So Sub is the cheese of this game?

[Mighty Pancake]

Just asking for a general knowledge... of course I have my first fully working one finally figuring out the advanced command blocks and the settings with the deli blades... It stays very steady and steady in depth...

I just don't know how to do Ballasts that the normal submarine has. Seems much more advanced than the deli blade solution.

And well I have my most recent of my adventure submarine. which will be shown here too.

[Mighty Pancake]

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2563754824

[Mighty Pancake]

On a side note, is there a way to set the medium missile to go after targeted unit? Since Active radar trackers only work half the time else they try hitting an enemy that is miles away even when they don't have the fuel for it.

[Rufus Shinra]

You could go for laser guidance or remote guidance. As for ballasts, just compartimentalize your boat and set up the air pumps to react to hover, pitch and roll according to the compartment's position in the submarine, it's pretty easy overall. Finally, for the title question, submarines aren't necessarly "cheese", they simply need adequate answers, like my FREMM's ASW setup that fires 16 vertical-launched cluster rockets dropping 14 torpedoes and 6 sonar buoys in the vicinity of the enemy submarine from any range. Combine it with an ASW helicopter dropping torpedoes, CRAM depth charges and sonar buoys? Subs don't last long against it.

They have various weaknesses, such as low speed, vulnerability to supercavitating shells, weak detection, especially for passive sensors (no missile defence camera, no passive radar, no IR camera) and rely overwhelmingly on missiles/torpedoes to do their job. They cannot effectively use offensive or defensive laser systems either, meaning most of their anti-torpedo defence is interceptor-based. Oh, and HE does additional damage underwater too.

[Mighty Pancake]

so any competent player could out do any sub fleet, what of the designs in the game, do they get that hard or is it just so much power...

And well I do have an underwater cannon set up look at the pic, that is a Pac Cannon. Though its effectivness is a bit questionable since its accuracy sucks. Though enjoy taking out enemies from below with a broad side swarm of torpedos so long as I fire them off one side at a time. with said side facing the enemy.

[Rufus Shinra]

PAC aren't that great, especially in DPM and accuracy. Plus, you rely on very good targeting, which in a submarine means active sensors, so you're giving out precise targeting data to your enemy as well while you need to get in close to ensure hits. Not very survivable against decent ASW.

Also, submarines' first enemy are torpedoes, and whether they are sonar- or remote-guided, they rely on detecting the boat, so the smaller your signature is, the better. Therefore, facing the enemy head-on is quite a stronger strategy for submarines compared to broadsides. What is your anti-torpedo defence? How many layers of what systems?

[Mighty Pancake]

I am only starting with it... the Pac cannon for what it is give poor long range. okay medium and excellent close range which several kinds of enemies seems to favor close range so it sort of flips the table on them.

Right now as far as system layers? Are we talking how many sink systems I have? I relly on deli blades but each Deliblade altitude control has 2 ACBs controlling them, so in a way I guess each one would be a half layer? At most I have 2 layers for keeping down under besides the sheer weight which the displayed version of that sub is only the MK III variation, Working on the MK IV. As for missiles for now each has 1 missile controler, though I have 3 missile systems. a top one for harrassing ships above, and torpedo broad sides. which fare quire well all things considered. With that I am reworking the parascope so that it is more covered when down and hopefully will extend up enough to reach the surface from a longer distance down...

Considering this the third build of such I am getting better but no better at system layering for now.

Oh besides ACBs, I have pid which I leave to keep my ship from rolling or pitching too much.

[Mighty Pancake]

The only reason I have not gone to Advanced cannons is because I have not yet set up the room for building a big Advance cannon set up. As for anti torp and missles... I have yet to set up a distraction network.

[Mighty Pancake]

Anti missile, anti laser is somewhat covered by being 32 meters under the water.

[Rufus Shinra]

Originally posted by Mighty Pancake:

I am only starting with it... the Pac cannon for what it is give poor long range. okay medium and excellent close range which several kinds of enemies seems to favor close range so it sort of flips the table on them.

Right now as far as system layers? Are we talking how many sink systems I have? I relly on deli blades but each Deliblade altitude control has 2 ACBs controlling them, so in a way I guess each one would be a half layer? At most I have 2 layers for keeping down under besides the sheer weight which the displayed version of that sub is only the MK III variation, Working on the MK IV. As for missiles for now each has 1 missile controler, though I have 3 missile systems. a top one for harrassing ships above, and torpedo broad sides. which fare quire well all things considered. With that I am reworking the parascope so that it is more covered when down and hopefully will extend up enough to reach the surface from a longer distance down...

Considering this the third build of such I am getting better but no better at system layering for now.

Oh besides ACBs, I have pid which I leave to keep my ship from rolling or pitching too much.

