What to expect from Age of Mythology Retold?

[Thor II]

For start, it's pretty clear that it's the DE, there's no doubt about it, it's not a Remake, it's not an AOM II. It's a DE like AOE I, II and III. Retold was chosen because the name matches the theme.

Will we have new campaigns? Perhaps. As good as the originals? Most likely not. Campaigns united with each other like the originals? I doubt it, too. As bad as the Chinese campaign? No.

Yes, The Titans (Atlanteans + Titans) and Tales of Dragon (Chinese) will be available at launch, so it was with AOE I, II and III DLCs, there is no reason to be different with AOM. It is extremely unlikely that we will not have at least a new Mythology /3 Civ at launch, perhaps even more. Without the existing expansions and no new mythology at launch there will be less attraction to buy the game and many will be afraid of another failure like AOE I DE. It would be a huge marketing mistake.

For me, the basics that a DE should have, in addition to Graphics Improvements, Quality of Life improvements and constant balancing are DLCs with new Civs. In this case, probably a new Mythology with 3 Main Gods/Civs in each DLC, perhaps more Mythologies at launch.

I've seen people say that Mythology X or Y doesn't fit into AOM. Well, to become an AOM mythology you need major gods, minor/less important gods, heroes, monsters to serve as the basis for Mythological units, and a civ that has worshipped them to be the basis of most units and technologies.

If they told me for example, we'll release Lovecraft Mythology in AOM (I have no idea how the copyright is) I'd say it's impossible because no one actually worshiped these gods to serve as the basis for human units and technologies (actually that's basically what they did with the Atlanteans). But apart from cases like that, I'm just going to assume That I don't know enough about that mythology to say that it doesn't fit, there's not enough gods, enough monsters, heroes, etc.

This is a subject more difficult to know than the History of Empires that we use to propose Civs in AOE I, II and III , we must admit our lack of information here.

The time in which he lived the civ that adopted that Mythology/ Religion is also irrelevant, as has been proven even in the original AOM with Egyptians, Greeks and Norse being millennia away from each other. Not putting firearms and gunpowder in the middle and it's all right.

It is also worth remembering that many of the Mythologies I will mention have already been successfully explored in games like Smith (Moba dedicated exclusively to the fight between deities, heroes and monsters of different mythologies).

Possible new mythologies, most of them cooler than the Chinese.

- Celtic.
- Indian/Hindu.
- Japanese
- Inca.
- Aztec.
- Mayan.
- Slavic.
- Persian.
- Yoruba.
- Polynesia.
- Babylonian/ Mesopotamian.
- Rework of Chinese Mythology, An Externally Necessary Rework.

Strangest ideas:
- Tupi ???
- Voodo ???
- Zulu ???
- Cananée ???

It is worth remembering that Civs from new regions of the world demand new maps, with new trees, new animals, etc., which adds even more to the game.

Needless to say, a rework of terrible Chinese mythology is necessary. We should expect some changes too, the fixed place to build the Town Center for example may cease to exist, among others.

I believe that if we really have DLCs with new Mythologies/Civs, the biggest difficulty will be to find a unique and original way to receive Favor with each of them. Perhaps there is also a scarcity of original and nice divine powers and different ways of representing heroes.

[Laughing Dog]

I'd like to see the Celtic Pantheon. They might have some form of mechanic with herdables perhaps?

[Vin362]

At a minimum updated visuals and audio to help polish the game as it shows its age in certain places most noticeably with the Tale of the Dragon. Along with some balance changes.

One change I would want to see is to include more minor gods of the pantheon we have to see the age up system become something like AOE 3 where you get 5 options and each provide a bonus depending on which age you pick it. Outside of that it be interesting which pantheon gets included as I expect at least one DLC.

[KhanWolf95]

Honestly my gut feeling says that the safest take on a new Mythology culture to promote this game is to do the Aztecs or Babylon/Mesopotamia. But yeah I'm hoping this means that regardless it will get post dlc cultures going forward like AOE2 and AOE3 DE.

[Thor II]

It would be amazing if they made improvements to the ships. The worst part of the AOM is the strange and no personality ships of the Civs. Hammer Ship (Giant Hammer), Siege Ship (Giant Balista) and Normal Ship in a super simplistic system of stone, paper and scissors. I'm not asking for ramming or approaches and fighting on deck, anything less bizarre than hammer ship and a more dynamic system than the current stone, paper and treasure would be amazing.

