Shennong Guide

[Skidbladnir]

NOTE: someone please spread this to the other community sites I don't have accounts there and I would really like to get the word out. I hope this guide is helpful.

EDIT: I have responded to comments and added stuff. Still working on the strategies section of this guide. On another note, there are some cases where I have relented and changed my opinion in that, yes, I do agree that there are some nerfs should be made, but I would rather see other civs buffed than see China nerfed (For example Poseidon's hetaroi generally, or Hades' gastraphetes who are weak in comparison to their age, cost, efficacy, etc.). I don't think that everything about China needs to be nerfed, and there are even some things that need to be outright removed due to lack of use, or even buffed/changed (Qilin cost for example). But as long as there are Isis players out there, or Loki players, I'm sticking with Shennong and will abuse the crap out of my strategies to dominate the battlefield. I have succeeded with a "tier 3" (In their opinion) civilization and got called a lamer/OP civ abuser. There is just no convincing people that China is just a normal civilization with OP attributes like any other civilization.
------------------------------
Hello! I am writing this guide because my friend LNC_Goldenaxe inspired me with his Chinese rush guide and strategygamevideos youtube channel. I played Gaia in the past at a 2k+ level, Poseidon in my noob days, Ra in my just broke 1800 days, and I play Shennong exclusively now and I personally believe I am above 2100 rating. I have beaten 2.3ks+ multiple times and I've played for years so I'm not some Johnny-come-lately. This guide is not necessarily for newer players as the strategies can seriously wreck 1900+ people as long as you know the general ropes of how to play this game. However it should be useful to everyone else just the same. Also I wrote this guide to counter criticism against my playstyle, my civ, myself, and just put some players at ease. China is very powerful but I have been beaten many many many times so the civ isn't an I WIN button or anything. This guide is not 100% done and is missing some things like techs I did'nt really care to mention, so be wary of that. Anyway here we go!


Major God: Shennong (People thought he was weak when TOTD first game out...who's laughing now?)
Power: Timber Harvest- This is essentially Isis's prosperity, but boosts wood production. Excellent power.
Tech: Wheelbarrow- This is a 2nd husbandry essentially. Get it.

Bonuses:
1. The absolute best bonus by far is his siege bonus. His siege get a whopping X4 multiplier (X5 if you get the Scarab Pendant relic!!!) and splash damage (only vs units not buildings). Nuwa and Fuxi DO NOT HAVE THIS ability.
2. Wall upgrades cheaper- Excellent
3. Monks can convert myth units and heal faster- It takes 2X as long to convert a myth unit as a human unit. This is an excellent bonus.


Countering China (generally):
1. Spam buildings if you're Poseidon. Uproot will hurt the Chinese player.
2. Spam arrow units. Massed arrows is a big problem for China, even with Shennong fire lances as all Chinese units have terrible pierce armor. The only feasible counter China has vs massed arrows is massed arrows themselves (Chu ko nu), which isn't too effective.
3. Rush Shennong. Do not let Shennong get to Heroic. Hurt his food economy or gold mine. It's like beating any other civ. Also, I tend to lose games simply by being outboomed and then getting flooded by units. I can take out buildings quickly but not THAT quick.
4. Nuwa and Fuxi should probably be boomed against. They lack the ability to do serious damage to buildings early on anyway so their rushes are a bit overrated I believe. When I played Gaia this was my strategy to beat them (2 TC boom).
5. Pro tip: The most OP unit China has is Shennong's fire lance. IT IS NOT A ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ ARCHER SO STOP MAKING COUNTER ARCHERS to beat them. It is a siege weapon!!!!!
6. Cataphracts are not countered by infantry so stop making infantry to beat them.
7. Loki, Poseidon and Atlantis stand the best chance against Shennong. Isis, Ra, and Set...goodluck. I have been beaten by Isis with mercs and unit floods.
8. Leto's god power is really good at stopping a FH in its tracks.
9. Myth unit spam. Immortals suck too much to be an effective counter unless maybe they get demon slayer in anticipation of the spam.

Units:
Mounted archers- I make these because they cost wood and can be combo'd with CKN and fire lances to make a no food army. I don't actually think they are good. But they are qutie fas and really shine en masse, like anything else. Also, they are terrible in melee situations. They have a higher multiplier against cavalry than halberds, however are more expensive and just not as formidable.Do not fear these units unless there are many of them.

Immortals- You MUST have at least a few of these guys. They are like glass but they are unfortunately a necessity. They can only be trained out of the town center which is a problem, and they are limited in number by age unless you're Fuxi. They are expensive food wise and just not powerful enough, or spammable enough to take out any serious myth unit spam. A battle boar spam will give you a run for your money. If that happens, I hope you grabbed demon slayer.

