Small sub auxiliary weapon - your suggestions please

[BunnyOverkill]

I have made this small and relatively powerful sub, torpedoes are deadly, but dual 125mm advanced cannon is like peashooter. Can you suggest something better? Maybe different gauge, ammo, or completely scrap it and replace with different weapon?
Current shell has 8 parts - 4 gunpowder casings, cavitation base, 2x HE warhead body and squash head.
Keep in mind that it's fairly small sub, and the torps are not meant for fast or airborne targets, that's where auxiliary weapon kicks in. Recoil is an issue. Stability of sub is an issue. Otherwise, it's a nice sub with good punch, AI can pilot it fine and it keeps 50m underwater without problems. As with other subs, enemy torpedoes are the main danger.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1092833552

[luxon001]

use only 1 APS, increase gauge, set to 6 barrels (around 70mm), impact shells with sabot head and supercavitation, shred everything.

[BunnyOverkill]

I have tried sabot head, but the way submarine works, it impacts enemy ships at wrong angle and most shells ricocheted away.

[BunnyOverkill]

What about other weapon systems? Would lasers work?

[luxon001]

Originally posted by petrkovarik99:

What about other weapon systems? Would lasers work?

laseres have an enourmous deacrease in power when used underwater (and they are large and power consuming as well)

maybe you could use 5 block missles with the following components:fins,fins,fuel tank,fuel tank, short range thruster,one turn,target prediction guidance,EMP warhead,HE/frag warhead, active radar seeker. make sure the missles have ejectors and eject upwards.

[rditto48801]

Did you know Beltfed Autoloaders can be accessed when looking at them and pressing Q? The Beltfed autoloaders do reload on their own if enough time passes, and if wanted, you can set it lower than the default 60 seconds.

I have heard the Squash Head shells are poorly suited for use against wood targets.
Anything with shields will easily counter the shells.
Maybe try the HE nose?

Torpedo propellers have built in ejection capabilities, so you don't need ejectors for torpedoes.
So you can make the front torpedo launcher a little more compact and neat without needing the odd design to make room for ejectors.

Fins cause more drag the farther forward they are on a missile design. So unless going for visual appeal, I would suggest moving the forward torpedo fin toward the back, to squeeze a tiny extra bit of speed out of the torpedo. In my testing, I squeezed about 0.7 extra m/s speed out of the torpedoes by making such a change.

HE Warhead explosions are, iirc, centered directly on the warheads. So it might be wise to have the HE warheads closer forward, or else use a Proximity Fuse close to the front, since the HE blast will be centered on it, so the HE blast will be centered as close to the point of impact as possible. (personal opinion)

Magnets don't make to much sense on a torpedo unless they are dead in the water.. With using only 1,500 fuel per minute, torpedoes won't be running out of fuel, even with triple torpedo props for a single fuel tank, as the missile will 'time out' before it runs out of fuel.

I would suggest setting the torpedo ballast to something like 3-5m, because if they hop out of the water before they lock onto a target, they can loose target lock and become targets of anti-missile systems. (unless also intended for anti-sub use, then they are fine with neutral buoyancy settings)

The sub seems to roll when turning.
It might be due to your rudder being located a bit below the level of your subs Center of Mass.
What are the Ion Thrusters for? They don't seem to be setup to be used by the Advanced Controller. I am guessing you are going to set them up to allow for more quickly angling the nose up and down.


One thing I like on subs..
A very small missile launcher aft that 'releases' a 1m 'missile' with radar buoy and a ballast set for positive buoyancy. ACB is set to activate if any enemy is detected > 1m.
Since your turret guns can 'aim up', this would allow it some basic anti-air capability.
It also adds another way to detect targets, since active sonar alone is not the most accurate system for tracking targets for weapons like cannons at longer ranges.

I do like aquatic missiles on stuff like subs. Basically a hybrid missile and torpedo. Although not really needed since the sub doesn't dive to deep.

