Would this Submarine work?

[Javelin99]

I know that detection systems are basically a pain for people trying to make "stealth" vehicles, because you always get detected anyway. However, if by using only wood and lead, or wood with a metal interior. [Metal and lead inside the sub, lead inside the sub if using one without metal.] With everything including propulsion covered in wood, would the enemy still easily detect it with no problems?

If not, would the same idea work for a regular ship?
I am of course going by the theory that most detection systems detect in a "line of sight" fashion, in which it just looks at something in FTD, say with a line to do so, and then knows what it is due to "returns". Thus would using wood mess around with that, because the "line of sight" is tampered due to wood? Or is wood just programmed to give off a regular return simply because of it being a large block?

Or would it only be tampered with at all if creating it entirely out of things like triangles, to make it into one oversized non-flat entity?

[SomberFlight]

they should still be able to detect heat.. and didn't sonars work with sound not sight?

[Javelin99]

Originally posted by Alexander:

they should still be able to detect heat.. and didn't sonars work with sound not sight?

Well FTD logic works differently to real life logic in alot of areas, so I tend to just ignore those. Heat would of course be problematic, and sonar does work around sound. But I already said in the OP that I am going by the theory of "line of sight" for "most" detection systems. Things like cameras.

But I am not considering things like heat, or sound, or like that. I am purely just going off design and materials.

[An Ning]

Radar does not work underwater, so there is no need to use things with low radar signatures like wood (unless you are worried about being struck before going under, as subs start on the surface in a fight).

As to being "stealth"... sadly, at the moment, there is no stealth for submarines, because visual sensors can detect submerged submarines and fire into the water with astounding accuracy to a depth of about 50 meters.

Also, active sonar (and sonobuoys, which also use active sonar) can detect any submerged vessel. So if they have either of these, you are detected.

So screw stealth. Use metal, use a bunch of props for speed, get some torpedo interceptors, try to stay at 2km, and get yourself a cushion of at least 70m of water above you.

[Javelin99]

Originally posted by An Ning:

Radar does not work underwater, so there is no need to use things with low radar signatures like wood (unless you are worried about being struck before going under, as subs start on the surface in a fight).

As to being "stealth"... sadly, at the moment, there is no stealth for submarines, because visual sensors can detect submerged submarines and fire into the water with astounding accuracy to a depth of about 50 meters.

Also, active sonar (and sonobuoys, which also use active sonar) can detect any submerged vessel. So if they have either of these, you are detected.

So screw stealth. Use metal, use a bunch of props for speed, get some torpedo interceptors, try to stay at 2km, and get yourself a cushion of at least 70m of water above you.

I call shenanigans of the highest order.

Who would of known if I just stood to the side of my ship, grabbed a camera, attached a very hair-thin string to it, and threw it into the ocean I cound detect a submarine. Sounds so genius, sounds so innovative, why haven't we developed this before?!?!?

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooo.

[Doombringer]

Okay here is how sonar actually works in game: It is underwater radar.
Anything with a high radar return above water will give a high sonar return underwater.
Blocks underwater increase sonar detection range (no effect on radar return), block above water increase radar detection range (no effect on sonar).

Detection works by looking at each of the six sides of your vehicle - every block seen increases detection range by it's cross-section:
Rubber 1
Alloy 2
Most Blocks 3
Metal/Stone 5
Heavy Armor 8
Passive Sensors 30
Active Sensors 100
(hint: use bouys that auto-fire whenever the last one runs out if you want to be stealthy)
(also rubber coated vehicles (with alloy slopes if you want to reduce drag))
Triangles are treated the same as any other block.

Also the way detection at angles work is wierd, it averages the visible sides and then divides by the square root of the number of visible side instead of using the square root of the sum of the squares, so you get cloverleaf detection 'circles' instead of circles...
Anyways, you can open detection viewer and see for yourself.

Note: the circles shown are the 50% detection range (where you have a 50% of being seen)
Also, the default settings have 10% auto-detect - turn that to 0% if you want real stealth...



