusual type of shell in that it's actually not specifically meant to blow a hole into the armor, but instead make a very large dent, shooting parts of the armor off into the (mostly) empty hull. On the outside, firing these won't look like they do much, but thats not the point of a squash head shell. The squash head shell is intended to inflict more INTERNAL damage than EXTERNAL, if fired at the right spot, it will detonate ammo or fuel. Usually the size of HESH doesn't matter, but bigger is better in terms of HE. A small HESH shell will still deliver SOME shrapnel, even if it is harmless. Large HESH shells are a good idea though, as it's much more likely to blow parts off the hull. Ideally a HESH shell is built entirely out of HE.

HEAT (Shaped Charge). This is pretty much identical compared to HESH in terms of design, but with a different type of head. A HEAT shell is designed to direct all the explosive force forward instead of meshing against the armor. It will burn it's way through very thick armor, and also damage the area around it (it's still not a HE shell though).

Flak/High Explosive round. These can be made of shells of pretty much any size, and will work differently depending on the intended design. Any HE round can, and will detonate on contact with a target, without a fuse (in game at least, that's not how it really works, we need a pressure fuse head for this to be accurate). Flak cannons however are designed so that they will still work, even after a near miss. It is recommended to either use a proximity fuse, or a timed/altitude fuse. For the proximity fuse to work, you will need a laser targeting system, for a timed fuse, it will just work. Ideally, while configuring your flak portion of the shell (fragmentation), it's recommended to either set the burst to go 90 degrees (all fragments go mostly forward) especially on proxy fuses, or 180 degrees (fragments go everywhere) on timed fuses.

Straight up HE. As a general rule with HE, bigger is better. It doesn't matter how fast the shell goes if it's vaporized the moment it hits the target. In fact, most nations in the real world use "stump" barrels for very large HE/HEAT cannons. At the moment, I haven't discovered how to make a strictly HE round, since all shells must be capped (and as said above, there is no pressure fuse head). Of course, in game, you can manipulate your gun to get high velocity, massive HE cannons, but velocity doesn't do anything influencing how much damage a HEAT/HE warhead will deal.

Sabot. Sabot is quite overused by people, especially when they try and build railguns. I know exactly why they do, and I can tell you why it is a bad idea to use Sabot over AP in a railgun. Sabot rounds are sub caliber munitions, which once their casing falls off, make them about half the size of the bore itself. In game, also, sabot rounds don't fragment, instead they just pass through whatever they hit, sometimes not even dealing damage (might be a bug). Velocity is not the only factor to be considered when building a shell. Sabot rounds are mainly intended to be used within conventional cannons in the case that their "standard" armor piercing ammo fails, as the extra velocity helps give the extra punch the shot needs to overcome the armor of the target. It's also worth noting that sabot rounds CAN bounce off things, a bit more often than regular AP rounds can, and it makes it inferior against extreme sloping (like a 1x4 ramp).

What do I recommend for the railgun then? An APC round. Maybe with a penetration depth HE or Frag charge mixed in. With a proper railgun, velocity will very much help the soft head spread the energy of its velocity through the target, similar to the way a HESH shell does, and will usually deal significantly more damage than a shot that is effectively half the size, that doesn't fragment.

EMP warheads are a bit unusual when used in cannons. Although they work rather well when built appropriately. As a general rule again with an EMP, like HE bigger is usually better, especially if you are trying to overload a shield. However, many fast firing, very small EMP shots will slowly destabilize a shield if enough hits come close. When building an EMP warhead, I'd recommend using a standard AP head, and add a fuse that activates when the shot is bounced (forgot what it's called, you will know what mean though). The moment it hits the shield, and bounces, it will set off the EMP charge, usually disabling the shield for a short while. Allowing for your other shots to get in, as well as probably doing some colateral damage to the AI, and other EMP affected parts.

WIP, will edit in a bit.

