CRAM = OP

[Imp0815]

I dont know why and when but CRAM's just became totally OP. I did not play FtD for at least Two years and in my old days APS where THE ♥♥♥♥. You could wreak nearly all Premade Faction ships with APs shells. they melted like butter. Now i test my designes and all of them just cost thrice as much and barly even scratch the pre-made-designes. And the only major thing i noticed is all of them use toatlly Overkill CRAM setups. For example i use the Treadstone as a benchmark aganist my land vehicles and i dont know what i'm doing wrong but the 180k Treadstone just kills my 200k APS based land ship with two salvos. These 3m wide Crams shells are redicules and i will not eat up this balance issu and start building stupidly large CRAM setups on my designes. I rather stop playing! Crams are a relic from the past and need to be removed or brough down to APS lvl with a Max diameter of 500mm!

[FourGreenFields]

But the patch that is meant to be released today to overhaul CRAMs to make them not [Steam's lovely hearts] isn't out yet. (Or well, to make small CRAMs less [Steam's lovely hearts] anyway)

Did you just use APS from two yers ago without adjusting them, then compare them to fridge-launchers in the one situation fridges are good (killing oversized [Steam's lovely hearts])?

[Imp0815]

Originally posted by FourGreenFields:

But the patch that is meant to be released today to overhaul CRAMs to make them not [Steam's lovely hearts] isn't out yet. (Or well, to make small CRAMs less [Steam's lovely hearts] anyway)

Did you just use APS from two yers ago without adjusting them, then compare them to fridge-launchers in the one situation fridges are good (killing oversized [Steam's lovely hearts])?

I did build new APS with better Tetris. And the Fridge Launching is quit fitting. CRAMs need to be nerf so they represent what they are ment to be: The stepping stone to get to APS. Not the wonky grandfather baby that shoots Cow Sized Projectiles 4000m accurate for nearly no cost into your 20h+ Designe to one hit it. I just could take my 250k designe scrap all the APS "*MEMES*"TM and fill it with CRAMs and BAM it would be just as, if even not, more Effectvie than the 180k CRAM tank.

[Silamon]

Cram is supposed to be an alternative to APS, not a predecessor for them. Aps is still miles better right now because they can actually hit things moving faster than .5 m/s and have rofs higher than 2 rpm

[Eudaimonia]

Different tools for different jobs. Of course one is going to be better at the job that it's meant to do, compared to the tools not designed to do that job. There are also missiles, lasers and PAC, but you're just straight up ignoring them for some reason.

Everything is supposed to be as good as an alternative as all the others, there is no hierarchy of things being better than others.

[3 Crab Fish Sauce]

Originally posted by Silamon:

Cram is supposed to be an alternative to APS, not a predecessor for them.

This.
CRAM is a hammer, APS is a scalpel.

[Imp0815]

Originally posted by Silamon:

Cram is supposed to be an alternative to APS, not a predecessor for them. Aps is still miles better right now because they can actually hit things moving faster than .5 m/s and have rofs higher than 2 rpm

If you theorize and think a bit about how game development works you should realize that CRAM is the first iteration of a Module Based weapon system. It's the proof of Concept of the APS we got later down the line. That CRAM is still in the game is, as far as i see it, how simple it is compared to APS. Its the tutorial variant of the APS. CRAM should have been removed but for some reason it was kept and now we have to deal with a with a a system that outperforms APS in most cases with much less Cost and Work involved of setting up.

[FourGreenFields]

Originally posted by Imp0815:

If you theorize and think a bit about how game development works you should realize that CRAM is the first iteration of a Module Based weapon system. It's the proof of Concept of the APS we got later down the line. [...]CRAM should have been removed but for some reason it was kept

Not really, but not entirely wrong.
CRAMs reused the old Custom Cannon parts, yes. But those weren't really CRAMs. CRAMs were adjusted to be balanced compared to APS... which initially went poorly, making CRAMs significantly worse. Since the APS overhaul it's somewhat balanced.

Originally posted by Imp0815:

and now we have to deal with a with a a system that outperforms APS in most cases with much less Cost and Work involved of setting up.

No. Just...
We have to deal with a highly-specialised system that only works if the target is nearly immobile and/or ridiculously big. And performs horribly in every other case. Making APS the go-to for most situations.

[Imp0815]

Originally posted by FourGreenFields:

We have to deal with a highly-specialised system that only works if the target is nearly immobile and/or ridiculously big. And performs horribly in every other case. Making APS the go-to for most situations.

How would you kill a OW Treadstone with an APS only setup without exceeding the cost of 180k Mats?

[Ashardalon]

i would like to see your cram AA system

[Imp0815]

Originally posted by Ashardalon:

i would like to see your cram AA system

Touché, so APS should be named AAPS instead? And for how long? If the Targed gets big enough CRAM will be able to hit it. And as far as we know BIGGER=BETTER in FTD.

[FourGreenFields]

Originally posted by Imp0815:

Originally posted by FourGreenFields:

We have to deal with a highly-specialised system that only works if the target is nearly immobile and/or ridiculously big. And performs horribly in every other case. Making APS the go-to for most situations.

How would you kill a OW Treadstone with an APS only setup without exceeding the cost of 180k Mats?

Step 0: Move
Step 1: CRAMs, maybe big missiles (would have to check for the thing's countermeasures)

Originally posted by FourGreenFields:

We have to deal with a highly-specialised system that only works if the target is nearly immobile and/or ridiculously big.

[Imp0815]

Originally posted by FourGreenFields:

Originally posted by Imp0815:

How would you kill a OW Treadstone with an APS only setup without exceeding the cost of 180k Mats?

