Robbed at the Game Awards

[Bogart]

How tf did this "lose" to Astro Bot? Oh right, it's the same reason RDR2 "lost" to GoW

[Ronery]

Originally posted by Hanzo:

Originally posted by Ronery:

While it has some anime moments that need you to suspend your disbelief, It's a perfectly fine story, consistent with its themes and a leg above its JRPG contemporaries. If you're allergic to that sort of thing I can see why you would think is stupid, but I would say its one of Hashino's better games in terms of writing and pacing.

Nice joke. Even P5 story much better that this.
I guess it depends on which games you play. Good pacing? Consistent? Did you beat the story? Even silly soap opera of Yakuza IW much better than this.

Persona has a pacing problem where they pad out the midpoint of the story and it takes significantly more time to go through instead of actually moving the plot forward. P5 in particular is very much guilty of this, especially during Okumura to Sae's Palace. No, we didnt need Ryuji and Morgana bickering, Haru was an incredibly late addition to the cast that had minimal development as a result, which Metaphor learned from by introducing Basilio earlier with actual presence and development and not just a few scenes here and there. The entire arc criticizing the Phantom Thieves took way too long to resolve as well, on top of Okumura's palace being the worst one. Metaphor knows how to wrap things up, it didn't need to add more filler by the time you've reached Altabury, you already have the mcguffin lance, you had developed characters and motivations at that point, and it needed to end.

I'm curious how would you say that the game is not consistent to its themes? This game wears that on its sleeve proudly and is not afraid to question those themes only to reinforce it.

[Hanzo]

Originally posted by Ronery:

Originally posted by Hanzo:

Nice joke. Even P5 story much better that this.
I guess it depends on which games you play. Good pacing? Consistent? Did you beat the story? Even silly soap opera of Yakuza IW much better than this.

Persona has a pacing problem where they pad out the midpoint of the story and it takes significantly more time to go through instead of actually moving the plot forward. P5 in particular is very much guilty of this, especially during Okumura to Sae's Palace. No, we didnt need Ryuji and Morgana bickering, Haru was an incredibly late addition to the cast that had minimal development as a result, which Metaphor learned from by introducing Basilio earlier with actual presence and development and not just a few scenes here and there. The entire arc criticizing the Phantom Thieves took way too long to resolve as well, on top of Okumura's palace being the worst one. Metaphor knows how to wrap things up, it didn't need to add more filler by the time you've reached Altabury, you already have the mcguffin lance, you had developed characters and motivations at that point, and it needed to end.

I'm curious how would you say that the game is not consistent to its themes? This game wears that on its sleeve proudly and is not afraid to question those themes only to reinforce it.

Oh that's a bad pacing? Though I find Morgana "arc" the worst part of the game it still holds ok in terms of space. Haru? Let's talk about ___Basilio___ that you've mentioned, which has pretty much same problem to extent when you can even mess with their SL because there is not enough time, which is not a problem for Haru
What about pacing after you find the culprit? Was it nice pacing? Are you happy that there is no ___another Okumura palace ?
How about the pacing where you go fight the same character over and over again? Nice pacing?
Not consistent? Here you go

1. Main villain is an idiot as he looks in the end game? No. Dude was presented being great strategist and commander. But guess what? Let's make him stupid
2. Does king chains kill people? Because sometimes they do, sometimes they don't (when you fight monk on your way to 2nd place)
3. What is about "duel" and chains again? Is 4 vs 1 is considered a duel? Why the heck dude with dog has been struggled to death? Did the duel ended then? Can duel end when there is no winner?
4. Do I even need to talk about opera "twist"?
5. How the hell necromancer is alive after falling from the great height and used all strength to revive a human. Gravity is not a part of setting?
6. How the ship turns in gundam with people inside in the end?
7. How reviving a prince with half of body as "magla" is a part of the world?
8. Game starts as dark fantasy, but in the end turns in another silly anime friendship crap
9. If king can remove his magic as he wish, why he didn't punish Loo for killing the church dude. We know that king can make decisions, so why he didn't punish him for breaking rules?

[Ronery]

Originally posted by Hanzo:

Originally posted by Ronery:

Persona has a pacing problem where they pad out the midpoint of the story and it takes significantly more time to go through instead of actually moving the plot forward. P5 in particular is very much guilty of this, especially during Okumura to Sae's Palace. No, we didnt need Ryuji and Morgana bickering, Haru was an incredibly late addition to the cast that had minimal development as a result, which Metaphor learned from by introducing Basilio earlier with actual presence and development and not just a few scenes here and there. The entire arc criticizing the Phantom Thieves took way too long to resolve as well, on top of Okumura's palace being the worst one. Metaphor knows how to wrap things up, it didn't need to add more filler by the time you've reached Altabury, you already have the mcguffin lance, you had developed characters and motivations at that point, and it needed to end.

I'm curious how would you say that the game is not consistent to its themes? This game wears that on its sleeve proudly and is not afraid to question those themes only to reinforce it.

Oh that's a bad pacing? Though I find Morgana "arc" the worst part of the game it still holds ok in terms of space. Haru? Let's talk about ___Basilio___ that you've mentioned, which has pretty much same problem to extend when you can even mess with their SL because there is not enough time, which is not a problem for Haru
Not consistent? Here you go

1. Main villain is an idiot as he looks in the end game? No. Dude was presented being great strategist and commander. But guess what? Let's make him stupid
2. Does king chains kill people? Because sometimes they do, sometimes they don't (when you fight monk on your way to 2nd place)
3. What is about "duel" and chains again? Is 4 vs 1 is considered a duel? Why the heck dude with dog has been struggled to death? Did the duel ended then? Can duel end when there is no winner?
4. Do I even need to talk about opera "twist"?
5. How the hell necromancer is alive after falling from the great height and used all strength to revive a human. Gravity is not a part of setting?
6. How the ship turns in gundam with people inside in the end?
7. How reviving a prince with half of body as "magla" is a part of the world?
8. Game starts as dark fantasy, but in the end turns in another silly anime friendship crap

We're not talking about developing the in-game social link numbers for Basilio, but rather as a character in general. You already know about Basilio by the time you reach Brilehaven and his motivations as well. You know by Virga Island that he's questioning his allegiance to Louis, so when you actually do get him, it doesn't feel tacked on for the purposes of having a 7th party member. Compare that to Haru, who you only see in an anime cutscene riding a car during Kaneshiro's arc. You don't know anything about this girl, and by the time you get her she's just another party member, not someone with actual motivations to stay with you til the end.

