Unlocking things is bad strategy?

[GeorgeRRMartinLutherBurgerKingJr]

Kind of weird balance issue, unlocking new things just dilutes the pool of already working items and strategies. Unless I missed a way to pick and choose what items are available, it seems like I'm best off not unlocking any more things than I had once realizing the problem.

[Tzenesh]

I'm not sure if you could beat ++ without unlocking some of the items. The ignoring the unlock part of the game may work for the easier difficulties though.

[Roshta]

definitely makes it less complex, there are a lot of reroll trigger draft generation mechanics with some later boons/triggers, so I guess that helps. I definitely could not resist using those tempting unlocks

[mariomario42]

I've been trying some ++ on pyramid after unlocking most things, I swear some runs are impossible to get past the first tribute. So many multipliers and the effects that only interact with other triggers, nothing generates money. Either you get lucky with the options, or what, immediately wasting all your rerolls towards getting a single trigger that lets you get $2000 over several drops? That's not fun.

Rather than unlocking things that immediately go into the pool of triggers, I'd much rather prefer progress towards a set (money set, plant set, food set, etc) that becomes an option when fully collected. Each game then should rather focus on some # of sets per game rather than the cluster of triggers that don't match up. I love things interacting in interesting ways, but there's no boundaries.

That, or levels need to be reworks to get you some "basic" triggers to start with to remove the scramble of early game luck

[b00marrows]

Its a common and repeated issue with games of this genera, hitting a majority if not all rogue like games to some degree.

It is an undeniable fact that unlocks will and always have diluted the pool of possibility/options. Functionally getting in the way of "what could have been" just by existing and getting in the way.

The impact of this fact can be made worse by how mechanics of the game work like how some items just wont work with some characters/classes/builds/setups.

Some games alleviate the issue by allowing more rolls/options as you progress with upgrades themselves. Most dont.

This game seems to have that issue, to what degree i don't know yet.
I have found myself struggling more to build any efficient boards as the game progresses and i unlock more "fluff".

[Woody]

After playing the game more I can now confidently say that I am not impressed with the item bloat. I love the choices, but there are so many combos that just do not work at all and filling your board with them randomly adds near zero value to your rounds. I do not like the game-play of just mashing reroll until I get something of some value.

The game feels like you are experiencing "feast-or-famine". You either get some synergies that are so over-tuned you are able to easily carry most runs, or you get a random assortment of garbage and lose.

I actually really like the game overall, but I can't recommend this to anyone because I feel that the developers really missed on a key component of rogue-lite design. There is no agency when it comes to your builds or items choices, just reroll. There has also been no response from the devs on what they plan to do (if anything) about this choice.

[fheadx]

I'd like some type of ban feature on draws as a reward, for post game shenanigans. With experience, I've learned to break the game with a full draw pool. I suggest the hoarder starter set, it's much easier to score early with the closet and you can be more selective with how you set up the board.

[matheod]

Usually game give you the ability to ban item, the number of ban increasing with the number of unlocked item. The ban could be either before game on when item drafter (i find the last option funnier).

[Acherow]

Originally posted by matheod:

Usually game give you the ability to ban item, the number of ban increasing with the number of unlocked item. The ban could be either before game on when item drafter (i find the last option funnier).

this is not in fact a usual feature of the genre and would likely bloat the game unnecessarily. out of curiosity, what games do you have in mind that do this? auto battlers?

[Sundowning, even in Arcadia.]

Originally posted by Acherow:

Originally posted by matheod:

Usually game give you the ability to ban item, the number of ban increasing with the number of unlocked item. The ban could be either before game on when item drafter (i find the last option funnier).

this is not in fact a usual feature of the genre and would likely bloat the game unnecessarily. out of curiosity, what games do you have in mind that do this? auto battlers?

How does a limiter generate bloat? Makes no sense. It's the exact opposite.

[Acherow]

Originally posted by Sundowning.:

How does a limiter generate bloat? Makes no sense. It's the exact opposite.

it adds overhead for the player to think about. The game is already dense with mechanics both pre-game and mid-game, what with starter pack choices, map choices, rerolls and removes, etc. Adding yet another thing for the player to track would easily exhaust most players, and its not even something worth the complication- bans are anti-ethical to the concept of a roguelike where you're meant to adapt to the options you're given.

[b00marrows]

Originally posted by Acherow:

Originally posted by Sundowning.:

How does a limiter generate bloat? Makes no sense. It's the exact opposite.

it adds overhead for the player to think about. The game is already dense with mechanics both pre-game and mid-game, what with starter pack choices, map choices, rerolls and removes, etc. Adding yet another thing for the player to track would easily exhaust most players, and its not even something worth the complication- bans are anti-ethical to the concept of a roguelike where you're meant to adapt to the options you're given.

This is about as nonsensical as i could have expected, but i didn't expect someone to actually say it.

By your own logic, both re-rolls and unlocking thing to begin with are "overhead".

A single additional feature, introduced as your progress into a point of item pool bloat is nothing heavy to think about.

[Acherow]

Originally posted by b00marrows:

This is about as nonsensical as i could have expected, but i didn't expect someone to actually say it.

By your own logic, both re-rolls and unlocking thing to begin with are "overhead".

A single additional feature, introduced as your progress into a point of item pool bloat is nothing heavy to think about.

yeah refer back to my original comment about people who only play games discussing game design. It`s an inherently different public that doesn`t think about the same things you have to in order to design. Mind you, I`m not saying I`m adept at it either! All I`m saying is this kind of topic has a lot more depth than people give it credit for, even for something as seemingly inconsequential as this.

[Ally]

There's a bunch of balance issues.

Every single level can be beaten with the cabinet and just shoving everything in the cabinet. There are set ups to create almost infinite loops gaining millions of points per turn. Unlocking things absolutely ruins your run, that's a huge oversight and really hard to balance without some form of "drafting" system being added.

However, I don't think its that kinda game tbh, its about just getting cool combos and silly scores. I enjoyed my time with it.

[matheod]

Vampire survivor do this for example. Ballionnaire will probably add more items with update and/or DLC, so after a while there will be a need to avoid issue with a too large pool of item.

[Sundowning, even in Arcadia.]

Originally posted by Acherow:

Originally posted by Sundowning.:

How does a limiter generate bloat? Makes no sense. It's the exact opposite.

it adds overhead for the player to think about. The game is already dense with mechanics both pre-game and mid-game, what with starter pack choices, map choices, rerolls and removes, etc. Adding yet another thing for the player to track would easily exhaust most players, and its not even something worth the complication- bans are anti-ethical to the concept of a roguelike where you're meant to adapt to the options you're given.

How can you speak for "most" players?

You're speaking for yourself, no matter how many people you want to put in the same bag. There are of course, people that will think like you do because such is the nature of humans, to differ.

But don't estimate out of your own common sense. There are varied explanations on this thread on how to implement such options in different ways.

Besides, you're speaking of players as if they have IQ 20 and can't handle pressing two buttons on the main menu. With the depth this game has, a simple meta resource to unlock bans outside matches, I personally believe the playerbase will handle it just fine. And if they don't like them, for some reason, guess what: they can just ignore them. Crazy concept, I know.

If anything, one does not require deep knowledge in advanced calculus to play vampire survivors and manage bans, banishes, rerolls, and everything the game throws at you - right?