Step 0: Move
Step 1: CRAMs, maybe big missiles (would have to check for the thing's countermeasures)

Originally posted by FourGreenFields:

We have to deal with a highly-specialised system that only works if the target is nearly immobile and/or ridiculously big.

Yes but
--->"APS only setup"
Still - How?
If APS is the ADVANCED Projectile System it should mean its more ADVANCED than CRAM thus it should out Perform CRAMs which it does not for its Cost and Effort. Hell you can't even have the same Shell Diameter as CRAM. APS stops at 500mm for some reason and CRAM does not. Even if you want to you can't get the same Insane Performance you get out of CRAMS with APS. And CRAMs are straight out boring and Fanatsyland Material. Just stack Blocks untill you get big booms no matter what. I feel like the angry guy in the *brrr* meme.
"NOOOOO you cant just stack babys-first-gun-modules for 180k untill you get a 4m wide shells that onehits my 250k Heavy Armor APS 20h+ effort designe!" -- "HA HA CRAM GOES BIG BOOOOOOOOOM"

[FourGreenFields]

Originally posted by Imp0815:

Originally posted by FourGreenFields:

Step 0: Move
Step 1: CRAMs, maybe big missiles (would have to check for the thing's countermeasures)

Yes but
--->"APS only setup"

Originally posted by FourGreenFields:

We have to deal with a highly-specialised system that only works if the target is nearly immobile and/or ridiculously big.

Originally posted by Imp0815:

If APS is the ADVANCED Projectile System it should mean its more ADVANCED than CRAM thus it should out Perform CRAMs

It does, for allmost any situation.

[Ashardalon]

planes or anything going more then 15ms
crams also have a cap to size and there is a cap to shell speed

yes if your fighting giant, unmoving, simple block of layered heavy armor take crams
if your fighting something more advanced your going to need aps

try to build a cram craft that beats the candela
its pretty big so should be easy

[Salami Tsunami]

Originally posted by Imp0815:

Originally posted by FourGreenFields:

Step 0: Move
Step 1: CRAMs, maybe big missiles (would have to check for the thing's countermeasures)

Yes but
--->"APS only setup"
Still - How?
If APS is the ADVANCED Projectile System it should mean its more ADVANCED than CRAM thus it should out Perform CRAMs which it does not for its Cost and Effort. Hell you can't even have the same Shell Diameter as CRAM. APS stops at 500mm for some reason and CRAM does not. Even if you want to you can't get the same Insane Performance you get out of CRAMS with APS. And CRAMs are straight out boring and Fanatsyland Material. Just stack Blocks untill you get big booms no matter what. I feel like the angry guy in the *brrr* meme.
"NOOOOO you cant just stack babys-first-gun-modules for 180k untill you get a 4m wide shells that onehits my 250k Heavy Armor APS 20h+ effort designe!" -- "HA HA CRAM GOES BIG BOOOOOOOOOM"

Advanced doesn't mean better.

Every shell type for CRAM is garbage, except for HE spam. And, as everybody's stated, they're obscenely slow.

However, with that being said, there's some valid points. (In my own humble opinion, of course)

So, of course, here comes my obligatory 'I could do it better' suggestions

- CRAM has virtually no drawbacks, which is a problem. Meanwhile, APS has all the drawbacks. CRAM is cheap, doesn't explode when destroyed, can provide insane burst DPS for demolishing big vehicles, and has pretty much no ammo cost. Meanwhile, APS is expensive, fragile, shell racks explode when destroyed to spectacular effect, suck down ammo like beer on St. Patty's Day, and aren't all that good at shredding big targets.

- APS ammo requirements should be reduced. Especially for small caliber shells. I've got little 20 block AA guns that use as much ammo as a battleship killing CRAM cannon.

- CRAM ammo boxes should explode when hit. This is just downright stupid that they are destroyed with zero effect. If you're going to hamstring APS by making them glorified self destruct switches, then CRAMs should be vulnerable too. Particle cannons also pose dangers when damaged, I should add.

- I'm not the biggest fan of the idea, but bumping the max APS bore up to 1 meter could solve a lot of problems. Though that would kind of remove CRAM as a viable alternative.


Right now, CRAMs are making the game not fun. It's less about design, and more about building big, derpy blocks of floating armor covered in big, derpy cannons that shoot big, derpy shells at each other.

At the moment, APS is weak against big, derpy armor. And before everybody jumps on me, let me qualify that. Yes, APS has some very strong anti armor stuff. But an APS gun big enough to do that sort of damage is likely going to destroy its entire vehicle if it explodes. It's going to be expensive, use a ton of ammo. And since big derpy armor is slow moving, CRAM would be more effective against it anyway.

Lasers used to be insanely OP since there was no real rate of diminishing returns for doomlasers. And they'd target right for the ammo stores and AI blocks. Since the targeting changes, they're meh. They do a lot of surface damage, and are great for swatting down small, mobile vehicles. Against big derpy armor...

Same for particle cannons. often It'll waste an entire ten second charge volley from my PC broadside to utterly destroy a piece of sail.

Missiles are so insanely expensive now, both in terms of ammo costs and resource requirements, that they're not even really practical for use in campaign. (other than for flares and decoys) Jumbo size missiles are great for sniping enemy battleships, but... as always, CRAM does it better.

And so, in summary. There's not any incentive for clever designs anymore. Brick of armor + CRAM batteries = win the game. Especially for campaign, since all the challenging vehicles are now the ones with big derpy armor and big derpy cannons.