1.) How is Louis an idiot?
2.) Its literally in the memorandum entry, if you still hold the intent to kill, it will tighten until it crushes you
3.) Glodell is not placed high enough to warrant protections chains. The MC only had protection chains during the night of the soiree.
4.) What about the twist specifically that irks you so much?
5.) They've shown no body of Zorba, the party didn't see a corpse either, and he's a necromancer, it's not out there to completely rule out that he survived the fall. Everytime someone actually dies in this game, they show the corpse, whether its Grius, Joanna, Forden, Rella or even Louis in the theatre, which is why the twist that he got resurrected was a lot more impactful since you actually saw the body this time. When you beat Zorba the second time, the game shows you his corpse in Grand Trad to say that "yes, he's actually dead this time."
6.) Archetypes are embodiment of heroes found in Euchronia's history powered by Magla, which is anxiety. By the end of the game, the MC has grown to embody the archetype of the King, as More points out after you fight him and after you beat Louis.
7.) The Prince's mother explained that the MC was a fragment of the Prince's soul made manifest by her magic. Having him go to his body to make the prince whole makes sense.
8.) It was never dark fantasy. This is a JRPG from the creators of Persona whose main message in this game in particular is that utopias dont and will never exist, political systems have their winners and losers, people will hate each other for arbitrary reasons no matter what and that there is no grand solution to fix everyone's problems, so the game proposes that the only way to change things in the long run is to do your best on a personal level for your fellow man instead of attacking others and forcing change through some grand agenda. It's a poignant message that most people can relate to. If you wanted a dark fantasy RPG, you should be playing Koudelka or Shadow Hearts, not this game.

[Hanzo]

Originally posted by Ronery:

We're not talking about developing the in-game social link numbers for Basilio, but rather as a character in general. You already know about Basilio by the time you reach Brilehaven and his motivations as well. You know by Virga Island that he's questioning his allegiance to Louis, so when you actually do get him, it doesn't feel tacked on for the purposes of having a 7th party member. Compare that to Haru, who you only see in an anime cutscene riding a car during Kaneshiro's arc. You don't know anything about this girl, and by the time you get her she's just another party member, not someone with actual motivations to stay with you til the end.

1.) How is Louis an idiot?
2.) Its literally in the memorandum entry, if you still hold the intent to kill, it will tighten until it crushes you
3.) Glodell is not placed high enough to warrant protections chains. The MC only had protection chains during the night of the soiree.
4.) What about the twist specifically that irks you so much?
5.) They've shown no body of Zorba, the party didn't see a corpse either, and he's a necromancer, it's not out there to completely rule out that he survived the fall. Everytime someone actually dies in this game, they show the corpse, whether its Grius, Joanna, Forden, Rella or even Louis in the theatre, which is why the twist that he got resurrected was a lot more impactful since you actually saw the body this time. When you beat Zorba the second time, the game shows you his corpse in Grand Trad to say that "yes, he's actually dead this time."
6.) Archetypes are embodiment of heroes found in Euchronia's history powered by Magla, which is anxiety. By the end of the game, the MC has grown to embody the archetype of the King, as More points out after you fight him and after you beat Louis.
7.) The Prince's mother explained that the MC was a fragment of the Prince's soul made manifest by her magic. Having him go to his body to make the prince whole makes sense.
8.) It was never dark fantasy. This is a JRPG from the creators of Persona whose main message in this game in particular is that utopias dont and will never exist, political systems have their winners and losers, people will hate each other for arbitrary reasons no matter what and that there is no grand solution to fix everyone's problems, so the game proposes that the only way to change things in the long run is to do your best on a personal level for your fellow man instead of attacking others and forcing change through some grand agenda. It's a poignant message that most people can relate to. If you wanted a dark fantasy RPG, you should be playing Koudelka or Shadow Hearts, not this game.

Oh yes? So how much about their motivation do you know? Will it take at least 1 sheet of paper? You have pretty much same with Haru

1. What the point of killing innocent people after his "revival"? Was it smart move? Instead of taking people's trust he decided to do that because? Because of what?
2. So let's combine it with part 9. Why Loo is alive?
3. He was number 10 if I remember correctly. His face is shown on the stone. When he died he didn't look like he has intend to kill, but it was very "convenient" to do so
4. About dude surviving hole in his chest after another dude died from very same hole, even lesser in size
5. Oh riiiiight. You didn't see the body. Gravity is for the stupid and also all talks about that reviving someone especially human would probably take toll
6. Oh right. So why it's back later? Why it didn't stay that way? What was the purpose? Oh about all those anxious stuff. What happened with kings staff? Where did he get magla?
7. Oh so only part of the soul can revive? What a nice way. Why they didn't revive everyone that way? Like Loo mother? Very easy to do. Not Deus ex machina at all
8. I've played both koudelka in old PS1 days, and SH on PS2 days. They are not dark fantasy games if we use your definition. Metaphor starts with killing and grim and then goes to shiny rainbows.

[Ronery]

Originally posted by Hanzo:

Originally posted by Ronery:

We're not talking about developing the in-game social link numbers for Basilio, but rather as a character in general. You already know about Basilio by the time you reach Brilehaven and his motivations as well. You know by Virga Island that he's questioning his allegiance to Louis, so when you actually do get him, it doesn't feel tacked on for the purposes of having a 7th party member. Compare that to Haru, who you only see in an anime cutscene riding a car during Kaneshiro's arc. You don't know anything about this girl, and by the time you get her she's just another party member, not someone with actual motivations to stay with you til the end.

1.) How is Louis an idiot?
2.) Its literally in the memorandum entry, if you still hold the intent to kill, it will tighten until it crushes you
3.) Glodell is not placed high enough to warrant protections chains. The MC only had protection chains during the night of the soiree.
4.) What about the twist specifically that irks you so much?
5.) They've shown no body of Zorba, the party didn't see a corpse either, and he's a necromancer, it's not out there to completely rule out that he survived the fall. Everytime someone actually dies in this game, they show the corpse, whether its Grius, Joanna, Forden, Rella or even Louis in the theatre, which is why the twist that he got resurrected was a lot more impactful since you actually saw the body this time. When you beat Zorba the second time, the game shows you his corpse in Grand Trad to say that "yes, he's actually dead this time."
6.) Archetypes are embodiment of heroes found in Euchronia's history powered by Magla, which is anxiety. By the end of the game, the MC has grown to embody the archetype of the King, as More points out after you fight him and after you beat Louis.
7.) The Prince's mother explained that the MC was a fragment of the Prince's soul made manifest by her magic. Having him go to his body to make the prince whole makes sense.
8.) It was never dark fantasy. This is a JRPG from the creators of Persona whose main message in this game in particular is that utopias dont and will never exist, political systems have their winners and losers, people will hate each other for arbitrary reasons no matter what and that there is no grand solution to fix everyone's problems, so the game proposes that the only way to change things in the long run is to do your best on a personal level for your fellow man instead of attacking others and forcing change through some grand agenda. It's a poignant message that most people can relate to. If you wanted a dark fantasy RPG, you should be playing Koudelka or Shadow Hearts, not this game.

Oh yes? So how much about their motivation do you know? Will it take at least 1 sheet of paper? You have pretty much same with Haru

1. What the point of killing innocent people after his "revival"? Was it smart move? Instead of taking people's trust he decided to do that because? Because of what?
2. So let's combine it with part 9. Why Loo is alive?
3. He was number 10 if I remember correctly. His face is shown on the stone. When he died he didn't look like he has intend to kill, but it was very "convenient" to do so
4. About dude surviving hole in his chest after another dude died from very same hole, even lesser in size
5. Oh riiiiight. You didn't see the body. Gravity is for the stupid and also all talks about that reviving someone especially human would probably take toll
6. Oh right. So why it's back later? Why it didn't stay that way? What was the purpose? Oh about all those anxious stuff. What happened with kings staff? Where did he get magla?
7. Oh so only part of the soul can revive? What a nice way. Why they didn't revive everyone that way? Like Loo mother? Very easy to do. Not Deus ex machina at all
8. I've played both koudelka in old PS1 days, and SH on PS2 days. They are not dark fantasy games if we use your definition. Metaphor starts with killing and grim and then goes to shiny rainbows.