I do agree with luxon001's idea for mounting vertical launch missiles, aside from one little issue.
The limited vertical space only allowing for a 4m missile to be practically wedged in without expanding the hull.

I did manage to wedge in a vertical launch system to test out, just forward of the complex controller, with LWC located between the Advanced Controller and Wireless Snooper, the launchpads flush against the side walls on the floor, with connecters on the inner side. I removed the AI connectors below the air pump ACBs to make room for one of the ejectors for the 2nd of each launch pad, and reloacted the general cards there to another spot. The limited space meant I could only fit in 4m long missiles.
For missile design, I went for 2 Fin, variable thruster (2.0 ramp up, 500 thrust), 2 Fuel, One Turn, Explosive Warhead, Active Radar Seeker, and Guidance Delay set for 1.0. At 500 thrust, they have a max potential range of 1,600m and a top speed of a little over 100m/s. If you want speed, a thrust of 1,000 will top out at 130m/s, but range drops to about 1,100m.
LWC is set to ignore targets below -10m, minimal range 100m, max range 1,500m. (at 500 thrust).
It's not much due to limited space, but every little bit helps, and it provides basic anti-air capability.

It does open the possibility for a variant. You could make an alternate sub that strips out most of the forward torpedoes, and installs a number of short vertical launch missile launchers. It might be possible to still fit in a few torpedoes, perhaps centerline mount in a vertical stack.

One tweak I did for the torpedoes while toying with the design.
3 Fin, 2 Torpedo Props, Fuel, Ballast, 7 Explosive Warhead, Proximity Fuse (max angle, 2m range), Torpedo Sonar. It's faster and can better turn to intercept targets, and the Proximity Fuse ensures it will still go off at times the torpedo might otherwise glance off of a target. Frags aren't that spectacular unless against wooden ships. Even then, the bonus damage explosive warheads get underwater makes them a better choice for torpedoes in my opinion.
I tried an all frag version with limited success.

[BunnyOverkill]

@Rditto48801 : Well those ion thrusters are connected to PID, only used for neutral pitch. Ballast is for diving and keeping at 50m depth, which defeats most bombs, missiles and projectiles - and the projectiles that get that deep are usually too small and weakened and bounce off armor.
In previous design I used hydrofoil for pitch, but thrusters don't need moving ship.

For magnets, maybe I am wrong, but my previous torpedo design had big problem when it got close to target, most torpedoes missed. In my testing, magnets helped a lot, maybe it was just different initial conditions between tests, I will test again. Another change I did was adding regulator near the end, so they can fire at much longer ranges. Very useful, it allowed me to outrange enemy torpedoes.

Thanks for the tip about ejectors, sub now has 15 killer torpedoes, with .5s delay between each.

I have added 2x3 5m long vertical missiles according to your design, they are 1m out of hull, will test them against air. Wireless snooper is great, I detect all air thanks to it. I will work on your radar buoy idea, if I can pair it with sonar buoy I can switch my sub to be completely passive instead of active sonar.

Also, massive rework on AC gun, 6x83mm with half gunpowder, one supercavitation, sabot bodies and sabot health. At the very minimum armor penetration and speed are quite good.

I have made important discovery, you can have more then one ammo intakes on ammo loaders and ammo clips. As I use 6 belt feeders, it's extra important to reload those shells as fast as possible. With 25 ammo max in a clip, I can load 5 shells in 7.3 seconds instead of one ammo. Not all of them have the space to add so many ammo intakes, but it really speeds up reloading.
83mm gauge means I can have 12piece-long shells (100cm/12=8.33 gauge).

I didn't know explosives are stronger under water, that's why I had frags in front, with narrow cone . The idea was that frags would punch a hole in armor and explosives will get inside and cause havoc. I will test all the changes and update the design online ASAP.

[rditto48801]

I hadn't noticed there was a PID. I am guessing it is with the stuff behind the chair.

The missiles I put in for testing were 4m, so they were not sticking out of the hull.