Scout cavalry- Okay this unit is quite controversial. They are super weak but at the same time very powerful. Use them to raid, kill siege, fill an army if you have nothing else or you need to make a quick army at the 5 minute mark to "rush" and beat norse. They are 1 population only but if you are fighting these as a non Chinese player don't be too scared. They drop like flies and are TERRIBLE in most combat situations. Even if you greatly outnumber your enemy with these you could still get wiped. They have no multipliers except a x1.3 multiplier against villagers. They have really low armor and HP. Their attack isn't too bad though. Their greatest benefit is that they are fast as hell, especially with Great Journey....like SUPER fast. Spam this vs norse early on and raid like hell.

Halberds- Good unit! Although everyone compares it to the hoplite I will be using the murmillo as I am good with Gaia.

Unlike the murmillo, whose description states that it is anti-cavalry, this unit is actually anti cavalry because it has a multiplier vs them (x1.3). Let's look at a unit comparison:

Unit: Halberdier/ Murmillo
Cost: 70 resources/90 resources
Attack: 7/8
HP: 110/110
Hack armor: 35%/35%
Pierce armor: 15%/10%

So in conclusion, against infantry units, the halberdier has a lower attack and better defense, especially after upgrades (Sun Wukong), The murmillo has a higher attack, especially after upgrades (Oceanus), yet a lower defense. It is more expensive but that is cancelled out by the early economic power of Atlantis. So against infantry I would say they are equal, but when it comes to anti cavalry, the halberd acts as a katapeletes and murmillo combination just ripping through cavalry.

I think halberds, much like the murmillo, should be one's all purpose melee unit, especially when facing a Loki rush when you need something that can stand up to the hersirs (CKN won't cut it alone). Also, like other classical age units, they are good vs turma. Halberds are simply stronger than scout cavalry in every category with the exception of speed of course.

Chu ko nu- Ok I have revised this analysis over and over and this is it! This unit is not some elite killing machine. It is just a standard archer and here is the evidence taken from the data files:

Unit: CKN/ Toxote/ Hades Toxote
Cost: 100 resources/ 90 resources/ 90 resources
Attack: 4 X 2/ 6.5/ 7.15
HP: 60/ 60/ 60
Accuracy: 70%/ 80%/ 80%
Hack Armor: 15/ 15/ 15
Pierce Armor: 15/ 15/ 15
Range: 16/ 15/ 15

So from these statistics we can see that the toxote has an attack of 5.2 (6.5 x.70), the CKN has an attack of 5.6 (4 x 2 x ,70) and the Hades toxote has an attack of 5.72 (7.15 x .80). Therefore we can reasonably conclude that the Hades toxote is superior to the CKN in all except it has 1 less range. These differences only get larger as the game goes on and the Hades toxote just completely eclipses the CKN.

With that being said, in the early game, an unupgraded CKN is superior, although by a very slight margin, to the regular toxote, but this is understandable as it is more expensive.

Quick note, use the CKN as a counter archer. Fire lances are too fragile and too slow to train/shoot to be a cost effective counter archer in my opinion, AND they are trained in the 3rd age which is another limiting factor. Also, they do NOT kill buildings so whoever started that myth is just ridiculous.

Chariot- 3rd highest HP unit in the game after the general and war elephant with a high melee attack and excellent armor. They are 3 population while a war elephant is 5, They are however extremely expensive and trained in the castle AND unfortunately in age 4. I can't find a use of these guys mainly because I use the castles for other things, but I'm thinking they are a meat shield. Or perhaps, given their pierce armor and unit description, they are probably China's best bet against archers. China doesn't have to rely on CKN for anti archers anymore late game, and these things can swing around the enemy army quickly and efficiently and beat up the archers melee style without having to worry about getting rekked by the archers melee support.

Junk- It's a boat. Actually this is the only boat you'll be using as Shennong except for making some siege boats to take down a near-coast TC/tower or a dock that you are too impatient to kill with your junks. This is because these boats counter everything with Pillar of the Ocean (Sun Wukong).

Villager- From what I've read they have 5 percent slower gather rates than the Greek villagers and have slower attack speed. They also have significantly lesser multipliers against buildings and siege weapons as their Western counterparts. So the same gather rates are as follows:
Wood- 1.03
Gold- .86
Herdables- .68
Hunt- .68
Farming- .64

Fishing ship- It's a fishing ship nothing crazy here.

Garden- I use these to get favor. Nuwa and Fuxi people use these a lot I hear, but I can't argue the efficacy of that because I only play Shennong. They are not AS OP as people think due to slow gather rates, their initial cost and build time, and you can only get one resource at a time and it's likely you will be getting favor most of the time so you can build castles. Also they are very fragile. BUT I am not saying they are bad. They are great everyone wants a better economy of course. You can make a total of 10 which means 4.75 resources per second after 10 are built.

Gardens:
Gathers resources at .475s. This is means they are slower gatherers than a standard peasant.
Gathers favor at .0475/s.

I changed my mind about nerfing their collection rates because I had forgotten that Plenty vault gives a greater amount AND gives every resource at the same time. Even after god power boosts they still collect at a lesser rate and only one resource at a time.

