noob - armored metal hulls problems

[VladK02]

After a week of playing I progressed from wooden rafts to something approaching modern ships, but now i have several flotation-related problems.

If i wish to do a double- or triple-thick metal hull wall, and dress the sub-surface parts in an armor skirt (like WWII dreads, vs torpedoes and penetrating shells), hull strength is great, combat simulations vs Ai are great, ship can take a very serious beating, but 3 problems.

here is screenshot, by the way
https://gyazo.com/014b29add54f3f22d456907b7e6efeba

1) not enough flotation power. Armor skirt is heavy. Add the weapons systems, fuel, ammo, the deck structures, and thing is barely floating. I have to add multiple layers of wood to the outside of the hull to keep it afloat. You can see wood and armor skirt in screenshot. Solutions are, to my mind, make ship deeper, or wider? Cant make it longer, armor skirt weight would scale proportionally; increase width aor debth, and thing will turn even slower....its allready slow as a brick...

2) Ship looks cool, but I cant get the balance right. Nose always dips down, because of the way it narrows towards the front, it has less air to float with. I tried all sorts of balancing stuff, but even with everything (ammo, fuel etc) in the back, nose dips down. Solution is what, make a longer hull? I think my ship is to short. Center of mass is allready in the back, but still ship lists forward. Or prop the nose up with a section of wood underneath? Looks horrible...

3) Turning and speed. it turns like a whale, and i cant get it fast then 12 m/s. I dont understand why, I tried stacking a PILE of large props all over the hull (including to help with turning), there are diminishing returns looks like. This i cant figure out, why the game has only a crappy wooden rudder. i need several oversized METAL rudders lol, to make it turn quickly.

So questions for you pros: how do you build large hulls with such heavy armor without having them sink, how you keep your sharp pointy noses from listing down, and how you get speed and turning? Whats the balance in this game, betweel length, width and height of the hull, as well as armor it can carry? How big and in what proportion it has to be to carry 2-3 layers of metal and an armor skirt?

[An Ning]

1) How to avid sinking
Compartments with air pumps. Wood lining along the bottom of the top deck. No holes.

2) How to keep the nose down
Hydrofoils, thrusters on the deck, or heliblades

3a) How to get speed
have the hull go down deeper at the middle than at the back, add in props as you go (only propellers in line with each other will block thrust)

3) How to get high turn rate
1- have a hull that isn't very long
2- have propellers/ion thrusters on the sides acting as thrusters
3- have a set of large props on spinblocks (in the bow and stern) that activate (turn) when a turn is ordered

[FourGreenFields]

Originally posted by An Ning:

1) How to avid sinking
Compartments with air pumps. Wood lining along the bottom of the top deck. No holes.

Alloy works better for that (lighter, and sturdier), but is more expensive.


One thing that probably generates loads of drag on your design are the props sticking out at the bottom. Either add 4m slopes in front of them, or place them one block higher up.
And your entire front hull should be covered with 4 metre slopes/corners, or 2 metre wedges.

I found that ~2 rudders are enough for anything I build really. Might be an issue with the rudders being too close to CoM or something.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=701162118
^May help with poor front/back balance. Either way, sloping both bow and stern will help.
I looked up the hull shape of the Bismarck (because I have a book about her, you could prob use any other capital ship too) and copied it. Great balance (unless 40m barrels on 3 triple turrets...), stability, and speed (>15m/s with 2-4 props, depending on size of the ship). Also lowish draft (~9 metres for a full-sized battleship with 3m metal armour).


It may simply be that a ship of that size is too small to be this heavily armoured, have a low-drag bow, be balanced, and armed.

[capnguts]

You can add internal dedi heli blades for lift. (Make sure motor drive is 10.)

You can add them near the front for nose lift.

That tiny wooden rudder scales to ship mass. I believe, if your ship has mass 10k then rudders will produce 10k force. Better than turning thrusters for heavy ships. Try a ruddder at rear and an upside down rudder at front to cancel rolling forces.

[Silamon]

Originally posted by VladK02:

After a week of playing I progressed from wooden rafts to something approaching modern ships, but now i have several flotation-related problems.

If i wish to do a double- or triple-thick metal hull wall, and dress the sub-surface parts in an armor skirt (like WWII dreads, vs torpedoes and penetrating shells), hull strength is great, combat simulations vs Ai are great, ship can take a very serious beating, but 3 problems.

here is screenshot, by the way
https://gyazo.com/014b29add54f3f22d456907b7e6efeba


2) Ship looks cool, but I cant get the balance right. Nose always dips down, because of the way it narrows towards the front, it has less air to float with. I tried all sorts of balancing stuff, but even with everything (ammo, fuel etc) in the back, nose dips down. Solution is what, make a longer hull? I think my ship is to short. Center of mass is allready in the back, but still ship lists forward. Or prop the nose up with a section of wood underneath? Looks horrible...

