Reflection and counter attack timings are unreasonable

[avastcosmicarena]

The timing and positioning required for reflection and counter attacks to connect and actually work are unreasonable to the point that they fail 75% of the time. The implementation just isn't practical for most players, IMO. Even with the skill upgrade to make reflection faster, it is still extremely hard to actually use it. It's probably the most unintuitive parry/deflect-like move I've seen in a game like this.

[Vacenti]

Ima be real with you bro, i have an easier time to parry in this game than souls-borne. Whats tripping you up is their hella delayed and variable counter attack timings. Some are fast af or hella slow. The main thing you have to look out for is to identify what they are attacking you with and to just counter attack as soon as it starts flying our or its about to hit you.

Reflect kinda poop though i feel you

[Zerixar]

they're fine, you're bad, get better.

[sgrey]

Originally posted by JDlightside:

Originally posted by sgrey:

Brink guard also "suffers" from delayed attacks because many attacks are pretty much instantaneous and you have to hit it waaaay before the animation starts, when the enemy is in the "prep" phase.
Reflection has a general rule: you weapon must meet up with the enemy's weapon. In general you start it slightly early and you should be able to get it.

yeah, delayed attacks can mess timing brink defense up, but it's also much more immediately understandable in that instance where your timing went wrong.

Reflection has much more a "too early/too late" factor where you're trying the judge when the "mid-point" of an attack's wind up is (so not too early and you just whiff before "the attack meets yours" or too late and you just get hit before it comes out), it won't usually be that apparent how "off" you were in timing when it fails.

Reflection is also very clear if you are too late or too early. In addition, there are plenty of basic enemies everywhere that you can practice on. Often bosses would have similar combos to more common enemies you meet on the level. If you practice just a tad bit, you will get once and forever. I recommend to practice on a Yeti.

[RagnaXBL]

reflects i can understand but counter attacks are pretty easy. the counter activates on frame 1 after the input. no weird timing at all

[MrLuckless]

So the timings on brink guards/dodges feels about right, even though many enemies have deliberately slowed down timings for their attacks, but reflections only work on SOME attacks, and thus aren't as reliable as simply jumping away or blocking. So even if the move is technically "high risk/high reward" you're asking the player to make 2 gambles. 1 to see if the attack is able to be parried, and another to see if they can get the perform the move correctly.

I think I'll stick to the 2 moves that have a slew of skills tied to improving them naturally depending on the weapon being used.

[Baron01]

Originally posted by avastcosmicarena:

The timing and positioning required for reflection and counter attacks to connect and actually work are unreasonable to the point that they fail 75% of the time. The implementation just isn't practical for most players, IMO. Even with the skill upgrade to make reflection faster, it is still extremely hard to actually use it. It's probably the most unintuitive parry/deflect-like move I've seen in a game like this.

I agree that Reflection is difficult to use due to its additional animation. It is hard to hit Reflection reliably enough for it to be worth the risk. Luckily, you do not have to use it unlike Counter.

Counter is, unlike Reflection, instant and much easier to land. All it requires from you is to press it just as the hit is about to connect with you. This is obviously harder to do when the red attacks have different delays. Once you are able to read the timing of red attacks, you should be able to regularly land Counters. This is absolutely critical for boss fights where some bosses only give you window to deal serious damage during their stagger after Counter. There are few red attacks on different bosses where I could not get the timing right so I just dodge them but that is just a few.

Mind you, I'm writing this from the perspective of dual-wield build and I have no idea how are the timing for Reflection or Counter on other weapons.

[Gravious]

Originally posted by avastcosmicarena:

The timing and positioning required for reflection and counter attacks to connect and actually work are unreasonable to the point that they fail 75% of the time. The implementation just isn't practical for most players, IMO. Even with the skill upgrade to make reflection faster, it is still extremely hard to actually use it. It's probably the most unintuitive parry/deflect-like move I've seen in a game like this.