Cataphracts- Use this against Egyptians that spam spearmen, and Norse stuck in the 2nd age. Fuxi has a WONDERFUL fast Heroic with these to kill Norse. When they say they are only good vs infantry, they aren't joking. These thing suck eggs vs anything not infantry so don't even think about it.

Sitting tiger- Slow and population heavy, yet extremely high attack and good range. They are better than an Egyptian catapult (Shennong only)..

Siege boat- Explained in the junk section

Fire ship- Not needed with Shennong.

General- Cool unit but expensive and can be easily focus fired. I don't use these but they have GREAT potential from what I've seen.

Monk- They are cool and seemingly OP but very expensive and fragile. I don't use these mainly because of the gold cost and I don't like micromanaging them. Good at base defense against say, destroyers, elephants, collossi, etc. Be warned, focusing only on making them too much can honestly lose you the game, especially early on when unit numbers matter more than quality/type usually.

Note: THEY DO NOT CONVERT SIEGE WEAPONS OR HEROES. This is one of a few good reasons why cheiroballistae are actually good vs China. Atlantis fares very well vs China in many ways.

I have done some very quick tests and found that using cavalry to counter them is your best bet unless they are surrounded by a meat shield. You need to be able to close the gap quickly and kill them before conversion. They cannot even stand up to an unupgraded toxote or hippikon 1v1 so that says something there. As for Fuxi/Nuwa players, their monks are going to be more powerful sans the myth/heal bonuses. I want to say this unit needs to be nerfed but every age game has had a conversion unit using the same mechanics. Perhaps allow all civilization to have a conversion unit (priest (Egypt)/preistess (Greece)/oracle (Atlantis)/Viking merchant (bribing units, Norse)/etc.)


Fire lance- So this is the big bad. The reason why everyone fears Shennong. A few notes:
1. Nuwa/Fuxi fire lances- These things are slightly less powerful than gastraphetes against buildings sans any upgrades, but much more cost effective and of course built in age 3. After full upgrades, gastraphetes are significantly more powerful..
2. They are not archers, so they should not be countered with slingers, peltasts, etc.
3. They are very vulnerable to melee, specifically cavalry, They have a minimum firing range and as much armor as a toxote/CKN (15 percent hack, 15 percent pierce).
4. Massed archers can kill them. They do not shoot as fast as a standard archers, they are only slightly less fragile than archers in terms of HP, they like many other Chinese units have poor pierce armor, they are more expensive than archers, and they can only be trained out of castles.
5. Only Shennong's fire lances have a 4X multiplier vs buildings.
6. Only Shennong's fire lances have a splash attack vs units.
7. They are hard-countered by villagers (non-Chinese), prodromos, spearmen, raiding cavalry, and katapeletes. They are soft countered by anything melee, specifically cavalry, and if you are desperate, massed archers.
8. If you are attacked by these units, be careful to kill the fire lances and not the meat shield guarding the fire lances.
9. If attacking with these get at least 5-6 fire lances.
10. When attacking fire lances, Put your units into a spread out/staggered formation in the advanced formation options to avoid splash damage as much as possible.
11. Get the Scarab Pendant relic for a X5 multiplier vs buildings with these.


I believe that although they are considered anti archer units, I think it is much like the Hades gastraphetes in that they were not intended to counter archers as their main profession. Gastraphetes are capable of killing infantry as per their description yet they are almost exclusively used to kill buildings. This is the same as the fire lance. It is Shennong's petrobolos.

It is a very powerful unit I will admit, but a civilization deserves to have at least one "OP" factor, and this particular unit has some glaring weaknesses as listed above and can be stopped. If you are one of those people saying this unit is too OP at least realize it's not "China," it's only Shennong. As for gastraphetes, they need to be buffed as opposed to fire lances being nerfed. They are way too expensive and only slightly strong than a Nuwa/Fuxi fire lance thus negating the reasoning behind its cost. Plus they are 4th age units.

A solution I have come up with for nerfing this unit might be to make it locked to a specific god. Perhaps one could worship an Age 3 god of technology (It is gunpowder after all) who would have a lesser god power but good bonuses and of course the ability to create these. If this happened I think the stats could be kept the same with less qualms. Also, please devs add a sound effect to these units. Use the sound effect from the Flying Crows from AOE3.

Gods:
Chang'e- Awesome goddess. Good techs all around. But a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ myth unit and I think this goddess, much like Anubis, attracts noobs because of the seemingly OP god power, which actually isn't that OP. In any case, I get her almost every game so I can defend myself a little bit more from a rush and get to Heroic.
Barrage- Use this power against archers only. If desperate it can also damage a building foundation, or can maybe wound infantry/cavalry, but if they move away even slightly you've just wasted this power. Do NOT use this against villagers as it's worthless.

