M***** F***** VIPER

[Chopper]

Took me 20-25 tries to beat his a**, wtf is wrong with his moveset??? It didnt seem particularly difficult but he kept wiping the floor with me! Was it the movement and combat? Was it input lag? (Cant be, I disabled FG and Boost) or was it just nerves?

If this boss was so tough wtf are the rest of the bosses like???

[Tayzor Azul]

Originally posted by Chopper:

Dont talk to me like im a newb, Ive beat:-
Sekiro,
DS 1,2,3,
Elden Ring,
Black Myth Wukong
and plenty more, all with keyboard and mouse but this games got some issue, its not as snappy and responsive, not doing exactly what I want when I need it to.

Does not matter if you beat those. You still a newb at this game since you are new to it.
You may have experience but that mean jack shiz if you do not know the game's mechanics.

[Kisama]

Originally posted by Chopper:

Dont talk to me like im a newb, Ive beat:-
Sekiro,
DS 1,2,3,
Elden Ring,
Black Myth Wukong
and plenty more, all with keyboard and mouse but this games got some issue, its not as snappy and responsive, not doing exactly what I want when I need it to.

I feel like if you're complaining about any of the bosses in this game you didn't fight Erlang in Wukong.

[Konork]

I think the problem sometimes is that we are too stuborn to change our build when their are not the optimal for facing that boss. I had that problem with Viper playing my spear build but was much better when I tried the great sword. Just avoid him and hit him with charged strikes that break his posture. For second phase you need to be really carefull with some of his attacks but he have less hp or defense because he suffer more damage, so you just need to seek the overtures again.
The next boss I used the spear again and was much easier, just don't get too atached to an specific build because you can change them easilly without any penalty.

[Ace]

Originally posted by Chopper:

Dont talk to me like im a newb, Ive beat:-
Sekiro,
DS 1,2,3,
Elden Ring,
Black Myth Wukong
and plenty more, all with keyboard and mouse but this games got some issue, its not as snappy and responsive, not doing exactly what I want when I need it to.

Beating one game has no bearing on beating another.

Dark souls isn't hard, even remotely at all, unless your're saying you've beat it with full fat-rolls and broken sword only.

Elden ring is the easiest souls game in the series.

Sekiro is the most akin to Khazan, but still has a very different flow.

Honestly, I can't speak to any input lag as I'm not personally experiencing any. I don't use any Nvidia boost or framegen stuff, but the game has never eaten any of my inputs... There is some "lag" (Recovery frames) on things, but as a souls player you should be very aware of that mechanic anyways. However you can dash cancel almost anything so it's much more free-form here in Khazan.

The best advice i can give though is don't rest on your laurels or try to play one game as if it's another. Different development teams will have different ideals on how things should be played.

Dark souls for example is very VERY easily beaten with a slow and steady approach regardless of build (Except maybe archer/Mage but those are arguably even easier and in the case of elden ring mages are the most powerful class possible). "Poke-poke-dodge. Poke-dodge-poke-dodge > Stamina regen phase > repeat."

Sekiro is "Block block block block parry > Huge damage > Repeat"

Nioh 2, which I'd liken this game most similar to...well it's a different beast entirely. It's about being the aggressor while also balancing parries and dodges so that you can STAY on offense. And it was very weapon dependent. Katanas had to balance their aggression with parries, Knuckles had to schmix the opponents like mad and never let up, only backing off to recover stamina or to avoid AoE attacks, Switchglave had to use every opening perfectly.

Khazan is a game that pushes boundaries by letting players have more mobility and freedom than most soulslike games, while also keeping the enemies powerful and not falling too far into DMC territory where you just combomax everything to death.

The thing is, if you try to play Khazan like it's dark souls or Sekiro, you'll lose the long game. You're more likely to make more mistakes over a longer period of time, so maximizing the amount of time you can deal damage and constantly wearing the enemy down actually improves your chances of survival because enemy health values in this game are quite reasonable, and with the stamina system, you want to keep damaging their stamina to keep it from recharging in between parries while balancing your own stamina so that you can capitalize on the opening when it presents itself.

