What is the advantage of Atlantean counter units?

[Sensor Sweep]

I don't really play Atlanteans all that much so I don't know all the ins and outs, but when I do play them I never see much point in using the counter units.

-Murmillo seem superior to Katapeltes in almost every situation except mass calvalry horde. Kalas are more expensive, same armor, but less attack so less use against anying other than cavalry, but even then I'd think Murmillos would be more covenient due to their general use.

-Turma is the go-to for Classical Age, but beyond that I don't see a use for them besides villager picks. Contarius has better attack, fares better against archers, buildings, and cavalry, and has more minor god techs than the Turma (Contarius get both Secrets of Posiden and Stone Lance, Turma only get SoP).

-Arcus and Cheiroballista seem like the worst pairings. Cheiroballistas are slow, nearly twice as expensive as Arcus, have slow aim and fire rate, do not benefit from archer techs like Mail of Orichalkos, and worst of all can't become heroes, which makes them useless with hero-focused gods. Rheia, for instance, greatly favors the Arcus and heroes in general because none of her techs are applied to Cheiroballista despite them being archers (or are they siege? I don't know). Only thing I can think (and use) them with is for their small splash damage, but even then Arcus can fire arrows faster and snipe targets more effectively. Cheiroballista get Petrified, but that's incredibly situational at best.

-A little side-topic, but both Destroyers and Fire Siphons seem to "counter" buildings, but Destroyer seem more effective at it. They can be massed, hero'd, are cheaper, train faster, and have some anti-cavalry/infantry defense. All Fire Siphon seems to have is a small range and a Mythic god devoted to them.

I'm not saying any of those units suck (I use them all to make my armies diverse and tough to counter) but compared to their "general use" counterparts they just seem less useful even against their counters. Is there something I'm overlooking with them?

[PrinceGK]

I specialize in Atlantean myself so I hope I can shed a little light.
-Katalpeltes are 5 more food than Murmillo but have a greater bonus against calvary, as Murmillo are more well rounded and a small boost against Infantry. So if an Egyptian player spam Elephant Calvary, Katapeltes are most capable to take them out, better than Murmillo.
-Turmas are the Peltasts of the Atlantean Army, and did you know they have a bonus against Throwing Axemen? Turmas are an Anti-Archer with the ability to meet them on the ranged zone, so if your opponent sits behind their Toxotes and behind a wall, your Turmas are the one for the job. Plus, they'll get a free Medium Improvement Heroic Age.
-Cheiroballista is a SEIGE weapon that is highly effective against Infantry and Ships. And with it's large LOS it can take down large groups of Infantry with relative ease and make a good counter against Norsemen early game, espcially if you have walls. And in a Water game, they can help guard the coast when you don't have Towers avaiable.
-Contarius are actually, one of the worst calvary, in my opinion, in this game. They have a VERY weak armor and don't have the HP to make up for it, making it able for Archers to pick them off as well. Contarius are my typical Gaia strategy, but I just end up going for Fanatics late game and ditching the calvary.
-Destroyers are INFANTRY. They only attack with Hack damage with a bonus against building that is still just that. They have a high Pierce Armor, but watch out for the Hack Attacks with a bonus against Infantry, such as Fanatics, Throwing Axemen and even Fire Giants will tear it's HP down. Fire Siphons are Crush attack, and make it the most effective against buildings and ESPCIALLY walls. Though the Fire Siphon does begin to lose a lot of it's luster to the Destroyer for the reasons you've listed.

Rheia is NOT a Hero-favoring God. That would be Hyperion's area with his Mythic Rejuvination and Prometheus' support to reduce their cost. A little extra favor really favors Myth units and mythological researches. This makes Oranos the BEST Hero making Gods with his passive effect to increase the speed of human soliders, with Prometheus and Hyperion to back up his armies.

[Sensor Sweep]

Yeah thet helped me see some of the pros.

First though, when I said Rheia was hero-focused I meant that her techs could allow the mass-production of powerful Arcus heroes. But now that I think of it claiming she's focused on heroes was silly on my part. Favor trickle still helps.

Kalas countering elephants wasn't something I considered, and is a good point considering how powerful they are late-game.

I've never really had a problem with the Contarius except their cost, but I can see the benefit of Turma over them if they have such a wide range of units they counter. Being the only ranged cavalry archer counter would open up a lot of options, I imagine. I think I don't like to use them as much because I like food-based units more than wood/gold-based units. I'm a bad wood gatherer so I avoid wood units...

That's probably why I avoid Cheiroballista and Fire Siphons too. Lack of wood. But I do admit, both of those units are fun to play around with. Especially Fire Siphons with Helios.

One thing I hadn't considered about them is how diverse the army can get. Right out of Classic you can get nearly double the army composition of any other civ. Add in heroes and myth units and it'd be a powerful army that could conter anything. I don't knowif that happens in mid/high level play, but an army utilizing all available Atlantean units would be more interesting and difficult to counter than the typical Mercenary/Hersir/Hoplite rush.