Qilin- This myth unit is fast, has an okay attack, and can't be affected by bolt, frost, traitor, etc. It's special power of healing upon death is ♥♥♥♥. This unit is WAY too expensive. Oh, but it acts as a hero because of it's bonus against myth units. It can beat a sphinx but it's not going to do it as quickly as a real hero.

Sun Wukong- Get him on water maps 100%. Also get him for OP halberds if you're going that route.

Great Journey- This god power is better than one might think. You can speed up villager resource drop offs, come to the defense of an ally faster, raid EXTREMELY fast, get across a body of water faster to get that edge making first boats, you can **speed up caravans** DRAMATICALLY (This power is prosperity power version 2.0. Actually more powerful!), you can get around enemy melee units to rek their siege, or you can run away like a puss.

Monkey king- This thing sucks. Their stun ability is so cool, but the monkey just has too little HP to be useful.

Paper Talisman- This thing is great.

Pillar of the Ocean- On a water map this is a MUST HAVE bar none. You can take on siege boats with your junks in age 2. Combo this with armory upgrades and maybe heroic fleet and the enemy will be begging for mercy.

He bo- This god is interesting.

Geyser- Good for making a very temporary wall between you and your enemies if you need those extra seconds to get down a TC, plug up a pass while you nuke people with your ranged units and finish off melee with OP cataphracts, or for adding extra seconds to a raid before the murmillo come to rek your ♥♥♥♥♥♥ scout cavalry.

War salamander- Slow and overrrated. This thing USED TO BE overpowered. It was nerfed people let's get over it.

Rammed Earth- Yes

Sacrifices- I've never gotten this but I imagine it's great.

Zhong Kui (not kul!)- This is one of my favorite Chinese gods and the reason why everyone whines that I'm OP.

Uproot- Use this only against norse, egypt, and zeus.hades. DO NOT USE THIS AGAINST POSEIDON OR ATTY (worthless against atty). It sucks at taking out barracks, stables, armories, forts, etc. but is EPIC vs houses, temples apparently, storehouses, and towers, to the point that it can easily win you the game. Obviously use this DURING your attack. For extra effectiveness use this after you use Great Flood, but if you're that far in the game and still haven't used this power you're probably already outmatching the enemy. One last thing, the roots still damage buildings during ceasefire. Run to the center of the enemy base where he has his houses if he ceasefires. I've gotten on a few ban lists for this.

Jiangshi- This thing is EPIC. Regenerates HP by stealing HP from non- hero units. Very high HP and VERY VERY high attack. With the Life Drain tech even more OP. They can solo a collosus, minotaur, etc.


Demon Slayer- Get this if you're fighting whiny 2k Zeus players that spam collosi and myrmidons. Their collosi will be cut like butter. Demon Slayer grants immortals an extra multiplier vs myth units. It's an expensive tech however.

Unbridled Anger- It's good but I don't use infantry.

Ao Kuang- I am always tempted to get this guy because I like dragons and I like tsunamis. But if you're pro status I suggest going Xi Wangmu most of the time.

Great Flood- Use this against weaker buildings, farms, and buildings that are placed tightly together. Don't expect anything magical like with earthquake or meteor however. Combo it with uproot if you still have it for the greatest effect. The best part about this power is that it travels quite far so you can avoid power blockers like the Hesperides or Isis monuments.

Azure Dragon- This unit is very powerful, akin to a Chimera. Also it can travel on water, but it's too late game to be used effectively in most naval battles.

Dragon Turtle- This unit is worthless and should be removed from the game.

Nezha's Defeat- Get this if you're spamming dragons.

East Sea- I got this once...it was cool. Nothing to write home about.

Xi Wangmu- What the pros get

Earth Dragon- Not a very high attack but damn this god power is cool and VERY annoying for the enemy. Use this at a titan gate, to get that extra edge in a battle in back of the archers maybe or around the siege, or to prevent your enemy from constructing a TC that's 99% complete. It has MASSIVE hitpoints.

White Tiger- This is actually one of the most powerful MU's in the game and is very fast and has very high HP. Excellent raiders and just a great all around unit. However they are expensive.

All of her techs are A+.

Extra Note- For those of you who play Fuxi and Nuwa, Chongli's inferno is broken and does little to no damage. So although it looks very powerful it's actually worthless.
-----------------------------------------------
Okay so now the good part, strategies. I'm going to greatly expand on this later because I have to go to work but I want to give people a rough outline.

The strategies are:
1. Water- I don't do 1v1's on water usually so just use this strategy against every civ on team games that take place on water. Watch out for counter rushes by land obviously (Anatolia).
2. Rush
3. Fast Heroic
4. 2 TC boom

Land only counters:

If you are fighting _______ use _______:
Loki- Rush him and RAID HIM HEAVILY (esp food stores) with nothing but scout cavalry. Do not let him get to Heroic. Flaming weapons and BB's is more OP than China will ever be. You need immortals as well so food is very important here obviously. When you get to 3rd age make cataphracts and immortals.