It's a different souls game, and so it has to be played differently.

[Ace]

Originally posted by Konork:

I think the problem sometimes is that we are too stuborn to change our build when their are not the optimal for facing that boss. I had that problem with Viper playing my spear build but was much better when I tried the great sword. Just avoid him and hit him with charged strikes that break his posture. For second phase you need to be really carefull with some of his attacks but he have less hp or defense because he suffer more damage, so you just need to seek the overtures again.
The next boss I used the spear again and was much easier, just don't get too atached to an specific build because you can change them easilly without any penalty.

Not only that, you can farm Mastery for skills fairly easily, and if I'm not mistaken it's a shared resource, so you can use your preferred weapon to open up options for your other weapons until you're more comfortable switching to them.

And realistically, Khazan, lacking any form of "Dex/Int" build options, can actually benefit from having a balance of skills instead of just minmaxing into one single stat type. Even as a spear user, I still throw a point or two into strength from time to time for the armor weight reduction. That means later on if I want to use a greatsword, I can switch without much of a drop.

Essentially, there's "one build" and it's up to you to choose how you minmax it.

And Spoilers: There is a NG+ feature that carries over:
Vitality
Endurance
Strength
Willpower
Proficiency
Weapons
Armor
Skills
Accessories
Items
Lacrima
Blacksmith

So any points spent in not minmaxing now are effectively just moving forward towards making your character better for a different playstyle in a future run.


Also, I think people WILDLY undervalue stamina and stamina damage. Stamina is a HUGE resource in Khazan. EVERYTHING YOU DO consumes stamina in some way, and there's not many ways to quickly regenerate it outside of breaks, and even THEN you still risk eating a normal blocked attack if your timing is off so having higher stamina and good stamina regen is important for ANY class, not just for one weapon style.

[Baron01]

I have now cleared first two regions with all of their main and side missions on Normal difficulty and Viper is still by far the most difficult boss I have encountered in just pure time it took me to defeat him. Viper is a massive step up in difficulty from previous bosses, he truly feels like a first real boss of the game. You will need to learn attack patterns, what are grab attacks, how and when to counter red attacks and how to manage your stamina. You will have to do this for every future boss you encounter as there are very few that are easy--every one of them can pose a challenge. There are technically more difficult bosses ahead but none represent such a steep learning curve as Viper.

[Widgit]

Viper is a skill check and forces you to learn how to fight future bosses properly. It's meant to be a challenge and it's meant to take as many tries as necessary. Naturally a boss like this will also filter out players who don't have the patience for this style of challenge. It's intended. If you come from games like Elden Ring and Sekiro you should already know this, and I'm gonna chalk this up to whining.

[Ace]

Originally posted by Widgit:

Viper is a skill check and forces you to learn how to fight future bosses properly. It's meant to be a challenge and it's meant to take as many tries as necessary. Naturally a boss like this will also filter out players who don't have the patience for this style of challenge. It's intended. If you come from games like Elden Ring and Sekiro you should already know this, and I'm gonna chalk this up to whining.

Plus, Khazan is REALLY forgiving compared to most other souls games. It's rare that you have to run a gauntlet to make it back to a boss, usually your checkpoint (And Lacrima) are OUTSIDE of the boss arena, and you gain Lacrima for every attempt, not just when you win.

So regardless of how many tries it takes, you're effectively farming Lacrima and Skill points.

I kept getting greedy on one particular boss and kept dying to them over and over (I won't spoil which one because it's kind of story relevant) and by the time I left the arena I realized I had gained SEVENTEEN SKILL POINTS and had leveled up FIVE TIMES.