By layers, I mean for the missile/torpedo protection system. A submarine should have at least two, the inner layer being correctly designed sonar decoys and the outer one interceptor torpedoes. Optionally, subs can go with CIWS using supercavitation shells or even a very short-ranged high-powered LAMS, but it's more of a gimmick at this point.

And, seriously, start tinkering with ballasts, they are infinitely more effective than dediblades for fine control. Ballast and dive surfaces are all you need for underwater navigation. Here is a simple example if you want to see the configuration (though the sub is obsolete by now, I've modified it a bit since then but am not in front of my computer ATM):

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2351362713

[Dragon]

Ballast tanks is actually really simple. All you need is main ballast tanks to control depth, ballast tanks on the sides to control roll and tanks on the front and rear to control pitch. Then configure ballast tank airpumps the same as you would configure dediblades/props.

Add multiple ballast tanks or compartmentalise them so that if one tank is breached, you don't lose control.

My sub is a bit too confusing so I'd rather not link it as an example (you can still check it out if you want) but, ballast tanks instead of props is more efficient and don't use any energy like in the case with props or motor-driven dediblades.

Guns on subs is the ultimate cheese so I don't use them. And probably never will so, I don't know much about that. But when it comes to defending against torpedoes and depth charges, interceptors and deep depth provide a good defense.

[Rufus Shinra]

Originally posted by Dragon:

Ballast tanks is actually really simple. All you need is main ballast tanks to control depth, ballast tanks on the sides to control roll and tanks on the front and rear to control pitch. Then configure ballast tank airpumps the same as you would configure dediblades/props.

Add multiple ballast tanks or compartmentalise them so that if one tank is breached, you don't lose control.

My sub is a bit too confusing so I'd rather not link it as an example (you can still check it out if you want) but, ballast tanks instead of props is more efficient and don't use any energy like in the case with props or motor-driven dediblades.

Guns on subs is the ultimate cheese so I don't use them. And probably never will so, I don't know much about that. But when it comes to defending against torpedoes and depth charges, interceptors and deep depth provide a good defense.

Depth charges aren't really a threat in FtD unless you really screwed up at some time. But yeah, the only thing to keep in mind with ballasts is to have the submarine's mass be close enough to its water displaçement so that empty ballasts make it float and flooded ones make it sink.

As for guns on submarines, I've had them in only one boat of mine, but they are designed to retract the hydrodynamic caps and attack enemies only when surfaced, mostly to deal with the small-medium ships and planes using a shell selection system.

[Mighty Pancake]

I would go with Ballasts however in the way that it seems to work I would have a bigger issuer than with the Deli blades... at least I can set the ACBs to make it go up or down in altitude. and right now my sub isn't like a conventional one. yes cause it is adventure mode I want to move up and down the four decks it has and go to the axilary rooms soon enough.

But with the room I made on the back I might start work on an Advance cannon and rework the front pac into the same thing. But it is things I am working with and for... And I will have to decide on that replacement soon enough. But will get the sonar and radar decoys.


On that, Can a sonar and radar decoy be on the same dummy missile or would it be better to have dedicated sonar and radar sticks?
then again being underwater makes my radar presences minimal.

[Rufus Shinra]

Originally posted by Mighty Pancake:

I would go with Ballasts however in the way that it seems to work I would have a bigger issuer than with the Deli blades... at least I can set the ACBs to make it go up or down in altitude. and right now my sub isn't like a conventional one. yes cause it is adventure mode I want to move up and down the four decks it has and go to the axilary rooms soon enough.

But with the room I made on the back I might start work on an Advance cannon and rework the front pac into the same thing. But it is things I am working with and for... And I will have to decide on that replacement soon enough. But will get the sonar and radar decoys.


On that, Can a sonar and radar decoy be on the same dummy missile or would it be better to have dedicated sonar and radar sticks?
then again being underwater makes my radar presences minimal.

A submarine with full internals isn't that exceptional, and ballasts are still needed for it. You can see here a three-deck submarine of mine with every single room for the crew and operation.

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/1780587767842499390/C9CE3D8B2EF2D1655A97E7A659A5B96DAF2EC4D6/?imw=5000&imh=5000&ima=fit&impolicy=Letterbox&imcolor=%23000000&letterbox=false

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2461096401

Hell, it makes things simpler since you've already made the compartments. As for decoys, better have dedicated ones, use towed sonar decoys sized according to your own submarine's sonar signature.

[Mighty Pancake]

Well this is a titch... Would it be better to rework the rail cannon which seems more draining on my resources than the Pac Cannon? That is what I am seeing, and thus far... I might just have to rewok the sabo heads and HE into the secondary explosive since the Rail cannon more or less punches throuhg but has no explosive force even with the explosive HE warhead being selected

[Rufus Shinra]

Sabot modules divide by 4 any payload due to them being subcalibre projectiles, so don't expect a serious bang. Turrets for underwater combat tend to be quite specialized and not exactly too effective unless you get some big stuff, and even then, it'll be worse than surface-based gunnery.