Thor/Odin- In a team game I would FH and use a few scout cavalry to keep their potential rushes at bay. In a 1v1 I would rush with scout cavalry exclusively and halberds later to take out buildings. Remember to raid and remember that Ulfsark DO NOT ACTUALLY COUNTER CAVALRY. Maybe FH cataphract spam would work too, but that's more Fuxi style.

Isis/Ra/Set- 100X fast heroic every single time. Villager rush is your biggest threat honestly... If they are noob players make mounted archers to counter their camels that will try to kill your fire lances. If they are good players (like Orlo), they will make spearmen so make cataphracts alongside the fire lances. Don't forget immortals. You only need a few to wipe ancestors (May be better to just run though...but....meh), and you will definitely need them to counter rocs and petsuchos. Do not get rekked by a scarab rush keep your eyes open. Get the TC down before they merc spam. This is easy. Oh and cut his gold obviously.

And finally, to the players banning China, get a life. I have been beaten by people who know what they are doing and have learned to successfully counter Chinese units. Orlo, Rokrez (sp?), Goldenaxe, Amun Ra, etc. have all managed to wipe me.

EDIT: Okay so that fast heroic is good up until maybe 2k. I'm working on a solution to that.

[Skidbladnir]

Other Chinese: Fast heroic. Easy as pie. Be aggressive don't let them boom. Most China players are terribad.

Hades- Fast heroic

Zeus/Poseidon- Not experienced enough yet but just FH and protect yourself from a rush. Surround towers with 1 square walls, houses, get crenelations, etc. Your biggest threat is hippikon. If they ceasefire use uproot.

Kronos- Do the LNC_Goldenaxe rush. *listed as rush*
---turma- use halberds. cavalry are the same or a little worse, however cavalry gets killed easily by front line murmillae
---cheiroballista- use cavalry or focus fire your chu ko nu (cavalry are only slightly better, but they take food)
---murmillo- use halberds with optional chu ko nu as support (don't EVER let chu ko nu get into melee they suck). 1v1 murm will beat halberds
---katapeletes- use halberds with optional chu ko nu as support (don't EVER let chu ko nu get into melee they suck). 1v1 kata will NOT beat a halberd

Gaia/Oranos- Still working on a solution. I don't know why but I cannot beat them effectively. I will revise this guide when I have a solution.

resource guide (From what I've noticed in my games)-
1. food- you will need a lot of this. A LOT. It's a problem.
2. gold- you will not need as much gold as you think. 10 villagers on gold is good early, 16+ is good mid game.
3. wood- you will need a lot early, but not late. 16 villagers is good for most games. 20+ when you get crazy.

details (I will revise this later):

rush- I changed LNC_Goldenaxe's strat just a bit. I make 18 villagers all to hunt, no hunting dogs. Age up and go 6/6/6 and get hunting dogs and husbandry. Use Timber Harvest. When aged do your normal stuff like getting handaxe and all that and make 1 stable 2 barracks (when possible). 2 stables might be overkill but I've had success with 2 stables and 1 barracks. Against Kronos I recommend 1 stable only. The halberds will counter most of his army while the scout cav will merely die to them. Anyway, for more detail on this rush look at LNC's post from earlier this week.

FH- My number 1 strategy. I recommend doing this in team games mostly. Booming is boring and your rush will get rekked in team games by anybody over 1700. go 5 food, hunting dogs, 2 wood (storehouse), 2 gold (storehouse), rest to food at second hunt until you have 12 on food, the 6th food villager that comes out will make a house and then a garden and then go back to food, then you will get 5 on wood total and then 6 on gold total. make a temple with the wood people. age up with Chang'e and when aging get pickaxe. When aged use 5 wood villagers to make an armory and make a barracks/stable or get tower upgraded. use 1 gold person only to construct those lame walls around your towers and try to click the age up button at 6 minutes. Choose He bo against atty and Zhong Kui against everyone else (subject to change). When aging to 3rd keep 7 on wood, 6 on gold, and the rest on wood quickly, use timber harvest and then make a castle and spam fire lances. attack when you have enough. oh also make sure you have at least 1 stable. make mounted archers or cataphracts depending on who youre fighting.

Water- 3 to food, 1 makes dock then back to food, 1 to food, 2 to wood, 1 to gold (until 35 gold then go to food), 5 more to wood (7 total after this), then make the rest go to food until you have like 18 villagers. when aging put 7 on gold, use one to make a 2nd dock, use timber harvest, don't get housed, and pump out boats IMMEDIATELY upon aging. all new people go to wood and then gold. get that fishing upgrade, and get an armory ASAP. the most important thing you can do is get pillar of the ocean. Don't get rekked by zeus ships and don't ever get housed. the garden needs to be built as early as possible (hence that 1 gold guy) to get the favor for pillar of the ocean. DOn't neglect land and don't go too hard on sea.

