Custom/Advanced Cannon ammo useful info/guide. (Where/when to use what)

[Admiral Obvious]

I was thinking of making a guide for this, but instead I'll just babble on about it here. Explaining real world stuff, and application in game. As well as give you guys some ideas on what to use.

If you can't get a shot loaded into your clips, check to make sure that your shot isn't too wide or too long to be loaded. A good way to fix this if it does happen is manually set the bore size to ensure that the shot isn't too big (as 8m clips are either, A, not in game yet, or B, broke in the dev build). Verify the size the shot must be in order to fit into a 4m rack for example, and set the max bore size to equal that value.

Currently the game only has gunpowder fired shells, this is the only way to propel a shot from an advanced cannon.

The base bleeder makes the round go a bit faster (I think, not in game, can't remember). Yes, the base bleeder is a part of the shell that fits the bore of the gun making sure that no gasses manage to pass in front of the shot as it's pushed forwards. In the real world these are used commonly on APDS, and APCR shells (both sabot), since they are usually half the size of the bore itself.

Shell types can vary quite a lot, but in general there are things you shouldn't/can't use together. For example, you REALLY shouldn't use a Sabot head with a HE body, because A, that's not how it works in real life, and B, the explosive power will be very weak (although if used correctly, very useful).

A few shell designs you should try.

The APHE round. For this type of shot, you'd need at least 4 shell parts, but longer is probably better, since this shot requires penetration of the target structure to be useful. If you combine an AP head, with a HE (with fragmentation if you feel dirty) body, and a penetration fuse in between, you get a very powerful (and back in the day, conventional) shot. I would recommend using the solid AP head over the composite head, since the composite head might shatter on particularly tough targets preventing the purpose of internal detonation.

Solid AP. This one is a fairly common sense round, and it could work on pretty much every gun you build, unless you have a particularly stumpy barrel. These are simple, and are made simply to put a large hole, about the size of the round into the target. The shot should be entirely AP body, potentially with an AP or Composite cap. An AP round if made correctly will actually shatter once the shot penetrates the hull of the target, ideally spreading additional shrapnel throughout the target, and possibly bounce off the back to do more damage. If done "wrong" the shot won't penetrate the target and do nothing, or, the even more fun "wrong" way is the shot passes clean through, largely doing nothing, unless it hits something important. Generally, a longer shot is better, because once the shot reaches a certain point in width, it doesn't benefit the shot, and in fact can damage it's penetration ability (which may not be a bad thing).

Why use Hollow Point? Well, in the case above, with the AP round over penetrating the target, a hollow point head can mitigate a whole lot of this issue, as the head mashes against the armor of the target, and directs additional force to the structure itself by bunting itself as it hits. These shells are known as armor piercing capped rounds (APC for short), and generally are designed to defeat armor sloping more than a standard AP round with a solid sharp head. They actually put a bigger hole in the structure than a standard AP round as a result too.

HESH (Squash). This is an unusual type of shell in that it's actually not specifically meant to blow a hole into the armor, but instead make a very large dent, shooting parts of the armor off into the (mostly) empty hull. On the outside, firing these won't look like they do much, but thats not the point of a squash head shell. The squash head shell is intended to inflict more INTERNAL damage than EXTERNAL, if fired at the right spot, it will detonate ammo or fuel. Usually the size of HESH doesn't matter, but bigger is better in terms of HE. A small HESH shell will still deliver SOME shrapnel, even if it is harmless. Large HESH shells are a good idea though, as it's much more likely to blow parts off the hull. Ideally a HESH shell is built entirely out of HE.

HEAT (Shaped Charge). This is pretty much identical compared to HESH in terms of design, but with a different type of head. A HEAT shell is designed to direct all the explosive force forward instead of meshing against the armor. It will burn it's way through very thick armor, and also damage the area around it (it's still not a HE shell though).

Flak/High Explosive round. These can be made of shells of pretty much any size, and will work differently depending on the intended design. Any HE round can, and will detonate on contact with a target, without a fuse (in game at least, that's not how it really works, we need a pressure fuse head for this to be accurate). Flak cannons however are designed so that they will still work, even after a near miss. It is recommended to either use a proximity fuse, or a timed/altitude fuse. For the proximity fuse to work, you will need a laser targeting system, for a timed fuse, it will just work. Ideally, while configuring your flak portion of the shell (fragmentation), it's recommended to either set the burst to go 90 degrees (all fragments go mostly forward) especially on proxy fuses, or 180 degrees (fragments go everywhere) on timed fuses.

