Pazner Corps vs panzer general 2

[behamot]

Hi,

I would like for opinions how this game is in comparision to old panzer general 2.
I don't care much about graphic or sound effects as this part is obviously improved.

The main thing I care is how deep is that game in comparission to PG2, less deep or more deep game in terms of strategic choices you can make.

And maybe a few words about campaign difficulty.

I would probably get this game anyway at some point ( waiting for at least small sale, but I know this is unlikely with matrix/slithering games )

Thank You.

[Wendigo]

http://tabtimes.com/analysis/ipad-game/2013/12/21/panzer-corps-old-school-turn-based-strategy-tabtimes-game-week

[Woody]

I played very little of a friends copy of PG2. The game play of the two seem exactly the same to me.

[General Plastro]

On all your points, i think PC tops PG2. More mechanics, more units, choices, dificulty customization, etc.

Its only sad that PC didint had all those years to get as many mods as PG2 has right now.

So yeah, with the exception of mod quantity, PC is strictly better (also, PC mods, seems to be, on average, better than PG2 ones).

[danconnors]

I have to go with Panzer General 2. It had quite a few improvements over the original and over Panzer Corps. To me the most telling was the 'overrun' capability of tank units. In Panzer Corps tanks, in general, are considerably weaker than they were in actuality. With overrun in PG2 one tank unit could take out several enemy units in one turn.

There were also "leader specials" awarded to units that excelled on the battlefield. Artillery leader specials got increased effective range and sometimes more efficient use of ammunition. Aircraft units would sometimes gain 'all weather' capability (although their attack was considerably weakened in bad weather).

It's a crying shame that PG2 can't be played on a windows 7 machine. One of many excellent games rendered useless by Microsoft's perpetual release of operating systems that aren't backwards compatible.

[General Plastro]

Originally posted by danconnors:

I have to go with Panzer General 2. It had quite a few improvements over the original and over Panzer Corps. To me the most telling was the 'overrun' capability of tank units. In Panzer Corps tanks, in general, are considerably weaker than they were in actuality. With overrun in PG2 one tank unit could take out several enemy units in one turn.

There were also "leader specials" awarded to units that excelled on the battlefield. Artillery leader specials got increased effective range and sometimes more efficient use of ammunition. Aircraft units would sometimes gain 'all weather' capability (although their attack was considerably weakened in bad weather).

It's a crying shame that PG2 can't be played on a windows 7 machine. One of many excellent games rendered useless by Microsoft's perpetual release of operating systems that aren't backwards compatible.

Mate, Panzer General 2 works flawlessly on Win7, just mark the compatibility checkboxes in the PANZER2.exe

Also, dont forget to use only one CPU core!

I actually reinstalled PG2 just to check that and it even works on my win8.1 laptop!

[Magnus]

I think I enjoyed PG2 more, but maybe it was just better back then.

I enjoyed People's General as well, mainly because you had more freedom to build allied forces, giving you a coalition.

[Slitherine_Iain]

Panzer Corps has heroes which are very similar to the leaders mentioned above. They give various bonuses such as increased combat stats, sighting ranges, firing ranges and some combinations of heroes create very unusual and unique units.

Overrun attacks are something we didn't want to do as we strongly feel they spoil the gameplay making strong units far too overpowered getting additional attacks if they destroy their target. The feature has been requested a number of times but we are consciously leaving it out as we do not feel it adds to gameplay. It results in armies of very powerful units and infantry and support units becomes less feasible making the battles less interesting and a less varied experience with less tactical options for the player.

[danconnors]

I'd like to remind everyone that there's a reason this game is called Panzer Corps, and Panzer General, and Panzer General 2. The panzers were the German tanks. They were the central and most important units of the German army. They were the units that made blitzkrieg possible.

In World War 1, near the end, the Germans employed Hutier tactics to achieve local breakthroughs of allied lines. However, the attacks were quickly contained, because the Germans had no forces that could rapidly advance into the allies rear areas and encircle huge pockets of the allied armies. The tank was brand new at that time, and the German army had very few.