I had a similar problem with one of my designs, to keep the nose out of the water, I placed a single large propellor on the bottom of the ship facing down, and set 2 ACBs near it with range just enough to cover the one propellor.
One is "if altitude less than -8, set propulsion to 1" and one is "if altitude greater than -4, set propulsion to 0". It seems to work quite well, and the ship can still use reverse gear (if you use hydrofoils like the first commenter mentioned, you have to make sure your ship is always moving forward or the hydrofoil will have the opposite effect)

[Daya.Mar.Sana]

Actually the issue in that picture is that heavy armor band around the hull.
Heavy armor blocks are so much heavier then the other materials they are almost impractical to use. Simply laying multiple material types along side each other can provide enough armor for most things you will encounter.

-more technically
Heavy armor takes about 4 cubic meters of air to 1 cubic meter of heavy armor.. or if you want to wood or alloy its about 5 to 6 to 1... just compair the bouyancy values.

[Redux]

Heavy Armour is utilized a lot more in structures, fortresses, and some land vehicles. Can be used for some extra armour on turrets but it's usually not even worth using it for that.

The way to go is Metal plated reinforced alloy.

What I mean by this.. is generally 1 or 2 layers of metal armour, and behind that you do an alloy/metal mesh. Imagine grid paper, but the lines are metal and the white space is alloy.

It gives it decent structural strength, but it's both cheaper, and lighter than solid metal. The armour band on a ship should usually be pretty heavily built too. When you do superstructure and that on your ship, I wouldn't even use metal plating on it. Most of the time it's just aesthetic and not worth protecting much. Decking usually isn't important to overall integrity either so I would just use wood decks. They look better anyway. Might want 3m or 4m of metal armour, and depending on the ship you might want some heavy armour in there.

It's worth mentioning that you should use the heavy armour behind your metal armour. It's very, very expensive if you are going to have to continuously repair it, and it's still flagged as a structural block so it helps contibute to armour stacking.

If you're just starting out on building non-wooden ships, I would recommend just trying to build some iron clads. Metal plating on a wooden hull. There is a lot of DWG stuff like that, and they can be pretty durable. Then maybe try and build a catamaran.

[colonelmustardgas3]

1) Wider hull, air pockets (or helium pockets if you want it at sea level), and try to build it without a keel. A common misconception is that stacked pockets will help with flotation. What is going on here is like putting eggs in a cup of water, then stacking an egg on top of an egg on top of an egg. All the weight is held by the lowest egg. Similarly, the bottom air pocket is the one that determines how it will float. Adding others will mitigate the weight, but not enough to cancel out the extra weight of an additional hull level. It is more beneficial to have a single pocket level. If you want a two to three story ship, make a pontoon style ballast (two large pockets on either side, rather than middle). It will help with stability as well as buoyancy. If it sits too low, try making a helium pocket (it is way more buoyant than air, so putting it at where you want to be sea level helps a lot. Just make sure this pocket is well armored and protected). Honestly, the best thing to do is have a wide ship. Put 2-4 layers of wood or light alloy, and then put your armor over it. It is a more reliable form of floating, since it doesn't rely on having a sealed hull (it won't spell disaster if you are penetrated).

2) Nose can be product of one of two things: Nose is too heavy or propulsion is driving ship downward. If it is to heavy, it is a simple fix. Add a helium pocket in the front. The helium will try to rise out of the water more than air, so it should even out. If propulsion is the reason, that means that the propellers are higher than the center of mass. Try making it even to the CoM, so it will move flat.

3)It isn't the number of props, it is the engine and/or the drag. Try to smooth the hull. If it is largely flat at the front, or has a bowed shape, the boat is gonna have some hella drag. Also, try making the engine larger. Carburetors are the easiest way to increase output. Try to use Turbochargers and Superchargers wherever possible. They increase efficiency and help with consumption. It won't do much to output levels, but in the long run, they are very useful. Turning is a bit more complex. If you haven't already, add a rudder, even if it is only one. It helps tremendously with turning. Also, put rotational props ONLy on the front of the ship. Putting them in the middle doesn't help to turn at all. Putting it in the back gives it a very small turn base, so if it turned like a whale, this one will turn like an iceberg. Putting rotational props at the front and back will cause it to churn water. You do NOT want this.

Hoped this helped

P.S.-If you are dissatisfied with the rudder, you can always build your own. Use a spin block and some wings. Or just use a tail plane. Air parts are highly effective underwater and in the air. If you use wings, you will have to play with the Advanced Control Blocks and Spin Block Controllers a bit to link it with basic steering

[VladK02]

DWG stuff likes to shoot shells with some kind of fuse on them that act as a mine in the water... My problem is always that i dodge a few shells(or mines?) like that, then i run one of those things over, and rips a huge gash under the waterline. Even 2-block thick metal hulls get torn sometimes. Thats why i put the armor skirt around the hull, it works amazinly well. But, dat weight...