[Boomy]

Lol, I just want a version of AoM that isn't drowning in bugs. Fix the pathfinding and I'm on board.

[Cyber]

no need more civs only greek,egy,norse,china

[Rhalius]

I think it's important to keep expectations realistic, we do have AOE 1, 2 and 3 DE to base our expectations on, combined with the knowledge that one AOM civ is more work than one AOE3 DE civ and a lot more work than a AOE2 DE civ.
They do however come in three variants.

So I think we can expect one new civ for Retold, that's the sensible expectation.
It would have three variants like the others, so would add quite a bit.
A second one would be great, but I think that would strongly depend on what other content they do for Retold.

A big graphical update and rebalancing is a given, even AOE1 received that. It's the bare minimum. It will likely be the most significant graphical update of all these games though, because AOM has those ugly early 3D graphics that mostly didn't age well.
Just look at the weird block heads of Egyptian spearmen.
This is also the only game with graphical armour and weapon upgrades so that is a bit of extra work too.
I'm hoping they will extend it to mythical upgrades too, giving that a new visual too perhaps, same for Thor's extra upgrades.

A new campaign is possible, but I figure they will have quite some work to do with the Chinese campaign to fix it.
Still, it could happen and I feel like they better go all in with it and not give us some short campaign. I'd want something as long as the Fall of the Trident campaign.
Since there's no historical scenarios like AOE3 has or home cities and shipments and all that, there might be more resources to focus on a new campaign instead.

The Fall of the Trident campaign also blows every AOE campaign out of the water, so I reckon they will focus a lot on making that a beautiful experience.
Would also be neat if they give us maybe 2 options of major gods in most levels, that would add replayability and would make sense in Egypt and Norway when you start with Greek heroes and some Hoplites.

Or maybe they want to add a new game mode, that's also possible but I doubt we would get both in the initial release.

Adding an additional major god and minor gods to existing civs is also an option, that's far less work for them but something we can get a lot of replayability out of.
Not all civs would need to have four major gods, they could always do more over time and make it the end goal to give a fourth option to all civs once support of the game is finished.

As for specific new civs, I think the key is there that the civ itself meets some criteria:
-Popularity.
-Having varied mythological creatures.
-How familiar the average person is with their mythological creatures.
-A varied force of human units that has infantry, cavalry and archers.
-Having a pantheon that's not of a major world religion, might not need to be gods though since that's not true for the Chinese.

Meso-American civs would not offer enough mythological creatures and they lack cavalry. AOM has a very simple and intuitive counter system. Giving Meso-American civs infantry units that function as cavalry would mess up that system since suddenly your hypaspists aren't effective against what is clearly melee infantry.
Also they are very disconnected from the rest of the world and would require very different maps to be added.

India's Hinduism is an active major world religion so best avoided to avoid controversy and India is too big to represent in one civ properly.

Celts would be my first pick for a new civ.
Their mythological creatures are very familiar and varied, they have plenty of options for unique human units too. Can do something special with druids too.
Makes the Norse a bit less isolated, bridging the gap a bit between them and the Greeks.

Persia or Babylon would probably be my second choice, also ties the whole region more together there, they have a very different army and also puts something a bit closer to China. Can only have Persia or Babylon though, not both since they'd be too similar.
There's also solid mythological options here though many are tied to the Greeks too. But it's possible.

And Japan would be my third choice.
Very familiar mythological creatures and units, Japan is always a popular choice. Makes China less isolated too.

Romans, maybe if they can work out the mythology in an interesting way. They have popularity and a great unique human army, but it would be a challenge to set their mythology apart.

But yeah, if it where up to me, Retold would launch with Celts and would add Persia or Babylon next as DLC, and later Japan as second DLC.

[Elhnada]

Originally posted by Rhalius:

Meso-American civs would not offer enough mythological creatures and they lack cavalry. AOM has a very simple and intuitive counter system. Giving Meso-American civs infantry units that function as cavalry would mess up that system since suddenly your hypaspists aren't effective against what is clearly melee infantry.
Also they are very disconnected from the rest of the world and would require very different maps to be added.

I disagree with your Mesoamerica stand. They would be my number one pick. Beside that point I completely agree with you on every point.