2 TC boom- I have this written down on my comp somewhere I have to find it. This strategy worked pretty well vs Atty but I'm on the fence about it.

Ok so that's everything. Good luck and have fun!

[Hagrit]

Interesting guide, got a few things to mention.

Scout cavalry has 50% bonus vs villagers. not 1.3 aka 30%.

halberdiers have a noteworthy 30% bonus vs cavalry, no other basic infantry has this, only spearman have +10%.

Qilin isnt the only myth unit with bonus vs other myth units. every single myth unit has 50% or 100% bonus vs other myth units.

U should also mention that the earth dragon cant be hit by melee units, which is pretty broken imo.

Norse just gets screwed vs chinese here. yes loki ofcourse is still strong due to a good fw push but the chinese army comp just beats everything norse has to offer.

Are you sure about egypt being easy to deal with? i mean i dont have much experience in that matchup but i would assume outranging ra chariots would be able to keep fire lancers at bay, and no other units can really deal with chariot archers.

I think it would be nice to max out all ur gardens pretty soon. just to get that huge favor trickle to spam all these myth units like jiangshi. and ofcourse some upgrades that cost favor too.

Not gunna lie, i didnt realise chinese siege does 300% siege damage, i thought it was more along the lines of 50% or 100%. that sounds pretty insane.
does that count for sitting tigers too? cuz that would downright be brokenly op.

[Skidbladnir]

I just double checked AOM wiki and a pastebin on the data files. Scout cavalry do in fact have only a 1.3 multiplier. If that's incorrect sorry.

Good find on the halberdiers!

Qilin has a 200% bonus against MUs.

I tested Earth Dragon in the editor. It CAN be hit by melee. However I have seen what you're talking about and I think that might be a bug.

Norse is still very dangerous, but yeah they get messed up by that early cavalry. If you allow norse to build up though things could get hot. Nidhogg absolutely screws China IMO as its harder to maintain heroes and the heroes are just weaker.

I am absolutely sure about Egypt. I do not fear Egypt at all with Shennong. They just can't handle the fire lances and because they have a weak rush they are powerless to stop a fast Heroic. This is Shennong only not the other Chinese keep that in mind.

Gardens, you'd need to consult other China players.

Shennong has the X4 multiplier bonus not Chinese in general. Sitting tigers ARE also affected. I haven't done a test yet but I believe the fire lances are more effective because of reload and movement speed.

Extra note: Copper, Bronze, Iron, etc. weapons upgrades do not affect fire lances, but the armor upgrades do.

[DROLE-SAMA]

Thanks.

[LNC_GoldenAxe]

Nice post, I posted it at RTS Sanc as well.

[ZhouCong.Art]

Cool Guide! Thanks for the tips!!

Yeah, Shennong Fire Lance and Sitting Tiger have whopping x4.0 multiplier against building. Plus area damage of 3 and 4 meters radius respectively.

One thing to add: Prodromos, Raiding Cavalry, Katapeltes and Spearman have +100% to +150% bonus damage against Fire Lance. So those units could be hard counters. Chinese is the only civilization that dont have unit with bonus against Siege.

About those stats one can check the files "proto2.5.xml" and "techtree2.5.xml" inside the "...\Steam\steamapps\common\Age of Mythology\data\" folder.

As a 1650 Nüwa player I am always looking for new guides to improve. Still struggling to learn the basics, I am yet to find ways to counter:

• Siege Towers supported by 10+ CAs, Camels and Petsuchos.
  
• Gaia Tower Spam supported by Arcus, Contarius and Destroyers.
  
• Battle Boars, Giants, supported by Raiding Cavalry, Jarls and Huskarl.
  
• Petrobolos supported by archers en-masse and some Prodromos.
  
• Son of Osiris + CAs + Cavalry Mercenaries + Siege Towers.
  
• 5+ Fire Giants hurling fireballs from back protected by Bogsveigirs and Jarls on frontline.
  
• Colossus Spam with archers on the back.
  
• Arcus + Cheiroballista spam with Destroyers + Heka Gigantes on front.

In battle of attriction, halberdiers, cataphracts, Immortals are taken down before barely touching the enemy. Ranged units keeps shooting at wrong target so i had to keep micro-ing them, but that means less time to manage economy, idle villagers. In that kind of situation I find myself being pushed back and losing ground slowly but steadily. So eventually i run out of resources to continue producing the units and without idea how to turn the tide of game.

Also, I often find myself not producing a single myth unit during first 15 minutes of the game. All favor are spent on upgrades and Castles. Myth units are essential in the army because they act as tank and counters human units very well, not having them means opponent will have a lot easier time dealing with counters...

*Edit*
One thing to add, on most of my games against 1650. Barrage can take an entire classical army, if packed densely enough, Each volley of arrows does 70 hack damage so two volleys basically kills any human unit:
http://ageofempires.wikia.com/wiki/Barrage
By taking out the classical army that means victory hands down most of cases.