Basilio and Fidelio initially follow Louis since they believed his ideals but after realizing that he might not care for them afterall at around the end of the Virga Island arc, he started doubting him. This comes full circle when Louis kills Fidelio, so of course he has the motivation to kill Louis. Meanwhile, compare that to Haru, whose character arc already finishes by the end of Okumura's chapter. The game spends more time trying to introduce you to a new character at the 70% mark, making you care less about her.
1.) That's the point of Louis' entire character. He was an idealist crushed by his experiences of having his home burned and made into a scapegoat for the Prince's assassination. His idea of an equal meritocratic world sounds good at first but he doesn't tell everyone what that actually entails, it means he is an accelerationist whose idea of fixing the world is to force everyone to be a Human, and if they aren't strong enough to turn back like how the Prince did, then they weren't worthy for his new world to begin with. Louis says he never lies directly, but he lies by omission. He's supposed to stand in for people who can only think of nuclear options to fix problems, not understanding that society is more complex and can't be solved by simple binary decisions. He doesn't trust anyone because of what happened to him, and the by the end of the game, Zorba who is the only dedicated person left, dies.
2.) Is Loo, the Prince? The Prince is placed under a degenerative curse, he's already in a comatosed state.
3.) No you're right, Glodell WAS in the top 10 (top 4 I believe). I actually loaded a save file just now. What happens is that Junah GOADS him into a duel. He introduces himself as Glodell the hero. Glodell then asks the MC to introduce himself, making the duel valid. After the fight, the duel clause is no longer valid, so the cheap shot he does counts as a violation
4.) Zorba explained it plainly well, when the MC stabs Louis, he actually misses his heart, so that gives Zorba enough leeway to revive him. He's a necromancer remember? He can revive the dead. If you're talking about Fidelio, well even if Louis missed the heart, no one present can revive him.
5.) How are you so sure that his body actually landed on the ground? You didn't see his corpse. Number 1 fantasy rule is a necromancer is never truly dead until you make sure he's dead.
6.) I'm not sure if I understand your question, I'm pretty sure the MC still has the King's Archetype, afterall he IS the king by the end of the game. The king's staff is still with Louis and disintegrates when you beat him. Its purpose is to gather all the country's anxiety to fuel royal magic, that isn't linked to how the MC gained the King's Archetype, that was his growth as a person.
7.) Not at all Deus Ex Machina. The Prince's mother is an Elda, and not just any Elda, but the Eldan Queen, whose knowledge of magic is unparalleled and mostly rejected by the teachings of the Sanctist Church. It's not farfetched that she can command this sort of magic. After all, its not like magic is off limits to anyone, everyone can do magic but in the current setting of Metaphor, the closure of the Mage Academy and the use of Igniters which limits magic has stunted magic use among the general populace.
8.) And Metaphor isn't dark fantasy, its a fantasy JRPG with dark themes but are not at all dark fantasy. If your definition of Dark Fantasy RPG isnt just gothic but involves gritty themes then Dark Souls, or Fear and Hunger would fare better. Studio Zero doesn't dabble in these themes, its a publisher/studio famous for uplifting social commentary and positive themes of trust and commitment when they were still part of P-Studio. Even Persona 3 managed to be uplifting despite being depressing.

[Obi WanX Konami]

Originally posted by Stoibs:

To the people saying it shouldn't have won best narrative, what would you have chosen instead?

Silent Hill 2

The voice acting, motion capture and emotion displayed in that game was beyond compare this year. The story was adult visceral and real.

All the recent JRPG games have a habit of being tropes of each other with the same anime characters, same high pitched voices and same overblown plot lines with characters that are unrealistic. They never touch on real visceral subject matter in a mature way, the plot often falls flat and the voice acting is usually abysmal. Half the characters having the same flawless anime face etc.

Don't get me wrong, I love persona games and jrpgs but they often fail to touch me emotionally and they haven't tried to innovate the genre in decades. I remember when rpgs like Suikoden's were a must buy but now its like playing the same game over and over.

[ishiki]

if silent hill 2 was nomninated for narrative it should have won it.

I agree with the argument that it should not be nominated. But since it was nominated. It's banana's that it didn't win.

[Hanzo]

Originally posted by Ronery:

Basilio and Fidelio initially follow Louis since they believed his ideals but after realizing that he might not care for them afterall at around the end of the Virga Island arc, he started doubting him. This comes full circle when Louis kills Fidelio, so of course he has the motivation to kill Louis. Meanwhile, compare that to Haru, whose character arc already finishes by the end of Okumura's chapter. The game spends more time trying to introduce you to a new character at the 70% mark, making you care less about her.
1.) That's the point of Louis' entire character. He was an idealist crushed by his experiences of having his home burned and made into a scapegoat for the Prince's assassination. His idea of an equal meritocratic world sounds good at first but he doesn't tell everyone what that actually entails, it means he is an accelerationist whose idea of fixing the world is to force everyone to be a Human, and if they aren't strong enough to turn back like how the Prince did, then they weren't worthy for his new world to begin with. Louis says he never lies directly, but he lies by omission. He's supposed to stand in for people who can only think of nuclear options to fix problems, not understanding that society is more complex and can't be solved by simple binary decisions. He doesn't trust anyone because of what happened to him, and the by the end of the game, Zorba who is the only dedicated person left, dies.
2.) Is Loo, the Prince? The Prince is placed under a degenerative curse, he's already in a comatosed state.
3.) No you're right, Glodell WAS in the top 10 (top 4 I believe). I actually loaded a save file just now. What happens is that Junah GOADS him into a duel. He introduces himself as Glodell the hero. Glodell then asks the MC to introduce himself, making the duel valid. After the fight, the duel clause is no longer valid, so the cheap shot he does counts as a violation
4.) Zorba explained it plainly well, when the MC stabs Louis, he actually misses his heart, so that gives Zorba enough leeway to revive him. He's a necromancer remember? He can revive the dead. If you're talking about Fidelio, well even if Louis missed the heart, no one present can revive him.
5.) How are you so sure that his body actually landed on the ground? You didn't see his corpse. Number 1 fantasy rule is a necromancer is never truly dead until you make sure he's dead.
6.) I'm not sure if I understand your question, I'm pretty sure the MC still has the King's Archetype, afterall he IS the king by the end of the game. The king's staff is still with Louis and disintegrates when you beat him. Its purpose is to gather all the country's anxiety to fuel royal magic, that isn't linked to how the MC gained the King's Archetype, that was his growth as a person.
7.) Not at all Deus Ex Machina. The Prince's mother is an Elda, and not just any Elda, but the Eldan Queen, whose knowledge of magic is unparalleled and mostly rejected by the teachings of the Sanctist Church. It's not farfetched that she can command this sort of magic. After all, its not like magic is off limits to anyone, everyone can do magic but in the current setting of Metaphor, the closure of the Mage Academy and the use of Igniters which limits magic has stunted magic use among the general populace.
8.) And Metaphor isn't dark fantasy, its a fantasy JRPG with dark themes but are not at all dark fantasy. If your definition of Dark Fantasy RPG isnt just gothic but involves gritty themes then Dark Souls, or Fear and Hunger would fare better. Studio Zero doesn't dabble in these themes, its a publisher/studio famous for uplifting social commentary and positive themes of trust and commitment when they were still part of P-Studio. Even Persona 3 managed to be uplifting despite being depressing.