In defensive for Mesoamerica:
Their are enough of mythological or legendary creatures like the water beast Ahuizotl.
Also remember shapeshifting is an important part of the pre-Columbian world. So in theory every Mesoamerica animal could be a shaman Myth unit.
The lack of cavalry is no problem in the other AoE games, so I see no reason here it would be different.
New maps and biomes I see as a positive.
The Atlanteans got the Llama Caravan and architecture features similar to Incan architecture, so it is heavily implied that Atlanteans got contact with the New World.

Personal I prefer Aztec over Maya (or Olmecs).
With that I am aware that the only major flaw in my opinion is that the Aztec are very far away removed in time from Bronze Age Greek...
However if we skew the timeline I personal would not mind if it make sense for the campaign to reuse the Chinese story concept of AoE III [ageofempires.fandom.com] for the Aztec campaign final, after they founded Tenochtitlán (it is a stretch, I know).

[Rhalius]

The thing is, Age of Mythology has a way more intuitive and clear cut counter system than any of the Age of Empires games. I'd rather not see them mess up that system by throwing in exceptions to the rule.

In the other ones, it does not always make sense and especially AOE2 does have way less units in the game so it's easier to keep track of counters there because most factions train the exact same units.

Celts also have shape shifting, they can do something interesting with werewolves there. Same for other civs, it's not exclusive to meso-americans.

I just feel others would be more suitable choices because they have enough to offer in each category. Not having cavalry or much in the way of siege or ships is pretty significant.

It's why I'm unsure of Romans too. They have plenty of options to make their human units unique and could use officers or gladiators as heroes, but they lack myth units.

[Thor II]

Originally posted by Rhalius:

They have plenty of options to make their human units unique and could use officers or gladiators as heroes, but they lack myth units.

Serious? That's serious?.....

The theme of gladiators has already been explored to exhaustion, the entire Atlantean infantry is composed of gladiators, any more gladiator is more out of the question than making an Islamic civ with hero with the name of Muhammad.... In addition, the characteristic Roman unit, which has to be present in the game, is the Legionnaire, with its Lorica Segmentata, Scutum, Pilum and Gladio.

The only Roman legend I know of is the Aeneid, a work of fiction commissioned by Emperor Augustus for the poet Virgilio that tells the story of Aeneas, in the style of Greek heroes and legends, but I think the obvious choice for Roman heroes are the great generals of Roman history such as Scipion, Aetius, Mark Antony, Pompey. It makes a lot more sense.

My Solution to the gods of the Roman Pantheon, which incidentally is the most creative and original idea I've seen so far for this topic:

Originally posted by Thor II:

Romans Emperor: For Romans, they dead emperors are gods, so Romans Major Gods could be they Emperor (Julius Caesar, Octavio Augusto and a Third Emperor). But, MU will still be a problem.

Originally posted by Rhalius:

India's Hinduism is an active major world religion so best avoided to avoid controversy

I have said and I repeat, this is a problem of monotheistic religions, hindus have no problem with it. Several good games, quality games, cutting-edge games, have already portrayed Hindu religion and Hindu gods without any problem. The % of the Hindu population that would be against is very low compared to the Catholic, Jewish or Islamic that would be against, this is a totally unfounded fear. It's even prejudiced to sustain such a statement without proof.

Originally posted by Rhalius:

and India is too big to represent in one civ properly.

It is not the same case as the Indian Civ of AOE II, that civ represented all the Indian continent and all the civs, peoples and cultures of that continent, including 3 different religions (Hindus, Buddhists and Islamics).

This case is completely different, we are representing the Hindu religion, with its sacred books, gods, legends, myths, heroes and monsters (MU). The Hindu religion is only one, so a single civ is perfectly capable of representing it properly.

Originally posted by Rhalius:

Meso-American civs would not offer enough mythological creatures and they lack cavalry. AOM has a very simple and intuitive counter system. Giving Meso-American civs infantry units that function as cavalry would mess up that system since suddenly your hypaspists aren't effective against what is clearly melee infantry.
Also they are very disconnected from the rest of the world and would require very different maps to be added.

Did AOE II and AOE III succeed, without major difficulties, why couldn't AOM? I don't know about the MU, but that's certainly not reason enough not to have American civs.