One thing to note as well should be the use of Graviton Rams. These, although intended for aircraft, are very useful in engagements with small to medium ships. Graviton Rams apply a lot of force to a vehicle upon impact, causing it to move awkwardly. One thing I've seen is that creations that rely on cannons do not like to be pushed. At all.

It can cause cannons that require trajectory (CRAM or large, slow Advanced Cannons) to miss by moving the ship farther away or causing it to turn. With higher velocity cannons that require a line of sight and maintained angle, well placed Graviton shots will cause the vehicle to roll or turn, making the cannons miss their targets entirely. This also comes to play with armor design. If a vehicle relies on slanted armor or heavy plated armor, shifting the vehicle will result in hitting armor in unintended areas, or even striking flat against slopes. With smaller, more agile craft to fast to hit with large shells, Graviton Rams can actually LIFT the vehicle out of the water, where it can no longer evade shots. As long as you sustain fire, they will be incinerated, because they are unable to avoid heavy-hitting shells.

For air, Gravitons will disrupt flight patterns, causing vehicles to pivot in ways they don't want to. If an aircraft is heading directly towards you (if they begin strafing or commence an attack run), the ram will push it straight backward, keeping it still enough to pick apart. With craft that are "upsidedown turtles" (heavy armor on bottom, light armor on top) hitting the side or lower part of the craft will cause it to roll, exposing the weak upper half.

Gravitons are not full proof, though. In engagements with large, heavy vehicles, they will not push the craft as much, giving little effect for the use of a shell rear. Also, structures and Sky Fortresses are immune to the effects of a Graviton, so it is yet another waste of space. Also, in fighting submersibles, Graviton s do not exert as much force once they hit the water, so it would be better to just use a Supercavitation Base. It is important to blend ammo types, so you can deal with a variety of enemies.

[colonelmustardgas3]

İlk olarak Gilaric tarafından gönderildi:

Ammo clips or solid ammo clips? for a minigun.

These have no effect really. The only difference is that Solid Ammo Clips have slightly more armor. Regular Ammo Clips anly allow you to see the shells loaded into the gun, making it useful for weapon testing. That, and it looks cooler.

[Admiral Obvious]

İlk olarak colonelmustardgas3 tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Gilaric tarafından gönderildi:

Ammo clips or solid ammo clips? for a minigun.

These have no effect really. The only difference is that Solid Ammo Clips have slightly more armor. Regular Ammo Clips anly allow you to see the shells loaded into the gun, making it useful for weapon testing. That, and it looks cooler.

Solid clips also keep the game from tanking your FPS by not rendering the shells. Kind of important on massive vessels.

[colonelmustardgas3]

İlk olarak Admiral Obvious tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak colonelmustardgas3 tarafından gönderildi:

These have no effect really. The only difference is that Solid Ammo Clips have slightly more armor. Regular Ammo Clips anly allow you to see the shells loaded into the gun, making it useful for weapon testing. That, and it looks cooler.

Solid clips also keep the game from tanking your FPS by not rendering the shells. Kind of important on massive vessels.

That too.

[Cornpie]

I would recommend including the following information:
I needed to use this spreadsheet to optimise my fire rate so I would not bottleneck my cannon.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7LfzBdEIo89WGNCY3NsVERURTQ/view
I also found a huge difference when I matched my barrel length to the recommended length in the shell statistics screen. This is because as it turns out, having a longer barrels is not always better and I had a hell of a time figuring that out.

You should also do a section on shell base and when to use each. While using supercavition is straight forward, when should I use base bleeder and when should I use tracer? Sometimes I have swapped out the base bleeder for gunpowder and ♥♥♥♥♥♥ more velocity and sometimes I have lost velocity. Whats the threshold for that?

I should also note that I had to take all this information together (referencing the info above) in order to make an advanced cannon capable enough to rival CRAM and laser designs. Although its possible this all might be common sense to some people but I couldent do a thing without it. Use this information, and shush those scrubs who say advanced cannons are under powered! I'm sick of hearing it! >:D

Thank you alot Admiral Obvious, this information has been a huge help! I would call this a guide even. Its in depth enough and definitely incredibly helpful as I could not find this information anywhere else.