[Skidbladnir]

Originally posted by Militia:

One thing to add: Prodromos, Raiding Cavalry, Katapeltes and Spearman have +100% to +150% bonus damage against Fire Lance. So those units could be hard counters. Chinese is the only civilization that dont have unit with bonus against Siege.

Had no idea! I thought only villagers and cav had bonuses.

Originally posted by Militia:

In battle of attriction, halberdiers, cataphracts, Immortals are taken down before barely touching the enemy. Ranged units keeps shooting at wrong target so i had to keep micro-ing them, but that means less time to manage economy, idle villagers. In that kind of situation I find myself being pushed back and losing ground slowly but steadily. So eventually i run out of resources to continue producing the units and without idea how to turn the tide of game.

In this situation I would just get upgrades and tower/fortress spam. Get masons/architects and you'll be golden.

Originally posted by Militia:

One thing to add, on most of my games against 1650. Barrage can take an entire classical army, if packed densely enough, Each volley of arrows does 70 hack damage so two volleys basically kills any human unit:
http://ageofempires.wikia.com/wiki/Barrage
By taking out the classical army that means victory hands down most of cases.

I still think that there is a damage limit to barrage, and I believe that cav/inf just have slightly too much HP to be affected like archers. The arrows themselves are quite inaccurate as well.

[Hagrit]

Hmm scout cavalry is really 30% vs vills? i guess my enhanced tooltips mod is wrong for once then :p

Yea there are other myth units who have 200% bonus vs myth too.

Norse generally kinda struggles vs athena like army.
this gets even worse when the units are practically the same but train faster and chukonu have +1 range too.
and they both get affected by the same military upgrade aswell.

sure u dont have as much building kill pressure as zeus but that doesnt really matter since the victory condition is denying him his 2nd goldmine. (perhaps with barrage)

I would like to play some games vs you if you dont mind :P

[Loggy]

Not sure what version of tooltips you're running that's showing 30% vs scout cavalry - I know there are a fair few mistakes/omissions in the workshop one and should probably give DragonQ a poke about that at some point...

On barrage: the first three "waves" seem to always land on-target, and the last three go wherever they feel like going.

[Hagrit]

I just checked the protox file, and it is indeed 1.3 bonus vs villagers. so the tooltips mod was indeed wrong.

[[KeeN] Flame]

thing is uproot is broken, and needs to be drastically fixed and nerfed. insta killing all houses from someone's base in heroic(which you can get at 7-8 minutes) essentially a mini eartquake that actually has no counter, because the roots are too bugged out for people to attack them most of the time.

cho ko nu are too effective they're essentially fast cheirobalistas with half the cost of a cheirobalista. there's a reason cheiros are almost half a tc worth of resources, because shooting multiple arrows is a broken stat in aom, it mulitiplies the damage. just give a priest an extra projectile in editor. and you'll see that 3 damage can melt anything.

earth dragon cant be attacked by some units and is way too strong, you can insta win the game with just 2 charges(by placing them on each gold mine) its too effective, if ur macro is on the level of the enemy, the earth dragon will make the difference everytime, you have to be +100 points above someone to win vs this earth dragon.

fire lances are just straight up broken, I remember them being useless to buildings when mista was streaming, but they buffed it too hard. it can melt buildings down within seconds and is just a single unit 1/4th the cost of a catapult/siege tower.

scout cav is whatever it's counterable honestly(make 3 towers around each gold mine with crenelations), but it's NOT fun to play against, it just promotes heavy heavy walling and turtle based gameplay. the unit needs to be changed too, and is on the balance list for over a year now.
I personally would really hold back on playing china until they're finally fixed even thou you paid for it. China vs china is fine, but china vs other civs, it's like playing with +50 handicap once you get certain units, i dont really see the fun with it.

and it gives a lot of people delusional thoughts that they've become better and improved while in reality it's china opness that is carrying them.

i'd really say hold back on china until it's fixed whenever that might be, it's a bad dlc

-flame

[LNC_GoldenAxe]

About 4 weeks ago Flame said the Chinese were broken and I was like how? and he said they sucked. Then when I made a topic about my rush and he probably lost a few games to Lanilor, he completely changed his mind and said they were OP...So where are all the Chinese experts, why doesn't anyone win with them? btw, I won Adhfang chinese before they were nerfed.

Anyways imo this is a bad post by flame, he's just feeding the community crybabies, who suck with Chinese, who suck in general but doesn't want anyone else to play them as well, lol that's just nonsense. Everything on paper seems OP but why doesn't anyone try to prove all that in the game.


I played bignig13 and rushed him with Chinese, won him in like 6 mins. Then I rushed him with Kronos and won him in 4mins. He joined my game today and got upset that I was playing Chinese and left????? what kind of crap is that lol, I won him with loki and kronos much faster.


Now Lanilor was a great Gaia player, better than the avg EE 2k player and now when he switched to Shennong, what do you expect? he'll continue to win and I'm pretty sure he could win you with gaia as well. The other thing to point out is that Lanilor strategy doesn't always work on the original maps. The original maps requires a different build order and a different strategy on each map.


