The First Berserker: Khazan

The First Berserker: Khazan

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Reflection and counter attack timings are unreasonable
The timing and positioning required for reflection and counter attacks to connect and actually work are unreasonable to the point that they fail 75% of the time. The implementation just isn't practical for most players, IMO. Even with the skill upgrade to make reflection faster, it is still extremely hard to actually use it. It's probably the most unintuitive parry/deflect-like move I've seen in a game like this.
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Showing 1-15 of 53 comments
There's upgrades at mastery 36 to make the timing easier and you get even more of them in NG+.
the same for parry skill in souls/ER. This is a high risk high reward skill that immediately stunt the boss for a long punish combo. Of course it's hard to success. You already got brink guard.
Originally posted by khamthien251:
the same for parry skill in souls/ER. This is a high risk high reward skill that immediately stunt the boss for a long punish combo. Of course it's hard to success. You already got brink guard.

No, it's not even close. Parrying in all of From Software's games is about 5x easier than reflecting and counter attacking in Khazan.
sgrey Mar 31 @ 9:19pm 
get the upgrade, it's quite reasonable
Originally posted by avastcosmicarena:
Originally posted by khamthien251:
the same for parry skill in souls/ER. This is a high risk high reward skill that immediately stunt the boss for a long punish combo. Of course it's hard to success. You already got brink guard.

No, it's not even close. Parrying in all of From Software's games is about 5x easier than reflecting and counter attacking in Khazan.

They're two VERY different games and systems. You should be looking at how such a move fits in this game, not Dark Souls.
Originally posted by sgrey:
get the upgrade, it's quite reasonable

I have it. It doesn't really help that much. You still have to be positioned perfectly and start the reflect early, which makes it connect very rarely. It's unintuitive and impractical most of the time.
Originally posted by thefollowingcharacters:
Originally posted by avastcosmicarena:

No, it's not even close. Parrying in all of From Software's games is about 5x easier than reflecting and counter attacking in Khazan.

They're two VERY different games and systems. You should be looking at how such a move fits in this game, not Dark Souls.

Irrelevant. I'm not the one who brought up Souls/Elden Ring. Someone else did. But the timing and positioning required in this game for these moves is more strict than what you find in ANY other Souls-like. I've never had this much trouble getting these things to work in any other game in the genre.
Mike Mar 31 @ 9:24pm 
Man I wish people would just learn a games mechanics/systems before whining and comparing them to every other game. Its NOT Dark souls so the timing and the skill needed will obviously be different, so you can either learn the timing, get upgrades to make it easier or don't use it. Not every game is made for you to take your legacy skill to it and master it in a few hours lol.

I'm in NG+ now i can easily reflect, enemies, bosses without even thinking (its instinct at this point).

As others have said its high risk high reward so don't expect it to be easy, however by the time you get all of the upgrades for it most of the risk is mitigated because you take less damage for missing and the timing gets easier and easier.

Also the game has a training mode for a reason, so go in there set the enemy you want and test the parry out until you get the timing down.
Counter attack seems fine (timing is basically press LB+B/L1+O right before getting hit by the move, can be tricky with some certain attacks' animations, but it's plenty doable).

Reflection though just seems like the timing will always be tricky, even against well telegraphed moves. Sure it's rewarding when it does land, but I just feel like I can never quite be confident to get the timing consistently. It feels there's no real "rule" to timing it, and it feels massively different between every enemy/boss in the game.

Can't even really discern if the skill that gives it faster startup makes it that much better (yes it coming out faster is nice, but that also seems to change how you time it completely, since the frame data for the timing window is changes too seemingly)
Last edited by JDlightside; Mar 31 @ 9:38pm
Originally posted by Mike:
Man I wish people would just learn a games mechanics/systems before whining and comparing them to every other game. Its NOT Dark souls so the timing and the skill needed will obviously be different, so you can either learn the timing, get upgrades to make it easier or don't use it. Not every game is made for you to take your legacy skill to it and master it in a few hours lol.

I'm in NG+ now i can easily reflect, enemies, bosses without even thinking (its instinct at this point).

As others have said its high risk high reward so don't expect it to be easy, however by the time you get all of the upgrades for it most of the risk is mitigated because you take less damage for missing and the timing gets easier and easier.

Also the game has a training mode for a reason, so go in there set the enemy you want and test the parry out until you get the timing down.