I just use a spirit attack that has invuln frames and not b.s with it at all.

[thorin.hannahs]

It is "upper level" combat tech. I'd expect most people to start fiddling with reflect in NG+ when they are much more comfortable with boss attack timings. It isn't required to clear the game (as far as I know) and is there for you to flex on a boss similar to combat arts and prosthetics in Sekiro.

I messed with it a bit and it doesn't seem too bad with the spear. I knocked those little gremlin cat dudes out of there jumping attacks with it.

The ability lets you take your turn back from the boss which is very powerful so it shouldn't be easy. Use it on Knock-off Vergil's 6-7 slash or 8-9 slash in his 9 piece and he will be exhausted for certain. Same with Shield Maiden she has the same pause for slash 6-7 and 8-9 in her 9 piece which I believe is there so a player can reflect.

Counter attack is easy and every time I fail it I know I am at fault.

[Giganx]

Reflection is really strong, but the timing is so strict and awkward that it's really not worth it. If you know the bosses moveset so well that you can actually land reflects then you'd beat the boss easily without them.

Counterattack is pretty generous with the timing though, and you can even spend a skill point to make the window even bigger.

[Branded Lost]

i cant do reflection, i cant do counter attack. bad game

[Brainssss]

Originally posted by Giganx:

Reflection is really strong, but the timing is so strict and awkward that it's really not worth it. If you know the bosses moveset so well that you can actually land reflects then you'd beat the boss easily without them.

Counterattack is pretty generous with the timing though, and you can even spend a skill point to make the window even bigger.

THIS. Is what I'm trying to explain to soulslike imbeciles for years. Why meachanic basically works only when you know boss to that extent you don't actually need it. Same even goes for standard enemies. I just dunno for me it's like the most epic fail in soulslike combat.

[Giganx]

Originally posted by Brainssss:

Originally posted by Giganx:

Reflection is really strong, but the timing is so strict and awkward that it's really not worth it. If you know the bosses moveset so well that you can actually land reflects then you'd beat the boss easily without them.

Counterattack is pretty generous with the timing though, and you can even spend a skill point to make the window even bigger.

THIS. Is what I'm trying to explain to soulslike imbeciles for years. Why meachanic basically works only when you know boss to that extent you don't actually need it. Same even goes for standard enemies. I just dunno for me it's like the most epic fail in soulslike combat.

I view skill like these as "show off" and "flex" on the boss skills. Practice a boss for 10 hours so you can make a video of you chain reflect/comboing him to death no damage in 60 seconds, and name the video "TOO EZ!!" ;)

[MightyKenno]

This helped me somewhat so it may help others too. I remapped Counterattack and Reflection to single buttons on my mouse (Thumb 1 and Thumb 2 on my Logitech G502). It just made it slightly easier to do the moves in the heat of a boss fight.

[电动天使]

Originally posted by Brainssss:

Originally posted by Giganx:

Reflection is really strong, but the timing is so strict and awkward that it's really not worth it. If you know the bosses moveset so well that you can actually land reflects then you'd beat the boss easily without them.

Counterattack is pretty generous with the timing though, and you can even spend a skill point to make the window even bigger.

THIS. Is what I'm trying to explain to soulslike imbeciles for years. Why meachanic basically works only when you know boss to that extent you don't actually need it. Same even goes for standard enemies. I just dunno for me it's like the most epic fail in soulslike combat.

Trying to explain what? These games have always been about memorization above everything else.

[Brainssss]

Originally posted by 你¨妈¨死¨了:

Originally posted by Brainssss:

THIS. Is what I'm trying to explain to soulslike imbeciles for years. Why meachanic basically works only when you know boss to that extent you don't actually need it. Same even goes for standard enemies. I just dunno for me it's like the most epic fail in soulslike combat.

Trying to explain what? These games have always been about memorization above everything else.

See guys? They still don't understand.