15 of those 8m torpedoes now? Ouch. I (almost) feel sorry for it's targets.


A few things about missiles.
The longer a missile is, the more fins you need to maintain the same amount of turn rate as a shorter missile. (roughe example, an 8m missile needing 4 fins to turn as well as a 4m missile with 2 fins). Which is one reason I suggested upping the fin count to 3.
Explosive damage drops of over distance (also applies to shells). So warheads 'farther' from the front of the missile/torpedo will possibly be doing less damage to the target. Since the Proximity Fuse is supposed to center all warheads detonations on itself, it ensures that damage is as close to the target as possible, with less damage 'lost' due to distance from the explosion source.
Torpedo props only use 1,500 fuel per minute, while a single fuel part holds 5,000 fuel. So with torpedoes, 1 fuel is more than enough even with multiple torpedo props. I think the latest update reduced missile lifespan from 60 econds to 30 seconds, so a regulator is a must if you want 'longer range' torpedoes/missiles.


I ran into one instance where the sub got stuck 'below' a ship that tried to get as close as possible. (at least I got got to test fire vertical missiles directly into its keel...)
Maybe increase the broadside minimal range by at least 100-200m? It also gives the sub a little more time to back away.

I had toyed around with the turret a bit during my testing. (tried 6 barrel 35mm fin stabilized sabot at one point)
I had wondered why you only had 1 ammo input per autoloader.
Out of curiosity, do you know how to make a turret that is partly or mostly internal in a vehicle, with only the firing piece and other basics being in the 'external' part of the turret?


I hadn't really thought about magnets as a way to prevent torpedoes missing targets.
That's what I usually used the Proximity Fuse for.
I guess I should look into myself the next time I find a situation where my torpedoes keep missing targets consistently.

I don't know if snoopers will work well or at all to detect a target if it is 'hard wired' and lacks transmitters/recievers in general.
Which is one reason why I suggested a small launcher to deploy radar buoys.

Being underwater is not a surefire defense against all cannon shells..
Inertial Fuse and Proximity Fuse will cause shells to detonate even at slow speed.
I also think the one dedicated explosive nose detonates on impact.


I already have a few designs that rely on passive sonar with sonar buoys for active sonar. Including a hovering resource collector and a sky fortress.
As the sonar buoy need to be underwater to work, I prefer to have sonar buoys have ballast set for 10-15m, so they don't accidentally float up to the surface and 'hop' out of the water. So it is important to have radar buoys and sonar buoys in seperate launchers.


A secondary suggestion.
Add in a pair of ammo processors in the ammo storage compartment, along with a pair of ACBs to turn them on and off.
Such as < 30 ammo to turn on, and >70 ammo to turn off. That way they only turn on in combat when ammo is being used. Also add in one or two small resource storage.
Although you might want slightly larger batteries or an extra RTG to deal with the small increase in power drain.
It will help (slightly) counter the drastic drop in rate of fire in longer engagements when there is to little ammo to get the larger torpedoes reloaded because of the cannons and smaller missiles being reloaded.

Maybe also a add few repair bots here and there so the sub can self repair, be it during battle or when out of play after a battle.
In both cases, even with global resources, vehicles still need to have resource storage in the first place for resource using blocks like repair bots to function.

[Doombringer]

Originally posted by petrkovarik99:

I didn't know explosives are stronger under water, that's why I had frags in front, with narrow cone . The idea was that frags would punch a hole in armor and explosives will get inside and cause havoc. I will test all the changes and update the design online ASAP.

Once a missile hits a target all frag warheads go off at their current position and, at the same time, explosives go off at their average position (or the position of the fuze if you have one).

I'm pretty sure explosions propagate instantly, while frags have to travel (what is their speed? 60m/s?), so the explosion hits before the frags...
Anything below 20degrees for frags is a waste (if the frag is at the front of the missile, can be slightly narrower if farther back), as 20degrees puts all the frags into the spot that you hit.