So all your motivation is several sentences. A big work has been done. Consider the fact that some of that repeats during SL of this character

1. He was pretty cold and composed even during the scene when he says Strahl about that it was him who decided to not help his village. He is still very calculative and what he's done during the opera breaking his character.
2. Loo is Louis if you didn't get it. My question here the same why king didn't kill him after he killed candidate in opera. He has ability to change rules and observe.
3. We don't know when duel considered finished. More to that he's killed though "he didn't have an intent killing" because he didn't want to die.
4. Missed heart when he has a great hole in the center of the chest? Do you learn anatomy? Heart is actually close to center of your chest. Why Forden died having even smaller hole in his chest? How MC survived ripping his own heart from the very same hole?
5. That is what a part of bad narration. You may like it, but this is considered a bad writing. Did we see Loo body? What about Del? Maybe he's alive? Did we see curse wielder die? No she's frozen. Let's revive her too.
6. So you're saying that gundam is done just by archetype? Did you see that archetype changed something before? Maybe there is some info that archetype can change world around them not just using healing/attacking magic? What was even the reason gundam scene, when you've already defeated Loo lot of times
7. So why didn't they revived everyone? Inluding Loo mother. If that's what they could do why limit with only 1 person? Maybe revive yourself? Or maybe help your husband?
8. Game shows medieval setting. In start of the game you see people are hanged and killed. Strahl has his entire home killed. Humans kill people. Second arc story and it's end. I would considered that dark fantasy when the game tells dark themes.

[Ronery]

Originally posted by Hanzo:

Originally posted by Ronery:

Basilio and Fidelio initially follow Louis since they believed his ideals but after realizing that he might not care for them afterall at around the end of the Virga Island arc, he started doubting him. This comes full circle when Louis kills Fidelio, so of course he has the motivation to kill Louis. Meanwhile, compare that to Haru, whose character arc already finishes by the end of Okumura's chapter. The game spends more time trying to introduce you to a new character at the 70% mark, making you care less about her.
1.) That's the point of Louis' entire character. He was an idealist crushed by his experiences of having his home burned and made into a scapegoat for the Prince's assassination. His idea of an equal meritocratic world sounds good at first but he doesn't tell everyone what that actually entails, it means he is an accelerationist whose idea of fixing the world is to force everyone to be a Human, and if they aren't strong enough to turn back like how the Prince did, then they weren't worthy for his new world to begin with. Louis says he never lies directly, but he lies by omission. He's supposed to stand in for people who can only think of nuclear options to fix problems, not understanding that society is more complex and can't be solved by simple binary decisions. He doesn't trust anyone because of what happened to him, and the by the end of the game, Zorba who is the only dedicated person left, dies.
2.) Is Loo, the Prince? The Prince is placed under a degenerative curse, he's already in a comatosed state.
3.) No you're right, Glodell WAS in the top 10 (top 4 I believe). I actually loaded a save file just now. What happens is that Junah GOADS him into a duel. He introduces himself as Glodell the hero. Glodell then asks the MC to introduce himself, making the duel valid. After the fight, the duel clause is no longer valid, so the cheap shot he does counts as a violation
4.) Zorba explained it plainly well, when the MC stabs Louis, he actually misses his heart, so that gives Zorba enough leeway to revive him. He's a necromancer remember? He can revive the dead. If you're talking about Fidelio, well even if Louis missed the heart, no one present can revive him.
5.) How are you so sure that his body actually landed on the ground? You didn't see his corpse. Number 1 fantasy rule is a necromancer is never truly dead until you make sure he's dead.
6.) I'm not sure if I understand your question, I'm pretty sure the MC still has the King's Archetype, afterall he IS the king by the end of the game. The king's staff is still with Louis and disintegrates when you beat him. Its purpose is to gather all the country's anxiety to fuel royal magic, that isn't linked to how the MC gained the King's Archetype, that was his growth as a person.
7.) Not at all Deus Ex Machina. The Prince's mother is an Elda, and not just any Elda, but the Eldan Queen, whose knowledge of magic is unparalleled and mostly rejected by the teachings of the Sanctist Church. It's not farfetched that she can command this sort of magic. After all, its not like magic is off limits to anyone, everyone can do magic but in the current setting of Metaphor, the closure of the Mage Academy and the use of Igniters which limits magic has stunted magic use among the general populace.
8.) And Metaphor isn't dark fantasy, its a fantasy JRPG with dark themes but are not at all dark fantasy. If your definition of Dark Fantasy RPG isnt just gothic but involves gritty themes then Dark Souls, or Fear and Hunger would fare better. Studio Zero doesn't dabble in these themes, its a publisher/studio famous for uplifting social commentary and positive themes of trust and commitment when they were still part of P-Studio. Even Persona 3 managed to be uplifting despite being depressing.

So all your motivation is several sentences. A big work has been done. Consider the fact that some of that repeats during SL of this character

1. He was pretty cold and composed even during the scene when he says Strahl about that it was him who decided to not help his village. He is still very calculative and what he's done during the opera breaking his character.
2. Loo is Louis if you didn't get it. My question here the same why king didn't kill him after he killed candidate in opera. He has ability to change rules and observe.
3. We don't know when duel considered finished. More to that he's killed though "he didn't have an intent killing" because he didn't want to die.
4. Missed heart when he has a great hole in the center of the chest? Do you learn anatomy? Heart is actually close to center of your chest. Why Forden died having even smaller hole in his chest? How MC survived ripping his own heart from the very same hole?
5. That is what a part of bad narration. You may like it, but this is considered a bad writing. Did we see Loo body? What about Del? Maybe he's alive? Did we see curse wielder die? No she's frozen. Let's revive her too.
6. So you're saying that gundam is done just by archetype? Did you see that archetype changed something before? Maybe there is some info that archetype can change world around them not just using healing/attacking magic? What was even the reason gundam scene, when you've already defeated Loo lot of times
7. So why didn't they revived everyone? Inluding Loo mother. If that's what they could do why limit with only 1 person? Maybe revive yourself? Or maybe help your husband?
8. Game shows medieval setting. In start of the game you see people are hanged and killed. Strahl has his entire home killed. Humans kill people. Second arc story and it's end. I would considered that dark fantasy when the game tells dark themes.

1.) Louis had always a flair for theatrics. When the king died, the first thing he did was to gloat in his funeral by barging in with his airship while gliding down with the royal flowers, tantamount to calling himself the next king. There's also a very good reason why he needs to brag in the theatre; he needed for Forden to admit that he was the one who put the assassination order on the Prince, so when he does kill Forden, he can clear his name in front of everyone since Forden put the blame of the Prince's assassination on Louis. He is composed but immediately shows-off when he needs to.

