An Ironic Observation Of This Discussion Forum

[birthbysorrow]

The game's message seems to be to eradicate bias and embrace all. And yet many threads include half or more of their contents of people on both sides attacking the other or straight dismissing them. And this is what always happens with media like these. The fans often represent exactly what the medium is critiquing.

Just because you are a fan of the message, doesn't mean you aren't also a perpetrator of what it condemns. At least the detractors wear their bias on their sleeve (though they are still biased at the end of the day).

[Sid]

Except this medium does very bad job at said critique.

It feels like it was written by some few years old kid, who doesnt understand the world.

I also absolutely lowed how they tried to present our world as this homogenous utopia.

Tell that to kids from 3rd world who die for few cents in toxic wastes, so milionare from other side of the world can get richer.

[Gameplayer134]

Originally posted by Sid:

Except this medium does very bad job at said critique.

It feels like it was written by some few years old kid, who doesnt understand the world.

I also absolutely lowed how they tried to present our world as this homogenous utopia.

Tell that to kids from 3rd world who die for few cents in toxic wastes, so milionare from other side of the world can get richer.

Did we even play the same game? It's very clear that that's More's biased interpretation of the past and very clearly more so an idealized fantasy of it, rather than an actual accurate historical retelling. And the game acknowledges that such a utopia and making one isn't easy and very well can fall, as evident when they also acknowledge the past world fell in the apocalypse, or speculated how war brought the world to fall.

[Splinter of Chaos]

I don't actually think themes like tolerance or acceptance are interesting enough to build a game around. I think people are putting their own politics into the game and not really reading into what it's trying to say about these things, or rather why they're in the game.

There's this one line from an interview with Hashimoto that's stuck with me:

『不安＝つぎに進めるキッカケ』というテーマなら、 全世界の人にも理解してもらえる、 シンプルな話になると思ったんですよね。

In English... please no one nit-pick my translation skills...

"I thought that if "anxiety = a spark to continue to the next step" was the theme, that it'd be a simple story all the world's people could understand."

With this in mind, I feel the game is not advocating for tolerance and acceptance, it takes those as givens. What the game wants to talk about is how different people deal with anxieties about how the world is run, oppression of the weak or disadvantaged, etc., and how these feelings cause the change in the world we want to see.

Originally posted by Sid:

I also absolutely lowed how they tried to present our world as this homogenous utopia.

I'm not far enough in the game to know for sure, but I'm not entirely convinced that's the case. Another thing I noticed is that the world map in the game (1) looks nearly identical to "Utopia" of the book "Utopia" by Thomas More (2). In other words, the Utopia is possibly actually Metaphor's universe, or rather it's future. The book in the game might not so much be meant to describe our present, perfect world, but our ideals for how our world could be perfected. Possibly, for example, how our anxieties about the dissonance between how we want the world to be vs how it really is could motivate us to get up and change it.

(1) https://www.sakuraindex.jp/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/Metaphor-ReFantazio-New-Info-02.jpg
(2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopia_(book)#/media/File:Isola_di_Utopia_Moro.jpg

[Splinter of Chaos]

Originally posted by Gameplayer134:

It's very clear that that's More's biased interpretation of the past

Ah, is this something that is revealed later in the game?

[Clown Reemus]

After all, this is fiction and the notion of how much do such narratives in fiction unite humans is a long-time debate of philosophers, psychologists and art scientists.

But look at it from another angle - remember Disco Elysium? It received nothing but praise and occasional unauthentic debates with the aim to just create controversy didn't overshadow the common consensus on the utmost quality of the game. Here, however, besides the controversy-seeking individuals, there are two naturally formed camps that either criticise the game (in abundance), or praise it (blindly). This is a normal state of discussion for any given piece of media, normal as in is the norm, the statistically widespread process.