Between the world wars German and British military theorists came to realize that improved tanks could make Hutier tactics succesful. The British paid little heed to their prophets, but the Germans did. Thus was born the Blitzkrieg.

The task of the panzers, after the breakthrough was accomplished, was to advance very quickly into the enemy rear areas OVER RUNNING headquarter units, lines of communications, air bases, enemy reinforcements strung out on the march. Motorized infantry and artillery were integral units in panzer divisions, there to support the tanks.

Where Panzer General 2 surpassed its siblings was that, in that one game, you could achieve breakthroughs and send your panzer units rolling into the breaches. It was here that the light tanks like the PZ2D could demonstrate their worth. They were the fastest German tank, and I could often get them to objectives before the enemy had time to prepare any defense.

Unfortunately in Panzer Corps they have no speed advantage over the other tanks, and hence they are almost useless.

[Delta 66]

- German Pz IID Speed is around 55 km/h which is a bit better that the other early war panzer who average around 40 km/h. However this is road movement speed, and in that purpose significantly slower than most wheeled armored cars. For cross country speed the panzer speed are around 20 to 25 km/h.

At any rate there is a difference between theoretical speed, and speed of units at operational level which should take into account wears and tears and support units too.

Light recon tanks certainly had a speed advantage, but most HQs or critical assets had some sort of AT guns protections, and recon cars or tanks where lighlty armored. Neither did they know what they would encounter behind enemy lines, hence they might not be so reckless after breakthrough as a player enjoying a complete view of the battlefield. As far as I know Pz IID were not a critical factor in WW2 battles.

Also not that as the war moved on the Germans build heavier and slower tanks, which is in contradiction whith any "blitzkrieg" philosophy.

- There was much debates recently about the Blitzkrieg myth. Contemporary opinions among historians suggest that the Blitzkrieg as implemented by the Wehrmacht was less the result of a preparation, as the result of events on the ground and the zeal of some generals (as Guderian and Rommel, which BTW where often in conflict with their senior commanders about it).

The "myth" of a strict doctrine and well formalized have been built after the war for propaganda.
The Wehrmacht was not the perfect mechanised machine often advertized. Infantry still played a critical role, and was mostly on foot, artillery was often horse drawn too, and not all Pz divisions had their full compliment of armored half track.

The Pz Divisions were certainly effective mobile combined arms units, but their early success were greatly helped by a massive air superiority and good tactical air support.

[danconnors]

There are many, including me, who believe that the German preoccupation with bigger, more powerful, tanks cost them the war. The tiger tank is the prime example. It was big, heavy, slow, and expensive. For the cost of one tiger, four or five upgunned, uparmored PZIV tanks could have been purchased.

With the bigger tanks came changes in their use. At Kursk, instead of punching a small breach through the Russian lines, the armored forces attacked along a broad front. One of the super heavy behemoths, the Ferdinand, didn't even mount a single anti infantry machinegun. The Russian infantry knocked them out with hand grenades and gasoline. The result at Kursk was complete failure.

The composition of panzer divisions changed. One reason was Hitler. After he saw how succesful the divisions had been in France, he demanded that the number of panzer divisions be doubled, immediately. Of course there was only one way to do that. The number of tanks in a panzer division was cut in half. Also the number and quality, and speed of supporting infantry and artillery was much reduced. The result was that panzer division were no longer that. They became regular divisions with a high number of tanks.

The idea that the blitz is a myth must have really surprized Guderian and the British officers who separately developed it. In extensive war games between the wars, these highly mobile, hard hitting units consistently routed conventional forces that always outnumbered them. Unfortunately for the British the results of these war games were ignored.

Air support was vital for the panzer divisions, and as a result, officers of the Luftwaffe accompanied the divisions, and could call for tactical air support exactly where and when it was needed. The allies, at the start of the war, could never come near the effectiveness between their air and ground forces.