Compared to Souls games where you lose everything and gain nothing until you win, that's VERY forgiving. The actual combat challenge is steeper (Which I actually enjoy) but the "Grief" factor is almost nonexistent unless you're coming at it from a "If I don't win, I'm losing." mindset.

Skill checks are important, and like you said it's the way the game checks to make sure you're paying attention and not just throwing yourself at something until you luck out or getting away with just spamming at enemies and getting lucky with stuns. And for those who just can't seem to cross that threshold, easy mode is RIGHT THERE. There's no shame but the shame you pile on yourself for dropping the difficulty if the challenge is not something you enjoy and just want to see the story.

[TDC SPARTAN]

I felt the same until i stop tying to beat him and then learn his patterns. Once I did that it was pretty easy.

[blackdragon]

Wait until you get to Rangkus dude, sheesh. Viper isn't that bad in hist first phase, it's actually pretty fun, his second phase sucks though. Not because it's hard, it's actually easier than the first but It's very hard to see what's going on will all the effects/haze, and it makes the fight become rather cheap. He's a big monster who doesn't really need to be constrained by the laws of physics, so he moves in a way that's not predictable to someone with skill and a good reaction time. You simply have to "ignore the animation" and learn the timing, which isn't very fun.

That's my biggest complaint about this game, it has plenty of artificial difficulty in the form of wind ups, fake outs, and cheap shots. Take Rangkus for instance, some times his attacks are slow with a long wind up, some times they're extremely quick. He has no consistent tempo. His animations and timings were deliberately crafted to trick you. Plus the guy can literally fly, that's the only way to explain the way he can hang in the air for so long. Not to mention his fire attacks will partially blind you and make it very difficult to actually see where he is and when he's landing. Almost every boss will also hit you with a status effect of some kind. It's easy to make a boss fight hard, what's not easy is making it hard while also making it fun.

And I just want to point this out to anyone comparing this game to Sekiro. If you actually did play Sekiro, you will remember Sekiro has no stamina bar. Some might argue the posture bar is the stamina bar, except posture doesn't deplete wen you dodge or take damage when you attack, only when you get hit. That's makes a massive difference that completely changes the dynamic of Khazan. Your posture and your stamina are the same thing, so every time you attack and dodge you make yourself more vulnerable to being staggered. But the bosses are as quick and as aggressive as they are in Sekiro, so you're at a disadvantage. Essentially, the developers were copying mechanics without understanding how they work together and how to create a balance. If Khazan wants to make stamina and posture the same thing, they need to make the bosses less aggressive and need to move realistically, they can't all have a bunch of 10 hit combinations that also add status effects. The game can't include everything all at once and expect to be balanced. And yes Sekiro is a "rhythm" game in a sense, but you could still reliably play the game based on sight rather than timing or tempo. With Khazan you can't do that, you need to learn the exact timings or you simply won't ptogress. Like I said, you need to "ignore the animations" because they will lie to you, the boss doesn't have to swing a weapon like a real person would. That is artificial difficulty.

[Thanous]

Viper was not even that hard I was expecting to get wreaked from all the forum posts. It makes you lean how to actually play , If you hate viper just stop now,, it gets worse

[btanis20]

I suggest summoning a phantom before you enter the boss room. When you do, make sure that you're tag-teaming Viper and you don't allow your phantom to get smacked around too much... (Or else, you'll end up soloing the boss by yourself and see the inevitable "Khazan Has Fallen" screen.)

[War61]

Originally posted by gonk:

For anyone struggling with Viper; get the full Hunter armor set. It helps A LOT. You can get it by grinding the red guys you can summon in the second-to-last bonfire in the temple.

THANK YOU!!! THIS did it for me! Was able to get passed this boss after getting 4 pieces.

[vldgunner]

Smashed my controler

[Alex]

Originally posted by ReadyNick:

I had a tough time with Viper, but just wait till the goat personally I found the goat harder ;)

Same. The goat was a pain until I slapped on some fire resistance. Viper took me 8 tries but that goat was 15.