[PrinceGK]

Atlanteans still recieve the short end of the stick though. High cost farms, Heroes costing 3x much and than that of a regular unit and than on top of that, only 3 units consume 1 Population. And their Citizens take up more space than a military in order to have an effective economy. When it comes to Atlateans, it's Quality over Quanity. At max Citizens, with no Heroic Citizens, you cna have 25 Citizens and that's 75 Population consumed by an economy. And I personally don't recommend Heroizing any as it only makes them 10% more economicly efficient and you really just paid to make 2 regular Citizens for 1 hero. And at max you can heroize 10 Citizens allowing 35 workers at 115 Population to run an Economy. And at the usual 160 Population limit (Max Manors and the usual 3 Settllements) that leaves enough room for 15 Fanatics...

I recommend DO gather wood. Because late game after purchasing all your upgrades, you want atleast 10 farmers and a good market trade and still gather wood because the Atlanteans emphasize their building usage (Oranos for Sky Passages, Kronos to Teleport, Gaia to keep her city in lush, or to build next to an unclaimed settlements so the enemy can't run up and take it under her Lush and ALL OF THEM to purchase Farms and build more Town Centers) If you're not gathering wood, it best be because you have none left to safetly obtain.

Atlanteans favor those who boom, as when you hold on to large stockpiles, you can afford upgrades, while taking in as much as you put out, leaving a lot of room for spending as you go into battle. And the major downside and Atllantean Minor Gods offer almost no real military benefits and NOTHING economicly. Okeanus supports 2 infantry who, late game should be nixxed in favor of Fanatics. Theia supports 'Cavlvary' but Atlateans only have 1 and it's very weak in defenses. As for Rhiea, her support for Hack Armor means very little when those Arcus and Turma's shouls be killing anything before it even get's close enough.

[Andrio Draco]

They are all kind of the same

[PrinceGK]

Originally posted by Diamante:

They are all kind of the same

That is so untrue. Atlanteans bring 8 Diverse Units into the fray that have unique roles for their units. Cheirioballista is an Age 2 Seige Unit, something no other culture contains, and this Siege unit can be upgraded unlike the rest and can mow down Ships and Infantry. Turma is an anti-Archer with the speed of calvary, who can harras a few villagers and zip out in safety. Katapeltes is an Age 2 unit who can stand up to the swarm of War Elephants with ease. They're mace weilders as they intend to pop some knee caps, human or beast. So if you're lacking the momentum, or you're in charge of Taking out the spamming Elephants on a team and you're not Age 4, Katapeltes are the ones for the job.

[Sensor Sweep]

My favored civs. are the Egyptian and Norse, with Atlantean my least favorite. I'm a pretty bad boomer and can't rush or take early settlements. But even with my inexperience I can't tell if Atlanteans are overpowered or underpowered. They've got the eco potential, the units, and the niches (Time Warp, Lush, Sky Passages), but their minor god techs are pretty bad and they have that afformentioned population problem that no other civ. seems to have. I don't think I've ever run into a population problem with Egyptians unless I was spamming elephants and siege.

Fanatics are great unit. Sometimes I play Atlantean just to use them. I also have to start using Cheiroballista for boat defense since I haven't done that before.

[PrinceGK]

It's a matter of persepective, Egyptians are the opposite of Alanteans. Cheaper but slow to build buildings, cheaper and faster to train but overall weaker military units. So maybe this is the reason Atlanteans don't work for you, also, if you're not a boomer or a rusher, this makes you a turtle (Someone who builds defenses early and holds them until they weaken the enemy efficienly)

[Sensor Sweep]

That's me. The Turtle. One of the lowliest forms of playstyle for strategy games. That's what turned me off with the Atlanteans, the high cost of counter-units that are only good in specific circumstances. Compared to the Egyptian's cheap, more general warriors combined with healing priests make the Egyptians really attractive over Atlanteans for me.

Even if I were decent with Atlantean I'd probably still favor Egypt because I just cannot stand Atalantean minor god selection. All Egyptian choices are golden in my opinion, both major and minor, but Atlantean... That's an entirely different discussion though.

Atlanteans also have the ugliest cities and least interesting mythology, though that's my personal preference.

[PrinceGK]

Ugly? I find the colors greatly enchance the Atlantean look. The white and blue gives a good reminder they're a water-based culture with the glided gold to show it's overall wealth. They are still apart of Greek mythology, and some of their mythology is just crafted for the game, not actual lore I'm afraid.

If you like, I can teach you in Atlantean Strategies as Defenses is my specialty. I'm a Turtle-Boomer, but I namely just play AI.

[Sensor Sweep]

Ugly in the sense that the cities always look so barren. Low villager count and spread out buildings make it look dull compared to Egyptian or Greek cities. Of course cities more than likely will be reduced to rubble during the span of a game, so... beautiful while it lasted.

Speaking of water-based, Atlanteans always disappointed me in the water department. For a water civ. they sure are sub-par compared to the Norse (three times the ship techs and Jormund Elver Brood) and Greek (more techs and Hera's crabs), and even Egyptian with the Leviathan. All Atlantean get are Servants, Nereids, and Man o' Wars, which are tied to gods with questionable use (Oceanus is OK, so's Helios because he has some water support). A shame.

I don't really play AoM all that much, but when I do Atlanteans tend to be the most annoying (even though I play against AI for fun), so occasional tips would be nice.