2.) Why would the king interfere? He didn't break any rules explicitly. The Protective Chains only occurs when someone breaks the rules laid by the Royal Magic, the main reason he procured Drakodios was to bypass this to begin with, which is not equal to breaking it. Later on, Louis tells the King and everyone about this; the lance makes it unfair since he can just kill the candidates so he forces the King to remove the protective chains for 2 reasons:
i. Louis only claims what he wins fairly by his terms. Its in his character to overcome obstacles by his own hands.
ii. To bolster his popularity even more since disabling the protective magic while he's in the top 3 means he's more than willing to show he isn't a coward.

3.) The duel finished when Glodell begged for his life to be spared. He already lost the duel he was goaded into by Junah. The second he tried a sneak attack, that one was no longer protected by the Duel clause, violating the rules.

4.) He was stabbed but the point is as long as there's a workable heart for Zorba, that would be enough for him to revive Louis with his necromancy. Also, Louis would have died regardless if Zorba wasn't there, which they already planned before. Forden didn't have the luxury of someone reviving him, missed heart or not.

5.) Every character you mentioned all had their corpses revealed. Junah even explicitly states that Rella no longer has a pulse when she was frozen, even Grius had his corpse shown: He died once after being killed by Louis, then revived by Zorba, showing the extent of his abilities. Zorba, had no corpse or body to be found when he jumped off the cathedral roof, although it does require a bit of suspension of disbelief to accept.

6.) Louis was still alive and actively attacking the gauntlet runner in the cutscene since his resolve is strong to kill the Party. The King's Archetype scene is supposed to be a scene showing the culmination of the MC's growth as a character and his will to be King. It's the same as Makoto using the Great Seal on Nyx in Persona 3, or Yu using Myriad Truths in Persona 4, or Joker summoning Satanael in Persona 5. Since archetypes are a power that comes from overcoming your anxiety, the MC has already overcome his anxiety to become King when he beats More. Again, More says so himself, by overcoming all the obstacles thrown at the MC and even rejecting his proposal to stay in the fantasy novel he wrote, he's finally fit for the role of King.

7.) No one understands magic extensively in the current world of Metaphor since the Sanctist Church banned the ability to use magic without an igniter. It's also not as easy as it sounds since the circumstances of both the Prince and Hythlodeaus V are unique: The MC and More are manifested beings composed of their souls and a strong will. In the MC's case, he was able to fuse with the Prince since a physical body is still present. In More's case, there is no longer a physical body to go back to, so resurrection is no longer possible. Its the same reason why the Prince's mother can no longer be revived, she already has no physical body.

8.) Unfortunately, that's just not the kind of studio Atlus is. You've played enough JRPGs to know what they specialize in, and Studio Zero / P-Studio does not do dark, gritty and depressing themes and settings; its the same as expecting Falcom to do dark, gritty and depressing themes, it won't happen. Maybe mainline Shin Megami Tensei, but not games developed by Studio Zero/P-Studio. The beginning of Metaphor explicitly shows those scenes as a way to establish that the setting has great inequality and divide. It shows that the game doesn't shy away from dark themes, but it doesn't mean that its a Dark Fantasy RPG.

[Hanzo]

Originally posted by Ronery:

1.) Louis had always a flair for theatrics. When the king died, the first thing he did was to gloat in his funeral by barging in with his airship while gliding down with the royal flowers, tantamount to calling himself the next king. There's also a very good reason why he needs to brag in the theatre; he needed for Forden to admit that he was the one who put the assassination order on the Prince, so when he does kill Forden, he can clear his name in front of everyone since Forden put the blame of the Prince's assassination on Louis. He is composed but immediately shows-off when he needs to.

2.) Why would the king interfere? He didn't break any rules explicitly. The Protective Chains only occurs when someone breaks the rules laid by the Royal Magic, the main reason he procured Drakodios was to bypass this to begin with, which is not equal to breaking it. Later on, Louis tells the King and everyone about this; the lance makes it unfair since he can just kill the candidates so he forces the King to remove the protective chains for 2 reasons:
i. Louis only claims what he wins fairly by his terms. Its in his character to overcome obstacles by his own hands.
ii. To bolster his popularity even more since disabling the protective magic while he's in the top 3 means he's more than willing to show he isn't a coward.

3.) The duel finished when Glodell begged for his life to be spared. He already lost the duel he was goaded into by Junah. The second he tried a sneak attack, that one was no longer protected by the Duel clause, violating the rules.

4.) He was stabbed but the point is as long as there's a workable heart for Zorba, that would be enough for him to revive Louis with his necromancy. Also, Louis would have died regardless if Zorba wasn't there, which they already planned before. Forden didn't have the luxury of someone reviving him, missed heart or not.

5.) Every character you mentioned all had their corpses revealed. Junah even explicitly states that Rella no longer has a pulse when she was frozen, even Grius had his corpse shown: He died once after being killed by Louis, then revived by Zorba, showing the extent of his abilities. Zorba, had no corpse or body to be found when he jumped off the cathedral roof, although it does require a bit of suspension of disbelief to accept.

6.) Louis was still alive and actively attacking the gauntlet runner in the cutscene since his resolve is strong to kill the Party. The King's Archetype scene is supposed to be a scene showing the culmination of the MC's growth as a character and his will to be King. It's the same as Makoto using the Great Seal on Nyx in Persona 3, or Yu using Myriad Truths in Persona 4, or Joker summoning Satanael in Persona 5. Since archetypes are a power that comes from overcoming your anxiety, the MC has already overcome his anxiety to become King when he beats More. Again, More says so himself, by overcoming all the obstacles thrown at the MC and even rejecting his proposal to stay in the fantasy novel he wrote, he's finally fit for the role of King.

7.) No one understands magic extensively in the current world of Metaphor since the Sanctist Church banned the ability to use magic without an igniter. It's also not as easy as it sounds since the circumstances of both the Prince and Hythlodeaus V are unique: The MC and More are manifested beings composed of their souls and a strong will. In the MC's case, he was able to fuse with the Prince since a physical body is still present. In More's case, there is no longer a physical body to go back to, so resurrection is no longer possible. Its the same reason why the Prince's mother can no longer be revived, she already has no physical body.

8.) Unfortunately, that's just not the kind of studio Atlus is. You've played enough JRPGs to know what they specialize in, and Studio Zero / P-Studio does not do dark, gritty and depressing themes and settings; its the same as expecting Falcom to do dark, gritty and depressing themes, it won't happen. Maybe mainline Shin Megami Tensei, but not games developed by Studio Zero/P-Studio. The beginning of Metaphor explicitly shows those scenes as a way to establish that the setting has great inequality and divide. It shows that the game doesn't shy away from dark themes, but it doesn't mean that its a Dark Fantasy RPG.