Lastly, I made a solid AP shell GGGGBBP (G is gunpowder B is solid body and P is AP head) and then I made a HESH shell GGGGHHS (H is He body and S is the HESH head and I set the special factor to max for all He warheads). However, my AP did significantly more damage even counting for the internal damage caused by the HESH shell. I was using a 201 mm single barrelled gun with about 9 barrels. Am I doing something wrong with the HESH shell? Or is solid AP just that much better? Or is it something to do with the gauge, velocity or special factor that I used?

[Admiral Obvious]

İlk olarak ^2cornpie tarafından gönderildi:

Lastly, I made a solid AP shell GGGGBBP (G is gunpowder B is solid body and P is AP head) and then I made a HESH shell GGGGHHS (H is He body and S is the HESH head and I set the special factor to max for all He warheads). However, my AP did significantly more damage even counting for the internal damage caused by the HESH shell. I was using a 201 mm single barrelled gun with about 9 barrels. Am I doing something wrong with the HESH shell? Or is solid AP just that much better? Or is it something to do with the gauge, velocity or special factor that I used?

It's been some time since I've "really" played FTD. However, I distinctly remember that HESH damage is dependent on what surface it actually strikes, and the armor value of said armor. The higher the value, the more damage is inflicted internally. RNG plays a large factor in it too.

As a general rule of thumb, for me at least, you'd want your HE shells, almost always going to be 230mm and up, with the exception that you are going for stuff like squirrels and other low armored targets, where I've had success in the 60mm range, and even a gun in the 40mm range, granted it was useless against missiles.

Another important rule is that HE shells couldn't care less about velocity, which is kind of the point of them, as they can make some relatively cheap low velocity guns with a lot of punch behind them.

[colonelmustardgas3]

İlk olarak ^2cornpie tarafından gönderildi:

I would recommend including the following information:
I needed to use this spreadsheet to optimise my fire rate so I would not bottleneck my cannon.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7LfzBdEIo89WGNCY3NsVERURTQ/view
I also found a huge difference when I matched my barrel length to the recommended length in the shell statistics screen. This is because as it turns out, having a longer barrels is not always better and I had a hell of a time figuring that out.

You should also do a section on shell base and when to use each. While using supercavition is straight forward, when should I use base bleeder and when should I use tracer? Sometimes I have swapped out the base bleeder for gunpowder and ♥♥♥♥♥♥ more velocity and sometimes I have lost velocity. Whats the threshold for that?

I should also note that I had to take all this information together (referencing the info above) in order to make an advanced cannon capable enough to rival CRAM and laser designs. Although its possible this all might be common sense to some people but I couldent do a thing without it. Use this information, and shush those scrubs who say advanced cannons are under powered! I'm sick of hearing it! >:D

Thank you alot Admiral Obvious, this information has been a huge help! I would call this a guide even. Its in depth enough and definitely incredibly helpful as I could not find this information anywhere else.

Lastly, I made a solid AP shell GGGGBBP (G is gunpowder B is solid body and P is AP head) and then I made a HESH shell GGGGHHS (H is He body and S is the HESH head and I set the special factor to max for all He warheads). However, my AP did significantly more damage even counting for the internal damage caused by the HESH shell. I was using a 201 mm single barrelled gun with about 9 barrels. Am I doing something wrong with the HESH shell? Or is solid AP just that much better? Or is it something to do with the gauge, velocity or special factor that I used?

In all honesty, tracers are pretty useless, unless you are fighting up close. A tracer makes rounds have a bright tail, so you can see your rounds at night (but seeing as how the night is only 30 seconds, it is not an issue). Another thing about tracers is that it increases the accuracy of the round for like 2 seconds after leaving the barrel. Other than that, it is useless.