Missiles take 6.25 ammo boxes/launch pad (or 1/20th as many ammo makers) to fire at full rate indefinitely. (they take 4sec to relaod per gantry and require 25 ammo per gantry)
Advanced Cannons require a lot more ammo.
You don't need to have enough ammo to fight at full fire rate indefinitely, but should have enough to not hit 0 in the first 1-2minutes of a fight.

[BunnyOverkill]

Well, new version uploaded. Much more ammo storage, it shouldn't run low now. One resource storage so I can use repair bots in combat. More RTGs, it still behaves inconsistently in campaign, but under normal conditions, with everything running at max, it has enough energy to run forever.

I changed my sparing partner in designer mode to brawler of Omega Frontier Division, he has very big cannon that can fire under itself, it's quite fast, armored and shielded even at bottom.

My torpedoes now unfortunately have only 6 explosives, just behind sonar is proximity fuse, in the back three fins and brawler forced me to add APN. They still find enemy targets extra squishy and seriously improved chance to hit faster targets.

Now the bad part. I have tried repeatedly to add one-gantry missile with ballast tank and sonar and it's radar-bearing twin. Added even ejectors. But I can't get the missiles to fire. Usual tactic with automated control block fails. All other missiles fire, but these do not. I planned to launch them every 55s (or 25 if missile lifetime is reduced to 30s). I don't know where is the problem.

[Doombringer]

You need missile sonar/radar bouy holders on your mainframe for each bouy you want to have out at the same time.
So if you want 1 radar and 1 sonar, then you need 1 of each.
(They are in detection equipment, on the right side.)
Once you have as many active bouys as you have holders, you won't be able to fire new ones until the old ones have despawned.

[FourGreenFields]

Originally posted by Doombringer:

You need missile sonar/radar bouy holders on your mainframe for each bouy you want to have out at the same time.
So if you want 1 radar and 1 sonar, then you need 1 of each.
(They are in detection equipment, on the right side.)

Side note: If they're only intendet for to decoy hostile missiles/torps, you don't need them connected to a mainframe. Still need a holder on your vessel though.

[BunnyOverkill]

There is also one other drawback of this mini design. Space is really really limited and everything is so close. I would prefer more empty space and less cluttering, as it makes redesigning harder.
Also some blast walls between critical parts would be nice. Well, tough luck. At least the cost is low.

@Rditto48801 : I usually place most of the cannon under deck, with it's own armor to protect the ammo *and* protect the ship if something nails the ammo even through armor. Not sure if it's what you mean. I am not sure if it would be possible in this case, it means having a hole in the main hull so the turret's lower and upper parts are connected - and that means my ballast won't work. Not sure, maybe it's now fixed, I believe it wasn't the case year ago when I was designing turret like that.

[BunnyOverkill]

OMG. I haven't noticed I need the holders. Stupid mistake. WIll fix tomorrow.

[BunnyOverkill]

OK, new version uploaded. Redesigned vertical missiles, they have now only one missile controller instead of two. Switched everything to passive - instead of directional sonars, there are only two passives front and back, plus snooper and two sonar and radar buoys each launched from the back, every 15s. Radar buoys have small problem, they are jumping out of water and back in, no matter what buyoancy I set on the ballast tanks, fortunately most of the time one is transmiting while the other one is underwater. Having three would fix the problem in 99 percent cases if someone really wants to. Active sonar buoys don't have this problem of course, I have them 30m deep. Not sure I should bother with retroflection sensor or coincidence rangefinders, I doubt they work underwater. Bit of cleaning now that I don't need that much AI connectors. Everything is still cluttered though, navigating through all this on foot would be total nightmare.

[rditto48801]

Does anyone know if torpedo explosive warheads suffer the same 'diminishing returns' as APS explosive warhads do? If so, would it limit how effective torpedoes with lots of explosive warheads would be compared to torpedoes with fewer explosive warheads?

