It is time to remove "woke" from the English language.

[Donut]

The true intended usage of "woke" when it comes to games is when some sort of political or social topic is put into a game in a way that is ham-fisted, such that it does not fit into the world or the narrative and comes off as the developer's personal bias being advertised in favor of making an actual good piece of media.

Now ask yourselves, how often do you see "woke" being used to refer to the above? Most common usages of the word I've seen:
- "This game has a black character"
- "This game lets you set pronouns"
- "This game lets you romance characters of the same sex/gender"
- "This game has a strong female character/protagonist"
- "This game's writing paints racism and discrimination in a bad light"

It's so rare that "woke" ever gets used to refer to something noticeably distracting and in-your-face. And people act like games never had any sort of message to say until recently. Games like FF Tactics would give modern gamers a heart attack.

This word has nearly lost all meaning. Seeing use of it unironically is almost always like tagging your words with a clown emoji. There are definitely games that have gone way too far in terms of preachiness and DEI checklists and suffered as a result, but they are not nearly as common as you would believe. Metaphor says "racism bad, fairness for everyone" but this isn't anything insanely radical. And the writing states clearly that it's not necessarily feasible or attainable, but rather a goal to work towards. It never felt out of place, it makes perfect sense that a world with 9 distinct tribes would go through such issues.

Edit: Made title slightly less offensive and clickbait-y.

[causality]

Nah, I don't care to be honest. Let idiots be idiots, it doesn't affect me.

[Donut]

Originally posted by causality:

Nah, I don't care to be honest. Let idiots be idiots, it doesn't affect me. :mtp_grius:

Honestly not a bad play. Some of this discourse is just absolutely wild to look at, haha

[AH-1 Cobra]

The game isn't woke because Neuras looks and sounds exactly like an Anglo-Saxon.

[Donut]

Originally posted by AH-1 Cobra:

The game isn't woke because Neuras looks and sounds exactly like an Anglo-Saxon.

Neuras spoilers

Game becomes woke again when Neuras advocates against the horrors of the atomic bomb

[Zevedeos]

I believe you are off the mark. At the very least partially. And here is why.

Quote:
"Now ask yourselves, how often do you see "woke" being used to refer to the above? Most common usages of the word I've seen:
- "This game has a black character"
- "This game lets you set pronouns"
- "This game lets you romance characters of the same sex/gender"
- "This game has a strong female character/protagonist"
- "This game's writing paints racism and discrimination in a bad light""

1)Did you see anyone saying "woke" about GTA San Adreas due to MC being black? I didn't. And if someone did, well let's not use exceptions/tinfoil hat people as examples to stigmatize people that are actually right/and or have a reason to be saying "woke".
For example in The Witcher tv series that turned a white character into a black one and generally casted wrong, the did say woke and were right(at least imo).

2)I would say that the game letting you set pronouns doesn't seem like an objectively woke thing but I can see how some people-subjectively can be see/feel/received it that way.

3)Same as above.

4)Depends on context. Lara Croft or 2B? I don't think anyone objected. She Hulk though...Another story. It was woke.

5)Again depends on implementation/application. Does it seem like the devs/story actually cares about it? Does it go deep into it or just shallow level? Additionally racism and/or discrimination is bad yes but will most likely never stop. At least not fully. And most likely believing that it can be fully stopped is naive/immature/idiotic.

The reason for that is that humans will always try to exploit and discriminate against differences they might have with others.

People will fight because of their location(north vs south) or resources, because of their different skin color. Different faith. Different political views/system. Different culture. Different sexual orientations. Different sex.

Any and all differences can cause people to clash and oppose. To judge and discriminate. They all do it.

Others and perhaps you too, also use some bad woke arguments or just because you disagree with their point of view to also judge and descriminate.

As the title of your OP says
"Normalize making fun of people who say "woke""

[Donut]

Originally posted by Zevedeos:

I believe you are off the mark. At the very least partially. And here is why.

Quote:
"Now ask yourselves, how often do you see "woke" being used to refer to the above? Most common usages of the word I've seen:
- "This game has a black character"
- "This game lets you set pronouns"
- "This game lets you romance characters of the same sex/gender"
- "This game has a strong female character/protagonist"
- "This game's writing paints racism and discrimination in a bad light""

1)Did you see anyone saying "woke" about GTA San Adreas due to MC being black? I didn't. And if someone did, well let's not use exceptions/tinfoil hat people as examples to stigmatize people that are actually right/and or have a reason to be saying "woke".
For example in The Witcher tv series that turned a white character into a black one and generally casted wrong, the did say woke and were right(at least imo).

2)I would say that the game letting you set pronouns doesn't seem like an objectively woke thing but I can see how some people-subjectively can be see/feel/received it that way.

3)Same as above.

4)Depends on context. Lara Croft or 2B? I don't think anyone objected. She Hulk though...Another story. It was woke.