Revisionist history is highly suspect. I have seen "studies" pretending to 'prove' that a conventional invasion of Japan would have resulted in only 40,000 American casualties, when the actual invasion of Okinawa resulted in almost as many for one, small island, with a garrison only 5% the size of the Japanese army defending Honshu.

[Lewiser]

I have never played panzer general 2 so all my comment are based off of playing people's general.

Originally posted by Slitherine_Iain:

Panzer Corps has heroes which are very similar to the leaders mentioned above. They give various bonuses such as increased combat stats, sighting ranges, firing ranges and some combinations of heroes create very unusual and unique units.

Overrun attacks are something we didn't want to do as we strongly feel they spoil the gameplay making strong units far too overpowered getting additional attacks if they destroy their target. The feature has been requested a number of times but we are consciously leaving it out as we do not feel it adds to gameplay. It results in armies of very powerful units and infantry and support units becomes less feasible making the battles less interesting and a less varied experience with less tactical options for the player.

The issue with that line of thought is the game is all about getting the most powerful units due to the unit cap. Why any one would get a smaller version on anything in game is beyond me. What is the point of standard infantry? Get heavy, Eng or if you really want foot speed the mountain troops. If there was no cap, like in People's General, then a true combined arms appoach that used second line troops would be possible. As the game stands only a fool would not upgrade to the most powerful unit as soon as possible.

Also the "overrun" attack awarded good use of combined arms. Arty and Infantry would soften a whole line and then armor would give a "coup de grace" to the enemy. Also it really makes dividing one;s forces a risky manuver due to getting a hole punched into your line. In PC its a grinding almost WWI frontline event. There should be bonuses for flanking attack or encirclement, something to award smart use of tactics. Currently PC is a game of "find, fix, kill support, kill combat arms, repeat."

Also the way that new units entered play was better in People's General than in PC. It's needlessly annoying when the AI spawns 5 units from thin air on the last objective. I already killed more units on this board than I have total, why to I have to ambush the final objective?

[danconnors]

I've noticed the spamming units also. Particularly in Norway, where the Brits stuffed a unit into EVERY available hex around the final objective. These were not fleeing units regrouping; these were brand new units. Since the allied forces had no ships or aircraft in the area I wonder how all these thousands of troops were transported. Via submarine?

In Panzer General 2 reinforcing units could only be introduced in a few specific areas. In Panzer General and Panzer Corps reinforcing units can pop out of any city. Before anyone says that reinforcements can arrive by way of the railroads, let me point out that if your armies control the countryside around an enemy city there is no way you are going to allow rail transport into that city. It only takes a few pounds of C4 to blow up a section of track.

Panzer General 2 had no cap on total units. I was able, very early on, to hire Spanish militia units with trucks, that were still cheaper than the German home guard units. They were used for the exaxt same purpose, occupying conquered territory. Having trucks they were much more flexible than home guard. There was a practical cap to the elite units you could field. I usually only had 7 or 8 over strengthened tank units, 9 artillery units, 4 heavy infantry, 7 fighter, and 7 tac bomber units.

PG2 allowed your armies to include core groups that were not entirely German, as was true of the axis armies in general. My armies usually contained Spanish infantry, Italian artillery and a few excellent Italian tactical bombers.

[[STW] cavour]

PG2,especially in modded version,had more units to chose.On allows buying mixed units infantry/assault vehicle and more flying units.Can also bought ships and U-Boot.Was also a version in which you could add capacity more precisely PG3.Workshop Is strongely necessary

[Magnus]

Just for some nostalgia, anyone else play SSI's Conflict Korea or Conflit Middle East?.....both good games.

The first game I ever saw, that got me hooked on this genre, was Storm across Europe....can't remember who made it, but I played it on an Amiga 500......

[[STW] cavour]

Nostalgia of Panzer General 2.
Great campaigns, many units to choose from, great longevity of the game.
The only flaw was the mode Suite, where you could create scenarios and edit campaigns, too difficult and chaotic.
As would be nice to have a version for Steam with the ability to easily create you own campaigns, units and scenarios at will.
I have tears in my eyes.