Another problem, infinitely worse than this however, which can make the Devs prefer the Mayans, is that the Aztecs were extremely violent and their religion revolved completely around human sacrifice, in many different and very creative ways. It is impossible to portray aztec mythology without portraying sacrifices and cannibalism. Already with the Maya, it is much easier to hide the sacrifices (which were in much smaller numbers), with the Mayans also I know that with Popolvu and the descent of the twins into the world of the dead already shows many candidates for gods and MU. It seems to me a better option than the Aztecs in general.

[Rhalius]

Seems a safer bet to go with a faction that has plenty to offer across all fronts than one that would come up short and need all kinds of work arounds to try and make it work.

I'd rather see India than meso americans, if there's no religious problems I wouldn't mind seeing India. Wouldn't be my first pick but they could have an interesting human army as well as myth units.

While Meso Americans have interesting cultures, they make for a very boring option in this type of games if you aren't being grossly inaccurate with it like in AOE2 where they have galleons and siege equipment.
In AOE3 you just have ranged and melee infantry and that's it. And a navy that's way stronger than it should be since it's just canoes.

No ships, no siege, no cavalry. That's nearly half the combat options. Just leaves heroes, myth units, infantry and archers.

I still think Celts are one of the best options to go with.
Plenty of interesting things to do with druids, war wagons/chariots, varied infantry and archers and a lot of familiar myth units like werewolves, fairies, Leprechauns, banshees and the Balor could be a great summoned monster in the Mythic age or even titan. They have a lot, I'd probably focus them on Irish mythology, but Celts where a pretty diverse people so have a lot of options, some could be borrowed from other Celtish cultures if need be.

[Thor II]

Originally posted by Rhalius:

Seems a safer bet to go with a faction that has plenty to offer across all fronts than one that would come up short and need all kinds of work arounds to try and make it work.

Still, they insist on trying to find a solution for the Romans, who need "all kinds of work arounds to try and make it work", much, much more than the Aztecs. Problems with horses, siege and ships is light years away from having no gods and MU.

Originally posted by Rhalius:

I'd rather see India than meso americans, if there's no religious problems I wouldn't mind seeing India. Wouldn't be my first pick but they could have an interesting human army as well as myth units.

Believe me, it's not a problem at all. India is a very technological country, but it is rarely represented in technology. They'd love to see them represented.

You are confusing Hinduism with Christianity, Islam, Judaism and Native Americans. But they're not like that. And also forget that Japanese mythology = Shinto religion, so they are in the exact same situation as Hinduism, but no one speaks a word about it.... very, very strange.....

Everyone does everything they can to make Romans and Christians work, but they find Hindus and Meso Americans dangerous and difficult to make it work. It's like I'm living in a dystopia.

[Tanagram]

engine improvement is literally the most important thing. make it feel more reliable and responsive. just aom, but faster and cleaner than ever. let MODDERS go to town via steam workshop and in-game editor etc to produce new content. dont let that drown any developmental focus (dont add anything on release, just a stable new version of the good old stuff)

we need a 2020's AOM. I'd pay money for it. AOM:EE has had a great life, time to update modernize and make more money off of me. plus i know a lot of people IRL who would pay for AOM again if it was just something easy to pick up and start playing with none of the classic buginess and bad responsiveness that otherwise seems to be part of the deal...

[Thor II]

Originally posted by Tanagram:

let MODDERS go to town via steam workshop and in-game editor etc to produce new content.

There will be no Steam Workshop, that's a fact. Just like AOE II, III and IV there will be an integrated workshop within the game itself and the official website, so that those who are using the game on Steam and who are using in the Microsoft Store have access to the same Mods.

Originally posted by Tanagram:

(dont add anything on release, just a stable new version of the good old stuff)

AOE I DE and Warcraft 3 Reforged have tried to do what you are asking for and have failed miserably. AOE II and DE III have released a lot of stuff already on their release, including new Civs and were an absolute success. Needless to say which one is the safest and most advantageous launch model is not it?

[Rhalius]

AOE1 DE can't be compared to the trash heap that is Warcraft 3: Refunded.
It didn't take any chances, but it did deliver on what it promised and did not break the original version either.

Just a pity they used it kind of as just a stepping stone for AOE2 DE, an experimental project.
But it seems like with Return to Rome we might get a better upgrade than AOE1 DE could have been.