5)Again depends on implementation/application. Does it seem like the devs/story actually cares about it? Does it go deep into it or just shallow level? Additionally racism and/or discrimination is bad yes but will most likely never stop. At least not fully. And most likely believing that it can be fully stopped is naive/immature/idiotic.

The reason for that is that humans will always try to exploit and discriminate against differences they might have with others.

People will fight because of their location(north vs south) or resources, because of their different skin color. Different faith. Different political views/system. Different culture. Different sexual orientations. Different sex.

Any and all differences can cause people to clash and oppose. To judge and discriminate. They all do it.

Others and perhaps you too, also use some bad woke arguments or just because you disagree with their point of view to also judge and descriminate.

As the title of your OP says
"Normalize making fun of people who say "woke""

You can't try to diss my post while simultaneously implying that a black casting can ruin a show due to wokeness, pronoun choice in a game is a big deal, female casting is only woke when the character isn't designed as gooner fuel, or that the presence of racism in the world means there's no point in discussing a world in which racism did not exist. We can agree to disagree. Other folks may have different definitions of what they consider woke, and I can't change their minds.

[Jouchebag]

Originally posted by Zevedeos:

1)Did you see anyone saying "woke" about GTA San Adreas due to MC being black? I didn't.

There was no anti-woke mob back then. The term was not used that way in 2004.

Also, there was PILES of HATEFUL RACISM directed toward CJ back then. Hate and intolerance are not new--but the term "woke" being used as a pejorative is less than 10 years old.

[Freya Crescent]

TL;DR but let's just normalize games being fun instead of making fun at players' expense.

[Donut]

Originally posted by Freya Crescent:

TL;DR but let's just normalize games being fun instead of making fun at players' expense.

I agree yes. Where do you fall regarding Metaphor? Do you think the discrimination theme takes away from the fun?

[Freya Crescent]

Originally posted by Donut:

Originally posted by Freya Crescent:

TL;DR but let's just normalize games being fun instead of making fun at players' expense.

I agree yes. Where do you fall regarding Metaphor? Do you think the discrimination theme takes away from the fun?

Nah, on the contrary I wish we saw more of the different tribes' cultures and individual traits so we could get a better grasp of why they all seem so divided. We know Clemar are in many positions of power because they are the largest population, with Rouissantes in 2nd population size, but their increased physical abilities also made sense (until they stopped talking about it midgame I guess...)

We never really see much Mustari culture outside of their religion (not much mention of why they wear the helmets, or why they seem to remove them among family/close friends but not in public, with some NPCs eating with the helm on). We only ever see one Nidia without their glamour (and it's OUR Nidia) and the only things we know about Paripus is 'they are mistreated, like 2nd class citizens' and 'they party to honour their dead instead of mourn when a loved one dies' ... but that 2nd point seems like the opposite in every scene, conversation or scenario outside the one time it's mentioned.

I like the characters, I just wish they felt more different when it's not immediately relevant to their specific Bond scene, and then promptly forgotten right away. One example is Heismay's necklace made of the tiny broken child bones of his son... which he says he'll never take off, but outside the singular scene the model for it is never seen in game again.

[Clown Reemus]

Originally posted by causality:

Nah, I don't care to be honest. Let idiots be idiots, it doesn't affect me. :mtp_grius:

It does affect us, these narratives are poisoning the industry and the game developers, directly or indirectly, react to their existence through their work. As an example, there is a niche of third-rate games that market themselves as "anti-woke" and "for real gamers". Once they enter the market, they affect both of us, and everyone else.

Neutrality is a fantasy for those fearing responsibility.

[Zevedeos]

"You can't try to diss my post while simultaneously implying that a black casting can ruin a show due to wokeness, pronoun choice in a game is a big deal, female casting is only woke when the character isn't hot"

I can, because I see a "trend" of people doing strawmans and taking out of context.

You did it again. I specifically mentioned The Witcher. Right? If I recall correctly they cast a black person as Triss Merigold. Triss was not a black person. She had red hair, green eyes and freckless(at least in the video game). She had a sort of Irish or Celtic appearance and the character/lore was written this way. Choosing to cast a black person and generally replacing white or whatever skin collored people with others in a pre existing setting/story in order to forcefully diversify it etc is woke.

You personally might not have an issue with a production casting an african american or asian person as Triss or Geralt of Rivia, but I do. I even had an issue with Henry being The Witcher because Geralt isn't some "pretty model boy". He is a rugged man. A veteran warrior. And due to the practices of the Witcher craft he is far from fair and flawless skinned etc.

Henry at least managed to pull off the personality, mannerisms/acting etc etc with his passion, work and effort. I was able to manage to accept him. He was mainly the reason The Witcher was also watchable. He carried it on his back. I don't know how the replacing actor will do but I am feeling like I will mostly like drop the series. Will see.