The problem isn't that it doesn't work the same way as it does in Dark Souls or Elden Ring. The problem is that the tuning of it is so poor that it's the most strict implementation of such a feature in the entire genre. Much like how the stamina system is more punishing than every other game in the genre, bosses have more HP than the bosses in every other game in the genre, the timing for reflection and counter attacking is more difficult than every other game in the genre. I don't view this is a good thing. It's just unnecessarily difficult for no real reason. The tuning of it is off.
Originally posted by avastcosmicarena:
Originally posted by khamthien251:
the same for parry skill in souls/ER. This is a high risk high reward skill that immediately stunt the boss for a long punish combo. Of course it's hard to success. You already got brink guard.

No, it's not even close. Parrying in all of From Software's games is about 5x easier than reflecting and counter attacking in Khazan.
Right, the brink gaurd is comparable but the other 2 are not. Some enemies are trivially easy to pull them off others are not. Also the three weapons types have very slightly different timings so if you, like me, swap weapons often to keep things fresh you just never really get the timings down.

They have very small windows and the upgrades merely remove some of the startup frames, not expand the parry frames.

Ultimately they are the enemy weapons has to strike you the frame before the flash or as your weapon is nearing the end of its animation respectively and it is just a couple frames of wiggle room.

For the counter, that is fine, that ability is not needed and can actually be ignored but there are moves that require reflect so that timing being so tight is not okay. (or you can just dodge which is way safer) They should be like Sekiro timings, that game's combat is clearly where this one (and Nioh for that matter) draws inspiration from flow-wise but Sekiro is very forgiving by comparison.

The game is single player, no reason for the timings on your defensive moves to be so tight for every move. Sekiro got around this by generally making it easy 90% of the time but some attacks are faster and throw of the normal timing. In this game attacks mostly have giant ♥♥♥♥ off windups that can be varied by a few frames and an actual attack that is very fast. There are exceptions like Viper and a couple others.

And don't even get me started on command grabs that are just 'stab you with weapon' lol yo utried to brink guard that because you thought it was a normal attack, there goes half your health bar sucks to suck (no really command grabs do not belong in this sort of game unless it is very obvious the attack will be a grab and can't be blocked. They even have a symbol for 'hey dodge or reflect this attack' so no reason to not have one for 'hey this can only be dodged.')
Originally posted by JDlightside:
Counter attack seems fine (timing is basically press LB+B/L1+O right before getting hit by the move, can be tricky with some certain attacks' animations, but it's plenty doable).

Reflection though just seems like the timing will always be tricky, even against well telegraphed moves. Sure it's rewarding when it does land, but I just feel like I can never quite be confident to get the timing consistently.

Counter attacking is slightly easier to me depending on the enemy attack, but I find it just as difficult to land on a lot of different enemy attacks. For example, it was easy to land counter attacks on Viper, but very hard to land them on Valbaino or Aratra. It's not only the timing but also the positioning of your character and the angle of your swing. It's tough to be in the right place at the right time to get it to work.

I am talking from the perspective of someone using the Greatsword, by the way, which has the slowest attacks. So, it's probably the hardest of the 3 weapons to get to work for counter attacks/reflections.
sgrey Mar 31 @ 9:35pm 
Originally posted by avastcosmicarena:
Originally posted by sgrey:
get the upgrade, it's quite reasonable

I have it. It doesn't really help that much. You still have to be positioned perfectly and start the reflect early, which makes it connect very rarely. It's unintuitive and impractical most of the time.
Other than the super fast attacks, I can pull it off on almost everything. It's not as bad as you make it out to be. Yes, you do have time it right, but the whole game is about timing. You also have to time brink guard or brink dodge right.
Originally posted by sgrey:
Originally posted by avastcosmicarena:

I have it. It doesn't really help that much. You still have to be positioned perfectly and start the reflect early, which makes it connect very rarely. It's unintuitive and impractical most of the time.
Other than the super fast attacks, I can pull it off on almost everything. It's not as bad as you make it out to be. Yes, you do have time it right, but the whole game is about timing. You also have to time brink guard or brink dodge right.

Spear user?
Originally posted by avastcosmicarena:
Originally posted by sgrey:
Other than the super fast attacks, I can pull it off on almost everything. It's not as bad as you make it out to be. Yes, you do have time it right, but the whole game is about timing. You also have to time brink guard or brink dodge right.

Spear user?

Greatsword user here. I reflect just about everything I can get away with, every elite encounter in the game since I got reflect dies by reflect into combo into execute. There are many enemies I have no idea what they do like the spell blade skeleton guy for instance because I just reflect his first stab and he dies.

I sit there and reflect bosses as often as possible because it’s crazy powerful and because I have done it so much, I have the muscle memory for the timing and I can often reflect attacks I have never seen before.

Stop making excuses. Learn the timing or don’t. It’s optional to use reflect. Reflect is obscenely powerful for the player though.
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