Checking visual detection range - bad news, it's really hard to hide from cameras.
Being completely underwater reduces visual detection range to 61.636% of visual detection range when completely out of water.
In the middle of the night visual detection range is 68.187% of what it is in the middle of the day.
(underwater at night ~42% of normal detection range)
However, that detection range is still quite long. (>1km for a small sub)

Looks like every block adds (middle of the day, completely out of water) 29.833m to visual detection range... (or 12.538m underwater at night)

[Javelin99]

Originally posted by Doombringer:

Okay here is how sonar actually works in game: It is underwater radar.
Anything with a high radar return above water will give a high sonar return underwater.
Blocks underwater increase sonar detection range (no effect on radar return), block above water increase radar detection range (no effect on sonar).

Detection works by looking at each of the six sides of your vehicle - every block seem increases detection range by it's cross-section:
Rubber 1
Alloy 2
Most Blocks 3
Metal/Stone 5
Heavy Armor 8
Passive Sensors 30
Active Sensors 100
(hint: use bouys that auto-fire whenever the last one runs out if you want to be stealthy)
(also rubber coated vehicles (with alloy slopes if you want to reduce drag))
Triangles are treated the same as any other block.

Also the way detection at angles work is wierd, it averages the visible sides and the divides by the square root of the number of visible side instead of using the square root of the sum of the squares, so you get cloverleaf detection 'circles' instead of circles...
Anyways, you can open detection viewer and see for yourself.

Note: the circles shown are the 50% detection range (where you have a 50% of being seem)
Also, the default settings have 10% auto-detect - turn that to 0% if you want real stealth...

Cool.

Thanks m8y.

[An Ning]

Originally posted by Javelin99:

I call shenanigans of the highest order.

Who would of known if I just stood to the side of my ship, grabbed a camera, attached a very hair-thin string to it, and threw it into the ocean I cound detect a submarine. Sounds so genius, sounds so innovative, why haven't we developed this before?!?!?

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooo.

You're in a world where a ship 2x the size of a Nimitz-class aicraft carrier falling from 1000m reaches a terminal velocity of 15 m/s and you question how far away a camera can see a submarine underwater?

[Javelin99]

Originally posted by An Ning:

Originally posted by Javelin99:

I call shenanigans of the highest order.

Who would of known if I just stood to the side of my ship, grabbed a camera, attached a very hair-thin string to it, and threw it into the ocean I cound detect a submarine. Sounds so genius, sounds so innovative, why haven't we developed this before?!?!?

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooo.

You're in a world where a ship 2x the size of a Nimitz-class aicraft carrier falling from 1000m reaches a terminal velocity of 15 m/s and you question how far away a camera can see a submarine underwater?

YES

[SomberFlight]

i can't understand what the ♥♥♥♥ you're talking about javelin. using underwater cameras with... hair?.. sonars don't even work like a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ camera.

[Javelin99]

Originally posted by Alexander:

i can't understand what the ♥♥♥♥ you're talking about javelin. using underwater cameras with... hair?.. sonars don't even work like a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ camera.

Well for one your taking this very seriously, if you are really ranting about my earlier comment joking about attaching cameras to hair. I believe you need to take a day off to calm down.

For second, I didn't say sonars worked like cameras. My OP just said I had a theory about how "most" detection systems might work, and never said it was a fact. Considering I wasn't just talking about making a stealth sub, and how FTD isn't exactly the most realistic when it comes to detection. Also Doom's post not only gives me a general idea how it works, but basically gives me further reason to believe now that stealth in FTD is impossible.

This is literally unnecessary. :l

[Gespenter]

Anyone know if there is a way to make a stealthy bomber? i am currently making my own B2 Spirit and I was wondering if anyone has some advice

[Gespenter]

Nvm, found the guy who commented the block types and how sonar/radar picks them up. Shes made out of allooy so itll be fine

[Busts-A-Nut]

Wasn't Alloy perfect for stealth?

[FourGreenFields]

Originally posted by Nancok:

Wasn't Alloy perfect for stealth?

Rubber is better still, and that only matters for radar (maybe sonar too, don't know). And radar really isn't the issue for stealth, it's visual detection.

[Busts-A-Nut]

Originally posted by FourGreenFields:

Originally posted by Nancok:

Wasn't Alloy perfect for stealth?

Rubber is better still, and that only matters for radar (maybe sonar too, don't know). And radar really isn't the issue for stealth, it's visual detection.

Cameras are quite ♥♥♥♥♥♥ when detecting underwater targets, you won't be invisible, but at least you will most likely dodge half the shots