1. Then why he didn't kill people before inflicting fear among people? All your points are wishful thinking. Boasting showing power is not equal killing innocent because of what? What the point for destroying peoples trust, which is main factor for being selected as a ruler?
2. Oh, so you can break rules if you find a way to do it? And it's not a rule breaking, so that is ok? You're considering it good narration?
3. Again. Wishful thinking. We don't know rules. Game breaks and bends rules for the sake of the plot. What about dude that got his throat sliced? Didn't he have kill intent? He had much time to be killed by chains, but did chains kill him? Again you can be wishful thinking that it's good narrative. While it's not consistent and game bend world settings just to move plot
4. How much time Forden needed to die? How much Loo "was dead"? You're again breaking game settings because of wishful thinking. What about 2nd part about MC heart?
5. Would "revived" Loo have a pulse? Again your logic affects extend of this "setting" BS. If they've revived her you would say - we didn't see her body decayed, then you would protect this "narrative" by other crap - her soul didn't left the planet. All that is a bad narrative
6. With one big difference that in persona games evolving of character's persona is part of the world. While transforming ships is not. Did you see Loo body? Can we consider him dead after it?
7. Yeah, that's why it's deux ex machina. You can use such excuses for any magic. We don't know about this world. Zorba reviving all humans? Maybe revive Junnah sister? Or maybe revive everyone can be done, becase "we don't see extent of this world's magic". Call it as you wan't. It's bad narration in my book
8. Well this point is much more subjective in my eyes. So I pretty much agree with you here. It was my expectations, so I cannot blame game for being different. But because of my expectations I feel like game has scar that not that good connected. Like several people had different ideas which were combined badly. But I agree with you here.

[Ronery]

Originally posted by Hanzo:

Originally posted by Ronery:

1.) Louis had always a flair for theatrics. When the king died, the first thing he did was to gloat in his funeral by barging in with his airship while gliding down with the royal flowers, tantamount to calling himself the next king. There's also a very good reason why he needs to brag in the theatre; he needed for Forden to admit that he was the one who put the assassination order on the Prince, so when he does kill Forden, he can clear his name in front of everyone since Forden put the blame of the Prince's assassination on Louis. He is composed but immediately shows-off when he needs to.

2.) Why would the king interfere? He didn't break any rules explicitly. The Protective Chains only occurs when someone breaks the rules laid by the Royal Magic, the main reason he procured Drakodios was to bypass this to begin with, which is not equal to breaking it. Later on, Louis tells the King and everyone about this; the lance makes it unfair since he can just kill the candidates so he forces the King to remove the protective chains for 2 reasons:
i. Louis only claims what he wins fairly by his terms. Its in his character to overcome obstacles by his own hands.
ii. To bolster his popularity even more since disabling the protective magic while he's in the top 3 means he's more than willing to show he isn't a coward.

3.) The duel finished when Glodell begged for his life to be spared. He already lost the duel he was goaded into by Junah. The second he tried a sneak attack, that one was no longer protected by the Duel clause, violating the rules.

4.) He was stabbed but the point is as long as there's a workable heart for Zorba, that would be enough for him to revive Louis with his necromancy. Also, Louis would have died regardless if Zorba wasn't there, which they already planned before. Forden didn't have the luxury of someone reviving him, missed heart or not.

5.) Every character you mentioned all had their corpses revealed. Junah even explicitly states that Rella no longer has a pulse when she was frozen, even Grius had his corpse shown: He died once after being killed by Louis, then revived by Zorba, showing the extent of his abilities. Zorba, had no corpse or body to be found when he jumped off the cathedral roof, although it does require a bit of suspension of disbelief to accept.

6.) Louis was still alive and actively attacking the gauntlet runner in the cutscene since his resolve is strong to kill the Party. The King's Archetype scene is supposed to be a scene showing the culmination of the MC's growth as a character and his will to be King. It's the same as Makoto using the Great Seal on Nyx in Persona 3, or Yu using Myriad Truths in Persona 4, or Joker summoning Satanael in Persona 5. Since archetypes are a power that comes from overcoming your anxiety, the MC has already overcome his anxiety to become King when he beats More. Again, More says so himself, by overcoming all the obstacles thrown at the MC and even rejecting his proposal to stay in the fantasy novel he wrote, he's finally fit for the role of King.

7.) No one understands magic extensively in the current world of Metaphor since the Sanctist Church banned the ability to use magic without an igniter. It's also not as easy as it sounds since the circumstances of both the Prince and Hythlodeaus V are unique: The MC and More are manifested beings composed of their souls and a strong will. In the MC's case, he was able to fuse with the Prince since a physical body is still present. In More's case, there is no longer a physical body to go back to, so resurrection is no longer possible. Its the same reason why the Prince's mother can no longer be revived, she already has no physical body.

8.) Unfortunately, that's just not the kind of studio Atlus is. You've played enough JRPGs to know what they specialize in, and Studio Zero / P-Studio does not do dark, gritty and depressing themes and settings; its the same as expecting Falcom to do dark, gritty and depressing themes, it won't happen. Maybe mainline Shin Megami Tensei, but not games developed by Studio Zero/P-Studio. The beginning of Metaphor explicitly shows those scenes as a way to establish that the setting has great inequality and divide. It shows that the game doesn't shy away from dark themes, but it doesn't mean that its a Dark Fantasy RPG.

1. Then why he didn't kill people before inflicting fear among people? All your points are wishful thinking. Boasting showing power is not equal killing innocent because of what? What the point for destroying peoples trust, which is main factor for being selected as a ruler?
2. Oh, so you can break rules if you find a way to do it? And it's not a rule breaking, so that is ok? You're considering it good narration?
3. Again. Wishful thinking. We don't know rules. Game breaks and bends rules for the sake of the plot. What about dude that got his throat sliced? Didn't he have kill intent? He had much time to be killed by chains, but did chains kill him? Again you can be wishful thinking that it's good narrative. While it's not consistent and game bend world settings just to move plot
4. How much time Forden needed to die? How much Loo "was dead"? You're again breaking game settings because of wishful thinking. What about 2nd part about MC heart?
5. Would "revived" Loo have a pulse? Again your logic affects extend of this "setting" BS. If they've revived her you would say - we didn't see her body decayed, then you would protect this "narrative" by other crap - her soul didn't left the planet. All that is a bad narrative
6. With one big difference that in persona games evolving of character's persona is part of the world. While transforming ships is not. Did you see Loo body? Can we consider him dead after it?
7. Yeah, that's why it's deux ex machina. You can use such excuses for any magic. We don't know about this world. Zorba reviving all humans? Maybe revive Junnah sister? Or maybe revive everyone can be done, becase "we don't see extent of this world's magic". Call it as you wan't. It's bad narration in my book
8. Well this point is much more subjective in my eyes. So I pretty much agree with you here. It was my expectations, so I cannot blame game for being different. But because of my expectations I feel like game has scar that not that good connected. Like several people had different ideas which were combined badly. But I agree with you here.

1.) I don't understand what you're trying to say here. I've already mentioned that Louis' motivation for essentially turning everyone into humans was part of his extremist ideology that only people strong enough in his new world can live in it. When he said he wanted an equal society, he wasn't lying to you, he wanted people who were capable to overcome their anxiety. And he DID kill people, he not only killed the King, he was more than OK to not send any reinforcements to Strohl's village when it was attacked by Humans, along with other villages who were in a similar plight.

2.) Bypassing is not equal to breaking the rules. This has been established multiple times in the story. You can bypass the King's magic with a duel, is that breaking the rules?

3.) Grius was killed immediately by Louis, same with Forden.