Straight up HE. As a general rule with HE, bigger is better. It doesn't matter how fast the shell goes if it's vaporized the moment it hits the target. In fact, most nations in the real world use "stump" barrels for very large HE/HEAT cannons. At the moment, I haven't discovered how to make a strictly HE round, since all shells must be capped (and as said above, there is no pressure fuse head). Of course, in game, you can manipulate your gun to get high velocity, massive HE cannons, but velocity doesn't do anything influencing how much damage a HEAT/HE warhead will deal.

Sabot. Sabot is quite overused by people, especially when they try and build railguns. I know exactly why they do, and I can tell you why it is a bad idea to use Sabot over AP in a railgun. Sabot rounds are sub caliber munitions, which once their casing falls off, make them about half the size of the bore itself. In game, also, sabot rounds don't fragment, instead they just pass through whatever they hit, sometimes not even dealing damage (might be a bug). Velocity is not the only factor to be considered when building a shell. Sabot rounds are mainly intended to be used within conventional cannons in the case that their "standard" armor piercing ammo fails, as the extra velocity helps give the extra punch the shot needs to overcome the armor of the target. It's also worth noting that sabot rounds CAN bounce off things, a bit more often than regular AP rounds can, and it makes it inferior against extreme sloping (like a 1x4 ramp).

What do I recommend for the railgun then? An APC round. Maybe with a penetration depth HE or Frag charge mixed in. With a proper railgun, velocity will very much help the soft head spread the energy of its velocity through the target, similar to the way a HESH shell does, and will usually deal significantly more damage than a shot that is effectively half the size, that doesn't fragment.

EMP warheads are a bit unusual when used in cannons. Although they work rather well when built appropriately. As a general rule again with an EMP, like HE bigger is usually better, especially if you are trying to overload a shield. However, many fast firing, very small EMP shots will slowly destabilize a shield if enough hits come close. When building an EMP warhead, I'd recommend using a standard AP head, and add a fuse that activates when the shot is bounced (forgot what it's called, you will know what mean though). The moment it hits the shield, and bounces, it will set off the EMP charge, usually disabling the shield for a short while. Allowing for your other shots to get in, as well as probably doing some colateral damage to the AI, and other EMP affected parts.

WIP, will edit in a bit.

[bigoakley02]

that was a lot of info. very informative, thank you

[Admiral Obvious]

Originally posted by alexia:

could you add a part where theres info on how big the shell and loader and mag of the adv cannon should be please?

Im still working that out myself, but so far, length of the shot is dictated by how many pieces of shell customizer you place, and width is determined by cannon size. So far, I think the mag is additive, so if you add the length and width together, and it's greater than 1, it would become a 2m mag size shell, less that, or equal to 1 would make it a 1m size shell.

[Admiral Obvious]

Did a small update.

[Jinhong91]

HEAT works quite well against shields in my experience, especially if the caliber is large and combined with an inertia fuse.

I guess it could be countered with a spaced shield or shield that extends out further but I haven't seen many ships using it.

[Admiral Obvious]

Originally posted by Jinhong91:

HEAT works quite well against shields in my experience, especially if the caliber is large and combined with an inertia fuse.

I guess it could be countered with a spaced shield or shield that extends out further but I haven't seen many ships using it.

In all honesty, it shouldn't. That's not how a shaped charge is supposed to work. It's probably better off being a straight up HE charge, throw a big enough bomb, and it will get through anything.

IRL, the HEAT jet would start to scatter, making it less effective the farther away the target armor is. It will still deal damage, although not really. I think what's causing your damage is just the massive ammount of HE in a 2m/4m shell, no shield (that I can conceive of) can stop the pressure wave from a particularly big HE round.

[Zourin]

Something, more specific to the mechanics, is that the caliber (inappropriately termed "gauge") of the cannon dictates the size of the shell, not the ammo customizer. This can be a big reason why the numbers in the customizer won't line up with what you're seeing during test-fires.

The ammo customizer lets you view the stats for a particular caliber, but doesn't SET the caliber. If your cannon says it can fire .40m shells, it will load (or try to, depending on the length of the shell at that size) .40m shells, even if you wanted the stats for a .32m shell.

This is why you have to set the "gauge limit" on the weapon itself, because otherwise it may be firing shells that are automatically sized to be larger than you wanted, resulting in slower ROF or a failure to load ammunition.

[rditto48801]

I don't use Sabot with Railguns.
When I do use Sabots (which is rarely), it's with smaller setups that have a good rate of fire.