Edit: 2015 consist of the original ESO maps

[Skidbladnir]

I'll be editing this guide tonight after work and responding to some comments. I have some new developments regarding 2015 low hunt maps and Atty players lol. Apparently atty is the bane of Shennong more than I expected.

[[KeeN] Flame]

Originally posted by LNC_GoldenAxe:

About 4 weeks ago Flame said the Chinese were broken and I was like how? and he said they sucked. Then when I made a topic about my rush and he probably lost a few games to Lanilor, he completely changed his mind and said they were OP?!?!?. So where are all the Chinese experts, why doesn't anyone win with them? btw, I won Adhfang chinese before they were nerfed.

Anyways imo this is a bad post by flame, he's just feeding the community crybabies, who suck with Chinese, who suck in general but doesn't want anyone else to play them as well, what kind of nonsense is that? Everything on paper seems OP but why doesn't anyone try to prove all that in the game.


I played bignig13 and rushed him with Chinese, won him in like 6 mins. Then I rushed him with Kronos and won him in 4mins. He joined my game today and got upset that I was playing Chinese and left????? what kind of crap is this, I won him with loki and kronos much faster.


Now Lanilor was a great Gaia player, better than the avg EE 2k player and now when he switched to Shennong, what do you expect? he'll continue to win and I'm pretty sure he could win you with gaia as well. The other thing to point out is that Lanilor strategy doesn't always work on the original maps. The original maps requires a different build order and a different strategy on each map.

I said they sucked in the hands of 1700s and beginners because they still require a basic understanding of the game before you can actually abuse their overpowered units. But once you get to a certain level of 1750 you can abuse their OP units and win people 100 points higher than yourself. obviously he plays gaia, because gaia has always been an easy god to play, but now with the buffs to gaia people finally start realizing she's overpowered in teamgames.

Your rush is fine goldenaxe even thou it abuses cho ko nu that beat horses when massed up and destroy towers within seconds (???) . Want to know why its fine? because no matter with which civ you rush it's easy to beat cause it's you, goldenaxe.

but I understand bignig's concern, when losing to a loki or kronos rush you know you could have countered it and won and fix some mistakes and do better next game. but against china you need to play 1. perfect 2. hope for the enemy to make mistakes. thats your only way to win against china. And yeah most china make a lot of mistakes so its whatever, let them play china in teamgames(like you goldenaxe)

and let me put some real talk in here too
you know you cant macro for ♥♥♥♥, hence you playing kronos and loki every game, same goes for people maining china, like oh ♥♥♥♥ i suck at norse, greek and egypt, but wait theres atlantean, im getting better now, and then they find china, and are like oh damn im getting really good now at this game, but wait why are these people crying about china? pff after all these games i just got better and they suck. China is fair kiddo.

thats the general thought process of china players, but here's the catch let them play norse or greek or egypt, they are back to being 1650. Because they've actually not been getting better and improving at the game, they've just been abusing some overpowered kill all unit. they base their entire strategy to survive until a point where they can spam monks, fire lances or cho ko nu. with absolutely horrible macro, 1 tc for 20 minutes. it's just abusing no skill involved other than surviving to that point. Its the wrong way of improving. ya china players playing the guitar the wrong way, you are using it to play baseball while its meant for making music

I really wanted to make a video about your rush too goldenaxe but I thought to myself do we want to see people doing this all over EE?
I wanted to make a lot of chinese content when I heard of them making a dlc, but it's not fun to be making videos about overpowered and abuseable units, no point making strategies for china because when it gets finally balanced and fixed the strategy wont work anymore.
Every game i'd upload about china vs other civs is just china winning by abusing overpowered units.
i want to make videos when they're actually balanced and we can really start making up strategies, right now its just a big mess still after one year cause the devs left us in the dust.

[LNC_GoldenAxe]

Lanilor was never a bad player, I said he was a good gaia player, hence he's also a good Chinese player.
me_supa_fly was a med lvl random civ player and he's also a med lvl random Chinese player.
TheLastBonquiqui sucked with all and he still sucks with the Chinese.
Lia, just never wins with the Chinese. Orlo's Ra and Possy are better than his Chinese. So where are all the unbeatable Chinese players.

Magic vs Sensuy, when they first released the DLC, Sensuy's set would win Magic's Chinese. Now that they've been nerfed, who do you think will win? The Chinese will have no chance... basically the fact's don't support your position.

We really need to put this myth to rest, maybe we should have a match =), 3 Chinese players (Lia, Flame and Lanilor) vs LNC, using the original ESO maps Bo3?


Edit:
The other think I noticed about Shennong is that he's really weak vs myth units, I played a game vs Rich today and after he took out my TC with myth units, I couldn't make heroes to fight them off. Because monk's were trying to convert them instead of attacking them.