My point being - the game isn't that good, that impactful and touching that it would help unite us all. For example, in my case, I do not feel anyhow moved due to having seen way, way better attempts at these unity narratives from other games and in other media, both Japanese and otherwise. I authentically voice my concerns about the unrefined, trope-infused narrative of ReFantazio, which is just trying to spoon-feed us the ideas. Contrast it with something like Shingeki no Kyojin, which is an anti-war epic that NEVER just says "war is bad don't do war kids". This story, however, is very superficial in how it handles its in-universe issues, and you can call it preachy. This is not to say that the ideas are bad, but that there was very little effort in presenting them in a beautiful, thought-out, artistically stunning way. And the main problem is that, if the narrative is as superificial, it does, as you have noted, fail to really "sell" or impart those virtues, those higher ideas of unity, compassion, equality. Do not blame the player, blame the game. In this case, the developers.

[zero]

you seem to have forgotten basically the whole narrative stating not to humor bigots who would belittle others also lol

but knowing this topic isn't actually about the game: do remember that tolerance is a mutual agreement, the one who breaks it first is not the same as the one who is no longer under that agreement.

in other words: if you cant be civil, don't expect others to be civil to you, simple.

[Gameplayer134]

Originally posted by Splinter of Chaos:

I don't actually think themes like tolerance or acceptance are interesting enough to build a game around. I think people are putting their own politics into the game and not really reading into what it's trying to say about these things, or rather why they're in the game.

There's this one line from an interview with Hashimoto that's stuck with me:

『不安＝つぎに進めるキッカケ』というテーマなら、 全世界の人にも理解してもらえる、 シンプルな話になると思ったんですよね。

In English... please no one nit-pick my translation skills...

"I thought that if "anxiety = a spark to continue to the next step" was the theme, that it'd be a simple story all the world's people could understand."

With this in mind, I feel the game is not advocating for tolerance and acceptance, it takes those as givens. What the game wants to talk about is how different people deal with anxieties about how the world is run, oppression of the weak or disadvantaged, etc., and how these feelings cause the change in the world we want to see.

Originally posted by Sid:

I also absolutely lowed how they tried to present our world as this homogenous utopia.

I'm not far enough in the game to know for sure, but I'm not entirely convinced that's the case. Another thing I noticed is that the world map in the game (1) looks nearly identical to "Utopia" of the book "Utopia" by Thomas More (2). In other words, the Utopia is possibly actually Metaphor's universe, or rather it's future. The book in the game might not so much be meant to describe our present, perfect world, but our ideals for how our world could be perfected. Possibly, for example, how our anxieties about the dissonance between how we want the world to be vs how it really is could motivate us to get up and change it.

(1) https://www.sakuraindex.jp/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/Metaphor-ReFantazio-New-Info-02.jpg
(2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopia_(book)#/media/File:Isola_di_Utopia_Moro.jpg

(Spoiler warning obviously)
Another key theme of the game is the theme of hope and despair as despair is what is the key conflict and catalyst of how the late king and Louise turn out and their motives. Despair is what prevented the king from continuing his ideals and him doing so also led to Louise feeling betrayed by him and thinking that only power matters and people can't be trusted. And hope is what drives the protagonist and the party to continue despite the hardship and sets them apart from the king and Louise. It's what wakes up the protagonist and stops them from just accepting More's fake dream world. And to tie in with the fantasy book, hope is what drives the party to strive for a better world.

You also see themes of hope with other characters like with Heismay finding new purpose
after isolating himself in his cave from grieving his dead son or with Eupha finding a new way to protect her village besides thinking the only way is to sacrifice herself.

[Shodingus]

Originally posted by birthbysorrow:

The game's message seems to be to eradicate bias and embrace all. And yet many threads include half or more of their contents of people on both sides attacking the other or straight dismissing them. And this is what always happens with media like these. The fans often represent exactly what the medium is critiquing.

Just because you are a fan of the message, doesn't mean you aren't also a perpetrator of what it condemns. At least the detractors wear their bias on their sleeve (though they are still biased at the end of the day).

>game goes on and on about anxiety
>this take
At least try to read the text.