So I finally beat the game... (Spoilers)

[Codo]

I gotta admit, the game was great, start to JUST BEFORE the finish...

But that final boss.

For the most part? It was okay. I could deal with it. I repeatedly hammered away at this fight, but kept getting rebuffed not by the first half of it, but always, ALWAYS, at the 3 plague cards. The king, queen, and Jack of plague as a team is just... Unbelievable. I actually found this to be the only un-fun section of the game. Because the three Dust cards? You can use the King's ability to bombard both the turret the queen sets up, and themselves. There's a trick to that. That's good. The rest comes from blocking and dodging.

Then you got the three bone cards. You can use the king to annihalate the other cards with his shield beam, and do your best to break the reviving totem. Once again? I felt there was skill and a bit of planning that could be used to beat this fight.

After the plague, you fight the scales. This one I actually found REALLY fun, because now you HAVE to fight the king first. It's hard, it's challenging, but it was fair, and I loved it.

I am not complaining about this to make the fight easier...

But having 2 melee fighters who have NO blockable attacks, and two distance attackers, one who brings you up for the ONLY blockable attack (Which is often nullified by her fledgelings attacking for her right after to keep you off her), and a plant that keeps pecking away at you?

There is no gimmick to that fight, there is no 'challenge'... It is literally 'hunt and peck for the next 20 minutes, or die trying'.

I even had the Undead King's Sword, and was slicing folks up left and right, and while I was losing health decently enough to induce panic here and there, it was only the Plagues that actually, genuinely did not feel FUN. And honestly? The only reason is just because the two of them have those unblockable attacks, that they keep chaining together. Both get that red mark, and then you have to wait out 7 full attacks that cannot be interrupted (Or at least seem to), and somehow, when I got hit by even one hit, I was unable to dodge during that time at all, and just had to sit there and take it.

Considering this fight comes at the end of an entire dungeon of things taking away my max health, and what... 7 curses or so due to the Dealer's curse at the beginning? It already was a challenge as it stood. And again, even WITH all that difficulty, every other fight was both challenging, yet fun... But that bit with the rats? I really didn't feel anything fun about it. No amount of cunning or brute force could help that one. It was just a long, drawn out, hunt and peck... (I even had the Time Heals card, and it took TWO USES of it to get through there, and even then, barely, with 10 health... Which the scales then took not too much long after.)

I am not saying to change too much about the fight... Especially since I think changing them would change their own specific encounter in their own dungeon?

But please think about somehow making that fight a little less aggrivating... Make one of their chains interruptable, or less health on them, or something...

Other than that though, as I've said repeatedly, the ENTIRE REST of the boss fight was fun. A little recommendation though, during the dealer's first and second attacks? There wasn't much skill in evading those... Maybe make his attacks change from time to time instead of being one non-changing sequence? Or maybe make the first attack quicker, and the second attack shoot out at angles? Juuuuust seemed a little too easy fighting the dealer himself. But overall? Great fight, felt epic... Just those freakin' rats. After 7 times of running through that single dungeon, to be stopped by those rats every time, even when I was at my best... Not fun. :(

...Still buying this on mah Vita moment it comes out. Hyyyyyype.

[Codo]

Oh, and the ending felt a bit... Too open. Maybe you're solving that with DLC, like "What happens now?" but uh... Just having him fly off in a black hole and then the game acting like it never happened felt... Icky. No new cards? No final scene? Just... "Waaaagh!" and then curtains? Not much is really needed, just a "Hm? You look like you've seen a ghost... Perhaps you require a respite?" from the cheeky dealer, or maybe gain a single card relaying to you a new Artifact "Dealer's Luck" where it does something like... I'unno, completely changes your item set, giving you a dealer's gamble? Doesn't make things easier, doesn't make them harder, just gives a chance. I'unno, this is just random stuff off my head. But the big thing is, is just hopefully SOMETHING after you beat the game once, some form of indicator of all that struggle, ya know?

[Kamamura]

I, for one, do not feel that the ending was missing something. After all, there was no story over-reach in the prologue - your character has no background, no past, no defining characteristics. There is only you, your opponent, and the Game. The rest is left to your fantasy - and I actually like that.

Do you remember the film called "The Cube", it's some 10, 15 years old about people trapped in a huge, deadly, maze-like cube? It was perfect, but the sequels and prequels that tried to explain the logic and reasons actually killed the whole magic.

As for the game, it starts very strong, but the finale fight is horrible. Boss fights are a consolistic disease, and piled bossfights are an absolure horror. It was a test of endurance above everything. Reading the original poster's complains, you depend on the blocking too much. I played the 1.0 version of the game where blocking against an opponent with shield actually made you lose the combo chain, and I almost never blocked, it was very situational. My go-to, safe, automatic defense was that overused roll.