Base Bleeders are usually the way to go. They will increase the shell velocity, allowing for quicker contact. I don't know if this works with large shells (100mm+), because it says its maximum length is 100mm but I put it on all my cannons. Also, don't quote me on this, but I do believe they give some increase to kinetic damage and AP damage. I suggest using Base Bleeders on AA guns, because the quicker velocity allows the gun to hit faster or erratic targets (Flying Squirrel).

As for the threshold, it all depends on size of shell and she'll component. Base Bleeders give a large velocity increase to smaller rounds, whereas Gunpowder Casing has a general effect. It all depends on the purpose of the shell.

Finally, AP is more effective on small armored targets. If you are facing light, large targets (Nessie or Marauder), an HE shell will take out large chunks of the ship. Against armored ships (practically any Onyx Watch ship), HE does not have enough AP damage to breach hulls, and not enough concentrated damage to break armor. AP exerts all of its damage directly on front of the shell, so it will bore holes in armored ships. With small ships, the innards (AI, Ammunition, Engine, etc.) are close together, so breaching the hull has a high probability of hitting something valuable.

The trick behind knowing which one to use is knowing what you are up against. With AP shells, you are hoping that you hit something valuable directly. With HE, you hope that by hitting everywhere, you will hit something. For light armored ships, HE. For heavy armored ships, AP. For big ships with medium to heavy armor, though, I would suggest APFrag (AP shell with Pen Depth or Inertial Fuse and Frag Body).

[Cornpie]

I guess I took your advice on bigger He shells a little too lightly! Thank you admiral and colonel. I suppose I have some building to do in regards to a working APFrag shell and I need some big HEAT cannons.

I love how every time some brings up AA, they instantly bring up the flying squirrel. We must be ready for the most derp and accidentally overpowered of designs! Originally the game described them as ''the flying squirrel is the DWG cheapest flying craft built out of spare parts''. Meanwhile, whole fleets where lost to multiple squirrels because of flying like your severely drunk. Then the dev's where all, wow... People are getting wrecked by the design that was supposedly built in junkyards. We should make it more expensive and put it in the godly teir. They don't even try to hide it either, the new description is hilarious. ''The squirrel was a wonderful success and has made itself a staple in every fleet with the ultimate clutch power.'' And so it was. NOW, we must hunt their kind to extinction! Bring forth the high velocity rail guns and large flak cannons!
Thanks all

[Lasket]

So that's why my proximity frag AA didn't work. Good to know.

[AFLD]

Base bleed is not the part of a subcaliber projectile that captures gasses, that is called a sabot. Base bleed means the projectile shoots a little bit of gas outside it's rear as it flies through the air. This creates a little pocket the air streams around as it flies, reducing drag significantly. The tradeoff is it makes the round heavier, which is why in game you see more benefit for larger rounds (where losing drag is a bigger deal than adding a bit of weight) as opposed to smaller rounds (which don't deal with much drag but fly faster with less weight/more charge instead.

IRL sabots are often used on tank or sometimes autocannon projectiles. Also I think some shotgun/flechette rounds have used them. OTOH base bleed is used for larger, long range projectiles like artillery or naval artillery rounds.

[Redstorm]

Holy Necro Batman!

[Enderminion]

İlk olarak Zourin tarafından gönderildi:

Something, more specific to the mechanics, is that the caliber (inappropriately termed "gauge")

WRONG, the caliber of a naval gun is how much longer the barrel is then the bore (ex: the 3"/50 caliber M1918 naval gun has a barrel that is 50* longer then the bore of the cannon)

[FourGreenFields]

İlk olarak Enderminion tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Zourin tarafından gönderildi:

Something, more specific to the mechanics, is that the caliber (inappropriately termed "gauge")

WRONG, the caliber of a naval gun is how much longer the barrel is then the bore (ex: the 3"/50 caliber M1918 naval gun has a barrel that is 50* longer then the bore of the cannon)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliber
If you're going to scream stuff at people, at least look the term up in Wikipedia. Might not be the most accurate source, but I'd be quite surprised if it was wrong on such a basic level.