Armor mesh is a neat idea, lacing metal with alloys. Going to use that.

Also, helium pockets you say? How very, very interesting. I always wanted to drive a missile destroyer called Hinderburg MkII :)) How do i fill my ship with helium to the brim? Is it that baloon thing the Atlas NPC flyier has?

[Daya.Mar.Sana]

Actually in the air category for making helium baloons but obviously also works in water for Helium filled.

As to your mines problems, well those are easier to avoid either by simlpy having a thicker hull, use bigger blocks when possible first of all, and a second layer helps alot with that. Or simply start outranging them. I have seen a few torpedos from enemy ships so thats a thing to consider too.

Really the simplist of suggestions for you I can think of to deal with mines is making the ship more bouyant without air / helium pockets. Pretty hard to sink a wood log even if you keep drilling holes into it you know.

[capnguts]

The armor layers I like to use are heavy triangles behind metal beams with cheap wood slopes on the surface. I think the cheap wood repairs faster than more expensive blocks and it still gets the armor layering buff.

[Daya.Mar.Sana]

You are correct it does, however wood also has a much higher weight per block then alloy metal. (Not to mention less armor value)
A simple shield layering over your hull also helps to reduce the number of rounds that impact your hull, and you can do this with even as low as 2.0 shield power on reflect mode. I realize this isnt heavy armor or even armor at all, but since were talking about reducing repair times now and block weight, well it makes sense to me to point out that you should consider reducing the damage you take as well as armor.

[xchrisx88]

Originally posted by VladK02:

DWG stuff likes to shoot shells with some kind of fuse on them that act as a mine in the water... My problem is always that i dodge a few shells(or mines?) like that, then i run one of those things over, and rips a huge gash under the waterline. Even 2-block thick metal hulls get torn sometimes. Thats why i put the armor skirt around the hull, it works amazinly well. But, dat weight...

Armor mesh is a neat idea, lacing metal with alloys. Going to use that.

Also, helium pockets you say? How very, very interesting. I always wanted to drive a missile destroyer called Hinderburg MkII :)) How do i fill my ship with helium to the brim? Is it that baloon thing the Atlas NPC flyier has?

Helium seems to be really bad, I tried it once to make a blimp and it didnt even lift that high (no my blimp was not made of metal -.- )

with the mines I guess you just mean their missiles running out of fuel and your ship seems to run into it, dont forget you can see the enemy missiles in the map view as small red "diamonds"
just use Patrol Mode and move around them

[Goobs]

Originally posted by cheeki that breeki:

Originally posted by VladK02:

DWG stuff likes to shoot shells with some kind of fuse on them that act as a mine in the water... My problem is always that i dodge a few shells(or mines?) like that, then i run one of those things over, and rips a huge gash under the waterline. Even 2-block thick metal hulls get torn sometimes. Thats why i put the armor skirt around the hull, it works amazinly well. But, dat weight...

Armor mesh is a neat idea, lacing metal with alloys. Going to use that.

Also, helium pockets you say? How very, very interesting. I always wanted to drive a missile destroyer called Hinderburg MkII :)) How do i fill my ship with helium to the brim? Is it that baloon thing the Atlas NPC flyier has?

Helium seems to be really bad, I tried it once to make a blimp and it didnt even lift that high (no my blimp was not made of metal -.- )

with the mines I guess you just mean their missiles running out of fuel and your ship seems to run into it, dont forget you can see the enemy missiles in the map view as small red "diamonds"
just use Patrol Mode and move around them

I've used helium in sealed compartments in a boat. Might not be enough to float a blimp, but it's much more bouyant than air!

[capnguts]

Originally posted by Kuru:

I've used helium in sealed compartments in a boat. Might not be enough to float a blimp, but it's much more bouyant than air!

Science may be required. Depending on how it is coded, helium may provide a constant lift force even above sea level, but a much smaller one than the buoyancy force of air which only applies below sea level. Helium may or may not 'double dip' and get lift plus underwater buoyancy.

[Goobs]

Originally posted by capnguts:

Originally posted by Kuru:

I've used helium in sealed compartments in a boat. Might not be enough to float a blimp, but it's much more bouyant than air!

Science may be required. Depending on how it is coded, helium may provide a constant lift force even above sea level, but a much smaller one than the buoyancy force of air which only applies below sea level. Helium may or may not 'double dip' and get lift plus underwater buoyancy.

Realistically, maybe. I'm not too well educated, thanks to a former president's feelgood education policies.

In the game though, helium seems to provide a flat amount of bouyancy, regardless of altitude. And all I know is, that bouyancy is much better than the air of sea level.