4.) Louis was essentially dead when he got stabbed and fell. Zorba is a necromancer capable of resurrecting the dead as long as there's a workable heart. Both of them got stabbed, the difference is Louis had Zorba to revive him. WHy is this diffiicult for you to understand?

5.) The Eldan Queen is dead, she can no longer be revived, her body was burnt when Forden ordered to massacre the Eldan Village. You're using my explanation of "they didn't show the corpse so that means she's alive." To explain her lack of physical body when that event happened many years ago.

6.) I suggest you read more about archetypes in the memorandum. I am now convinced you've either speedread the story if you dont understand how archetypes work, and archetypes are very much "part of the world." If you're fixated on why the King's Archetype became a mecha, that's just rule of cool, and even then, it can be explained by the relic in the gauntlet runner that only resonates with the prince. If you can accept the relic being able to do instant teleportation, then you should be able to accept this.

7.) Why would it be Deus Ex Machina? Its been established multiple times in the setting that most people do not know how magic works. The Mage Academy, the only source of magical knowledge apart from the Elda tribe who are 90% dead, has been shut down. If people don't even know that you can use magic without an igniter, then they do not know the extent of magic. That's why Zorba was treated as an outcast, he is a mixed Mustari-Clemar that has a weird ability of animating the dead and inanimate objects, no one understood him. Rella, a master mage couldn't even find a way to undo the Prince's curse because of an incomplete formula, same with Louis; its not very hard to accept that people in Euchronia have limited magical knowledge and that most of it is either lost or misunderstood; and why would Zorba revive anyone that isn't Louis?

8.) I suggest you play mainline Shin Megami Tensei. Tactics Ogre also, very good political game and one of the best realistic dark fantasy tactical RPGs.

[Hanzo]

Originally posted by Ronery:

1.) I don't understand what you're trying to say here. I've already mentioned that Louis' motivation for essentially turning everyone into humans was part of his extremist ideology that only people strong enough in his new world can live in it. When he said he wanted an equal society, he wasn't lying to you, he wanted people who were capable to overcome their anxiety. And he DID kill people, he not only killed the King, he was more than OK to not send any reinforcements to Strohl's village when it was attacked by Humans, along with other villages who were in a similar plight.

2.) Bypassing is not equal to breaking the rules. This has been established multiple times in the story. You can bypass the King's magic with a duel, is that breaking the rules?

3.) Grius was killed immediately by Louis, same with Forden.

4.) Louis was essentially dead when he got stabbed and fell. Zorba is a necromancer capable of resurrecting the dead as long as there's a workable heart. Both of them got stabbed, the difference is Louis had Zorba to revive him. WHy is this diffiicult for you to understand?

5.) The Eldan Queen is dead, she can no longer be revived, her body was burnt when Forden ordered to massacre the Eldan Village. You're using my explanation of "they didn't show the corpse so that means she's alive." To explain her lack of physical body when that event happened many years ago.

6.) I suggest you read more about archetypes in the memorandum. I am now convinced you've either speedread the story if you dont understand how archetypes work, and archetypes are very much "part of the world." If you're fixated on why the King's Archetype became a mecha, that's just rule of cool, and even then, it can be explained by the relic in the gauntlet runner that only resonates with the prince. If you can accept the relic being able to do instant teleportation, then you should be able to accept this.

7.) Why would it be Deus Ex Machina? Its been established multiple times in the setting that most people do not know how magic works. The Mage Academy, the only source of magical knowledge apart from the Elda tribe who are 90% dead, has been shut down. If people don't even know that you can use magic without an igniter, then they do not know the extent of magic. That's why Zorba was treated as an outcast, he is a mixed Mustari-Clemar that has a weird ability of animating the dead and inanimate objects, no one understood him. Rella, a master mage couldn't even find a way to undo the Prince's curse because of an incomplete formula, same with Louis; its not very hard to accept that people in Euchronia have limited magical knowledge and that most of it is either lost or misunderstood; and why would Zorba revive anyone that isn't Louis?

8.) I suggest you play mainline Shin Megami Tensei. Tactics Ogre also, very good political game and one of the best realistic dark fantasy tactical RPGs.

1. Because end goal of Loo is to be the ruler for his own means. Ruler is decided by number of people who cast their vote. Killing people who vote and can make other vote for a different person is stupid. Thus actions of Loo in opera are stupid, while he isn't stupid, but clever. Not sure how you cannot see the logical conclusion here.
2. The duel is not bypassing rules it is the rule.
3. No he didn't. Loo got some time to draw the dagger. Check the scenes between him and dude with dog
4. How the heart was "not damaged" that's pure BS. Why then Forden died? Does he have heart in different place? Check end scene where MC rips his own heart. Pretty much the same
5. Sorry if I was not clear. I was trying to move from "We didn't see the body" to place where the prince is resurrected while we also see a dead body and no pulse, but "part of his soul". As I say you can go wishful thinking about that it's ok for him to live. But it's bad narration in my book. With this approach you can justify anything and it breaks world setting. Can you say there is some crazy half blood elda with papirus that knows magic how to turn people into humans with their farts? Don't worry they're alone. One more question. Is Zorba dead after falling 2nd time? We seen the body, but if he would be alive what would you think?
6. Can you give me a quote that justifies ship turning to gundam? Sure if I missed it I would like to see it. If not - you can always recheck the scene to see that the power of ship was boosted not archetype.
7. Because it is. You add some additional layer of magic or magic comeback by putting some nonsense to move the story as you wanted it. Pretty much with MC ripping his heart, or ship being able to catch and save all people. Pretty much all in point 5
8. I've played both SMT and TO. Though I wouldn't even call SMT3 dark fantasy, more like post-apocalypse. TO:LUCT has a lot of dark themes and some disturbing after torture and execution scenes

[Ronery]

Originally posted by Hanzo:

Originally posted by Ronery:

1.) I don't understand what you're trying to say here. I've already mentioned that Louis' motivation for essentially turning everyone into humans was part of his extremist ideology that only people strong enough in his new world can live in it. When he said he wanted an equal society, he wasn't lying to you, he wanted people who were capable to overcome their anxiety. And he DID kill people, he not only killed the King, he was more than OK to not send any reinforcements to Strohl's village when it was attacked by Humans, along with other villages who were in a similar plight.

2.) Bypassing is not equal to breaking the rules. This has been established multiple times in the story. You can bypass the King's magic with a duel, is that breaking the rules?

3.) Grius was killed immediately by Louis, same with Forden.

4.) Louis was essentially dead when he got stabbed and fell. Zorba is a necromancer capable of resurrecting the dead as long as there's a workable heart. Both of them got stabbed, the difference is Louis had Zorba to revive him. WHy is this diffiicult for you to understand?

5.) The Eldan Queen is dead, she can no longer be revived, her body was burnt when Forden ordered to massacre the Eldan Village. You're using my explanation of "they didn't show the corpse so that means she's alive." To explain her lack of physical body when that event happened many years ago.

6.) I suggest you read more about archetypes in the memorandum. I am now convinced you've either speedread the story if you dont understand how archetypes work, and archetypes are very much "part of the world." If you're fixated on why the King's Archetype became a mecha, that's just rule of cool, and even then, it can be explained by the relic in the gauntlet runner that only resonates with the prince. If you can accept the relic being able to do instant teleportation, then you should be able to accept this.