--

As for the pronoun. In similar manner if there are pre existing lore/books/characters, where the MC is binary and the game made for it prompts you to choose a pronoun and romance in a non binary way, then it's obviously a woke move/forcing the LGBT stuff.

--

There is no point in trying to combat racism because that's not the source of the problem. It's not the cause. It's the effect.

And correct me if I am wrong but to me it feels like hell will freeze sooner before the cause seizes to exist:

humans will always try to exploit and discriminate against differences they might have with others.

People will fight because of their location(north vs south) or resources, because of their different skin color. Different faith. Different political views/system. Different culture. Different sexual orientations. Different sex.

Any and all differences can cause people to clash and oppose. To judge and discriminate. They all do it.

And in fact you do it too as you try to rally people to make fun of others that say "woke".

[Donut]

Originally posted by Freya Crescent:

Originally posted by Donut:

I agree yes. Where do you fall regarding Metaphor? Do you think the discrimination theme takes away from the fun?

Nah, on the contrary I wish we saw more of the different tribes' cultures and individual traits so we could get a better grasp of why they all seem so divided. We know Clemar are in many positions of power because they are the largest population, with Rouissantes in 2nd population size, but their increased physical abilities also made sense (until they stopped talking about it midgame I guess...)

We never really see much Mustari culture outside of their religion (not much mention of why they wear the helmets, or why they seem to remove them among family/close friends but not in public, with some NPCs eating with the helm on). We only ever see one Nidia without their glamour (and it's OUR Nidia) and the only things we know about Paripus is 'they are mistreated, like 2nd class citizens' and 'they party to honour their dead instead of mourn when a loved one dies' ... but that 2nd point seems like the opposite in every scene, conversation or scenario outside the one time it's mentioned.

I like the characters, I just wish they felt more different when it's not immediately relevant to their specific Bond scene, and then promptly forgotten right away. One example is Heismay's necklace made of the tiny broken child bones of his son... which he says he'll never take off, but outside the singular scene the model for it is never seen in game again.

I sort of disagree with the Mustari because there's Mustari sympathizers in almost every major city + Etrian Odyssey Island is one of the longest parts of the game, but I agree we really don't learn all that much about the tribes despite the game being pretty long. I literally couldn't even recall any distinctive characteristics of the Rhoag. And even after looking it up, their main gimmick is just "dark-skinned".

[Zevedeos]

Originally posted by Jouchebag:

Originally posted by Zevedeos:

1)Did you see anyone saying "woke" about GTA San Adreas due to MC being black? I didn't.

There was no anti-woke mob back then. The term was not used that way in 2004.

Also, there was PILES of HATEFUL RACISM directed toward CJ back then. Hate and intolerance are not new--but the term "woke" being used as a pejorative is less than 10 years old.

I apologize. I was not aware of the piles of hateful racism towards CJ. All I experienced was a cool and popular game that me, my friends and others seemed to enjoy and have a lot of fun with. And the popular meme of "Ah shie, here we go again..."

That being said, I was referring to the remasters of the original game, which was done relatively recently. ~ I didn't see any woke arguments or racism, then again maybe because I didn't go searching/looking for discussions about the game. I don't know.

[Clown Reemus]

Originally posted by Donut:

Originally posted by Freya Crescent:

TL;DR but let's just normalize games being fun instead of making fun at players' expense.

I agree yes. Where do you fall regarding Metaphor? Do you think the discrimination theme takes away from the fun?

You didn't ask me but thank starts the forums are public.

Yes, it does. Because the theme of discrimination is everywhere, just like in real life, and there have been so many narratives done on and around discrimination in various media. At this point, you need to do it *DIFFERENTLY*. Atlus does it straightforwardly - nay, simply. Primitively, even. Instead of being high fantasy with deep worldbuilding, everything begins and ends with everyone disciminating against everyone. For quite superificial reasons. It's realistic. But... that's it. Where is the added value of the authors working on the story? There is none. Metaphor is a story about discrimination. Full stop.

Compare this to Detroit: Become Human. It's the same, but instead of fantasy it's sci-fi. What it does is shamelessly recreate the black emancipation narrative, but through androids. AI takes a place way way way back in the priorities of the story, as in the second half it goes full frontal on the emancipation narrative and doesn't even try to hide it. It copies history, at some moments.

So, is having those narratives bad? No. Is doing a freaking zero-point-zero extra effort to deliver your story about an overdone social critique bad? Absolutely. Metaphor is feebly balancing on the fence by trying to be a good story about discrimination. But it adds, practically, nothing to the discourse. It will be just one of many games about discrimination. People will forget it, unlike Persona, which they don't.

I fear that the plot here will be buried beneath a swathe of typical Japanese tropes, from which only a handful of talented writers diverge, in the industry. And then I will lose all interest, at one point in the story, just like I did with Detroit once it stopped trying to be a sci-fi.