I know one thing for sure. 6 explosive warheads is to much, the blast radius is so huge they can knock nearby torpedoes so far off target they can miss even a Kingstead.

On one side observation from my testing of how effective the torpedoes are... fear the Bulwark, it's anti-missile cannons can engage even torpedoes fired underwater, and at least one of its CRAM Cannon turrets seems quite capable of accurately hitting even submerged sub jerking around underwater.

Originally posted by petrkovarik99:

There is also one other drawback of this mini design. Space is really really limited and everything is so close. I would prefer more empty space and less cluttering, as it makes redesigning harder.
Also some blast walls between critical parts would be nice. Well, tough luck. At least the cost is low.

Having missile launchers stick out of the hull is not a good idea in IMO, even with the 1m slopes.

A suggestion based on one thing I tried.
Just extend the entire hull up 1m, and when replacing the turret (via saving it as a subojbect), placing it forward by 2m and reloacting the LWC for it.
Moving the turret is for two reasons. One, to help nudge the sub's CoM foreward a little bit since the sub is a tiny bit rear heavy.
Second, there is a slightl shell trap at the lower rear of the turret due to the sub's angled rear.
Also, I noticed the turret CoM is shaky, and I discovered it is lopsided weight wise, due to how little the clips and ammo inputs weigh, even the recoil compesnators are close to half the weight of other APS parts like the guage increasers.

Is the cannon rate of fire final yet?

I personally prefer passive sonar on the sides, or top and bottom. So they don't clutter the front or rear.

Torpedo props/missile thrusters don't need to be at the rear of the missile/torpedo. Although it looks odd, move fins to the very back. Every last little bit of speed counts from cutting down on fin drag.

Another small CoM issue, the ammo customizer. Easiest fix, place a duplicate one, so there is a match in weight and buoyancy.

I was toying around with manual controlling the sub, and I can see a few ways to improve its maneuvering.
Balancing placement of thrusters, inline with ones facing the opposite direction, having equal thrusters place fore and aft of CoM.
Placing a few extra ion thrusters on the upper and lower sides, setting them to be roll thrusters, and using a PID for Roll Controll, since the buoy system and aft passive sonar means the rudder's placement rolls the sub during turns.
Placing hydrovoils on the front sides, setting up a PID to control altitude via Hydrofoils, help the sub better control its depth when moving.
Replacing the rudder with AI connectors going back, for moving the passive sonar to that new position, so the rudder can be relocated closer to level of the CoM, so it causes the sub to roll less during a turn.


During my own attempts to refit to see what changes might work, I did find you got an 'empty' 1x2m area at the top right rear corner of your ammo stockpile.
Just move up and then right from the buoy ACB to find it.

About the buoys launching out of the water.
I have had similar problems with the buoys and ballast with deploying them sideways above the water.
Although I didn't realize it was so bad on free floating stuff deployed underwater.
The physics on missile parts seem backwards, little resistance from water and lots of resistance from air.

One stray idea to fix it. Make it 2m, add Variable Thruster (50 thrust), Fuel. Then it becomes an airborne radar buoy... and more easilly targeted by AMS...

A Staggered Fire Addon might be useful for the buoys. In some conditions, I had them bump into each other on launch, destroying one or both of the buoys.

Originally posted by petrkovarik99:

@Rditto48801 : I usually place most of the cannon under deck, with it's own armor to protect the ammo *and* protect the ship if something nails the ammo even through armor. Not sure if it's what you mean. I am not sure if it would be possible in this case, it means having a hole in the main hull so the turret's lower and upper parts are connected - and that means my ballast won't work. Not sure, maybe it's now fixed, I believe it wasn't the case year ago when I was designing turret like that.

That's basically what I was thinking of.
The thing of the turret being 'open' is why I mentioned it if you make a larger sub, since when walled off (and preferably with access passages to either side) most of the sub will still be air tight. I can see why such an idea would be impracticle for such a small sub.