7.) Why would it be Deus Ex Machina? Its been established multiple times in the setting that most people do not know how magic works. The Mage Academy, the only source of magical knowledge apart from the Elda tribe who are 90% dead, has been shut down. If people don't even know that you can use magic without an igniter, then they do not know the extent of magic. That's why Zorba was treated as an outcast, he is a mixed Mustari-Clemar that has a weird ability of animating the dead and inanimate objects, no one understood him. Rella, a master mage couldn't even find a way to undo the Prince's curse because of an incomplete formula, same with Louis; its not very hard to accept that people in Euchronia have limited magical knowledge and that most of it is either lost or misunderstood; and why would Zorba revive anyone that isn't Louis?

8.) I suggest you play mainline Shin Megami Tensei. Tactics Ogre also, very good political game and one of the best realistic dark fantasy tactical RPGs.

1. Because end goal of Loo is to be the ruler for his own means. Ruler is decided by number of people who cast their vote. Killing people who vote and can make other vote for a different person is stupid. Thus actions of Loo in opera are stupid, while he isn't stupid, but clever. Not sure how you cannot see the logical conclusion here.
2. The duel is not bypassing rules it is the rule.
3. No he didn't. Loo got some time to draw the dagger. Check the scenes between him and dude with dog
4. How the heart was "not damaged" that's pure BS. Why then Forden died? Does he have heart in different place? Check end scene where MC rips his own heart. Pretty much the same
5. Sorry if I was not clear. I was trying to move from "We didn't see the body" to place where the prince is resurrected while we also see a dead body and no pulse, but "part of his soul". As I say you can go wishful thinking about that it's ok for him to live. But it's bad narration in my book. With this approach you can justify anything and it breaks world setting. Can you say there is some crazy half blood elda with papirus that knows magic how to turn people into humans with their farts? Don't worry they're alone. One more question. Is Zorba dead after falling 2nd time? We seen the body, but if he would be alive what would you think?
6. Can you give me a quote that justifies ship turning to gundam? Sure if I missed it I would like to see it. If not - you can always recheck the scene to see that the power of ship was boosted not archetype.
7. Because it is. You add some additional layer of magic or magic comeback by putting some nonsense to move the story as you wanted it. Pretty much with MC ripping his heart, or ship being able to catch and save all people. Pretty much all in point 5
8. I've played both SMT and TO. Though I wouldn't even call SMT3 dark fantasy, more like post-apocalypse. TO:LUCT has a lot of dark themes and some disturbing after torture and execution scenes

1.) Louis can coerce people out of fear and out of blind loyalty and fanatcism. By the time Louis tricks everyone in Grand Trad that the MC is a monster, most people had no choice but to vote for him out of fear he kill all of them. Louis is already far ahead in the standing by the King's rock, he's already number 1 position. One of the reasons why Hythlodeaus V berated him for entering the Skybound Avatar ahead of the day of judgment is to procure the Royal Sceptre which would turn everyone into Humans. You underestimate the blind loyalty of people to Louis, as it is also reflective of people in real life; even in the face of overwhelming evidence, some people will still defend their candidate of choice. You can even see this when the MC gets crowned as king; there are still Louis supporters who think that the MC cheated Louis.

2.) Duelling is a way to bypass the Royal Magic. Go ahead and read the entry in the memorandum called "The Royal Magic: Protection," and "The Royal Magic: Protection and Duelling." It says here that it is an exception to the rule. Also read the entry called "The True Power of Drakodios."

3.) The one I need to concede to a point. Go read the entry on The Royal Magic: Protection. While it says that the chain will tighten for anyone that holds the intent to harm or kill, it also says that it is unclear whether there is further loopholes to this or not. On one hand, you can argue that its convenient that the chains killed Glodell, but I can also argue that it killed Glodell because he attempted a sneak attack after losing a formal duel, which would be under the condition that he still held the intent to kill, thus killing him.

4.) Forden died for good because he got stabbed and no one resurrected him. Louis is fine because he was resurrected by Zorba, a necromancer. Why would he resurrect anyone else? He's loyal to Louis alone.

5.) No it isn't actually farfetched to think that someone can turn people into humans with their farts, after all, Louis has the ability to forcibly turn people into Humans! Like I said, magic in this world is poorly understood due to the Sanctist Church eliminating any sort of way to study and perform magic without an igniter. If you read on the memorandum on "The Truth on Magic" it says that it's able to break natural phenomenon through training and will, which is not so farfetched considering the old world was able to produce Dragon Weapons to fight their wars, you have relics that can instantly do teleportations and relics that can change the weather at will like with Eupha's brother's relic. These are all powerful magical works, but the important bit to take note of is that none of the people of Euchronia ever knew how magic works so even if resurrection magic, teleportation magic is a thing, most likely only 1 or 2 people know how those magical abilities work

As for Zorba the second time. They showed his corpse, he's dead for good. The first time he jumped off the cathedral, there's really nothing stopping him from hanging on a ledge, You can even make an excuse for him that he was caught by reanimated corpses mid-way. The point is, everytime someone dies for good in this game they show the corpse, but you didn't see Zorba's corpse the first time. The only exception is Louis, who was dead but resurrected by Zorba's abilities.

6.) Go read the memorandum entry on "The Truth about Archetypes," and "The Truth about Relics." Basically, the relic in the gauntlet runner (that not even Neuras knew how it worked) which resonates exclusively with the Prince, was able to turn the him and all the party members into the King's archetype. Being able to transform into the King's Archetype is less about fixating on how it became a mecha, but was intended as a satisfying and climactic way to finish off Louis in a cutscene.

7.) It isnt so much contrivance as it is a measured suspension of disbelief. I would say it would be a convenient way of moving the plot forward if it was not based on anything, but reading the memorandum and knowing how magic is established in this setting; I would say it is fair to suspend disbelief. If magic was well understood and there was no explanation as to why certain people can do certain things, I would agree that it is a plothole. Could it have been written better and more seamlessly? Definitely, but I don't think those are plot contrivances. In this case, the game has made efforts to establish concepts that magic is not very well understood, but at the same time establish that magic is not so easily used by anyone.

8.) Its a post-apocalyptic setting with dark themes with less focus on trust and commitment. Tactics Ogre is actually a really good dark fantasy setting. There's also Fear and Hunger which I highly recommend.

[TNX.]

Surprised how this lost and not Wukong? Regardless Astro Bot deserves it

[DBZ_KAKAROT]

I don't mind a Platformer winning GOTY, God knows Mario deserves it, but my issue with Astro Bot is not that it's not a good game, my issue with it is that it's a good rip-off that lacks originality and not deserving of GOTY. It rips off every original idea from Mario or Wall-e, and there's not an original concept in its bones.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhToluDuofE

What precedence does this set on the industry? That it's ok to rip-off other original ideas? Sony are thieves, they can't create original ideas anymore, so they have to steal/buy other IPs just to have a hit in their hands. If Geoff Keighley wasn't such a Sony bootlicker, Astro Bot would've never won. I wonder how much Sony paid him.