Prefer the Compsite nose (biggest speed boost with no warhead penalty), with HE Warhead, Frag Warhead, Penetration Fuse, and a few solid warhead bodies... and no gunpowder.
A true railgun, which hits hard, and requires naps between shots to recharge 400k energy.
200mm going 700+m/s.

Shell Length is simple to figure out.
Shell diameter x number of parts = shell length.
So a 20cm round using rounds made with 3 ammo customizers (6 parts) would be 120cm (1.2m) long.


@Zourin
In naval terms, caliber is not the term for bore/shell diameter, it is the term for the barrel length.
For an example, a 5in (127mm) 38 caliber gun (such as used on on many WWII ships like Destroyers), the caliber refers to the barrel being 38 times longer than the bore/shell diameter.

[Zourin]

Originally posted by rditto48801:

I don't use Sabot with Railguns.

@Zourin
In naval terms, caliber is not the term for bore/shell diameter, it is the term for the barrel length.
For an example, a 5in (127mm) 38 caliber gun (such as used on on many WWII ships like Destroyers), the caliber refers to the barrel being 38 times longer than the bore/shell diameter.

interesting!

[rditto48801]

Yes, it is interesting.
Which can be confusing since firearms use caliber as a measure diameter compared to an inch (.50 caliber being a half inch/12.7mm, the 7.62mm from stuff like the AK-47 is .30 caliber, the 5.56mm of the M-16 is .22 or .223 caliber).
While looking online a gauge for bore diameter, it is generally used in things like shotguns, with gauge coming from a system not measuring the barrel itself, but relating to the weight (in fractions of a pound) of a lead ball the bore size would fit. (12 guage having a 1/12th pound lead ball, 20 guage being 1/20th pound lead ball, 8 gauge being 1/8th pound/2 ounce lead ball)

So I have no idea how the present gauge system in FtD fits in.

[Admiral Obvious]

Originally posted by rditto48801:

Yes, it is interesting.
Which can be confusing since firearms use caliber as a measure diameter compared to an inch (.50 caliber being a half inch/12.7mm, the 7.62mm from stuff like the AK-47 is .30 caliber, the 5.56mm of the M-16 is .22 or .223 caliber).
While looking online a gauge for bore diameter, it is generally used in things like shotguns, with gauge coming from a system not measuring the barrel itself, but relating to the weight (in fractions of a pound) of a lead ball the bore size would fit. (12 guage having a 1/12th pound lead ball, 20 guage being 1/20th pound lead ball, 8 gauge being 1/8th pound/2 ounce lead ball)

So I have no idea how the present gauge system in FtD fits in.

I have a feeling that the gauge is set in the context of aircraft/tank cannons, where bore width is what determines the value of measurement, but measures out in context of MM, like how artillery cannons are measured in width. A 122mm shell is always going to be 122mm wide, and an APDS shell, even though it's meant to fit a 122mm gun, being half the bore will still be called a 122mm shot instead of being called a 66mm, AP shell.

[Blue22111]

You should make this a propor guide instead of a discussion post.

That would make it easyer to access while in game and make it so that the guice can be favorited.

[Admiral Obvious]

Originally posted by Blue22111:

You should make this a propor guide instead of a discussion post.

That would make it easier to access while in game and make it so that the guice can be favorited.

I've thought about it. I've written very many guides before about other games, so it shouldn't be hard for me. I just like to have screenshots available first. I know my balistics, but I'm fairly new to FtD, and I don't exactly know how shields play into the new cannons yet (or even build one (a shield), as I can't find which category the generator block is under, along with a few other things), nor really how EMP works.

[epicpantsryummy]

Why is this not a guide? I'd favourite it in a heart-beat! :)

[Admiral Obvious]

Ya know what? First moment I get a chance to, I will add a guide on the subject.

[rditto48801]

Originally posted by Admiral Obvious:

Originally posted by Blue22111:

You should make this a propor guide instead of a discussion post.

That would make it easier to access while in game and make it so that the guice can be favorited.

I've thought about it. I've written very many guides before about other games, so it shouldn't be hard for me. I just like to have screenshots available first. I know my balistics, but I'm fairly new to FtD, and I don't exactly know how shields play into the new cannons yet (or even build one (a shield), as I can't find which category the generator block is under, along with a few other things), nor really how EMP works.

The Generator? You mean for engine power and recharging electric motor batteries? I think it is under Engines, with all the other custom engine parts. Either that or with the electric motor parts.
I am not sure what they are needed for adv cannon wise, as the rail gun batteries have their own chargers that draw power strait from engine power as far as I can tell.