I also did not have that much problems with the plague trio, but the scales were absolutely horrible, the fight took ages and ages.

[Codo]

I can agree with you that the game needs very little, but I cannot agree with you on it being perfect as it is... Again, I do not ask for EXPLANATION... I just ask for a line. Something. Anything to just say "Here is what all that struggle was for." A single new card, or anything as simple as him saying "What? Is something wrong?". There is no need for explanation, as you said... But a single line is all it takes to make it feel a bit better.

As for bosses, I DEFINITELY cannot agree with you on there. I've loved bosses in games, simply for a number of reasons. For one, think of what a boss IS... A challenge, yes? I do believe the bosses in this game could use more moves, to be unpredictable in action, but yes. In games, bosses are meant to be tests of skill, a way of saying "Can you handle this?". They are by NO means a disease, and even this was not, as you said, an absolute horror. They piled these specific bosses together in their suites, and together, they have a fun synergy, that tests both your skill and cunning. As I stated for the first two and the last of these gauntlets, they have certain ways you can go about it, that both eases your pain, tests your ability to dodge in time, and when to decide your blows... My second reason, is that bosses in games are also cinematic. Like a treat...

I view bosses much like a desert after dinner. Bosses in games tend to always have not just a trick to them, but you must still challenge yourself to avoid their attacks, and choose when it is best to draw the line, and go on the offensive. In a single player game, this is especially essential, because having NO challenging bosses would make it so that it's nothing but a slog through a bunch of the same enemies. Bosses are as much a treat for the eyes as they are a treat for difficulty. They change up the pace, they give you a new enemy to look at rather then the relentless horde... I cannot describe to you how wrong it is to get rid of 'boss fights' in gaming, because you aren't the first that has argued against it.

But seriously, screw those rats. Argh.

Anywho, Cube was nice, but like ya said, I ain't happy they tried to explain things away. T'was a silly endeavor. Anywho, hope to hear from Morgan on this a bit, if I can get his take on it. Again, maybe it's just me, but those rats were relentless, and I saw no real 'openings' like any of the others, and that is what gets to me...

[Kamamura]

I could agree with you, if bossfights were actually tests of skill. This short clip from the Akira Kurosawa movie 7 samurai summarize what I would see as an acceptable bossfight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ESfN3lUNRM

However, most bossfights in console games are repetitive hacking at something that has hundreds and thousands of "hitpoints", so it's a test of endurance, pattern recognition and mouse-like reflex training. As such, I hate them.

On Hands of Fate, I like everything but the bossfight.

A challenging enemy should not be a moronic heap of hitpoints.

[Thalfon]

The constantly returning bosses and the last two maps in this game are really a pain. It's not fun when I might have to fight two 2 of Dust for a token, but most of the time end up having to fight two face cards instead. It doesn't feel like skill, it feels like you just have to keep trying until you luck into a reasonable match. And even if you do fight and win against the bosses (often coming in pairs), it's usually just loads of dodge rolling and trying to sneak hits in.

The curse stacking in the last two levels is even worse though. It basically becomes a "Do you have Sweetwoods" check. If you draw it early, then you clear the curses and it becomes a normal and reasonably fun game again. Otherwise it deteriorates into a tedious experience of drawing -maxhp after -maxhp and having to put up with obnoxious curses. Also, the King of Scales fight not mentioning the invulnerability buff he gives his minions was right nasty. I had about a ten minute fight with him before losing, and I was a bit salty when I looked it up and found that out.

[Codo]

What's funny is I still have yet to get that card. I know of it's existance, as a friend of mine keeps resetting until she gets it first few cards, but I still need to get it myself...

Anywho, I will concede that this game's boss fights aren't QUITE full-on huge bosses, but honestly, I do like them as they are. Mainly because the point of them IS to finish you off. They are given the challenge by your own curses and worn-ragged form by the dungeon. This is why there's no "Boss Rush" mode, because a simple fight where you got all the basic gear against the bosses would just be... Well, like killing an extra strong enemy. Nothing really huge there. But the point is that the fights are made more difficult in this game BY the curses, and by the dungeons, which is when the strongest enemy around is meant to deal a finishing blow, or you fend them off proper. Each boss individually is just an extra-strength enemy, but when in a group, and with your own faults and whatnot? Makes for the challenge OF Hand of Fate. So these...

Ya can't really call them boss fights. Just extra challenging fights. So it's a bit of a misnomer. The only real boss is the Dealer, which again, I liked. But anywho, not much I can really say on that.

Also, Thalton, to fight the King of Scales? Just use his own Jack to beat him up, deflect his queens fire, and you'll be fine with him. Throw in a few of your own blows and whatnot.

Also, Thallton... If you read his card? it -does- say that he gives his minions that buff... Sorry to say man, but it -does- mention it. THis is a case where ya gotta read the card. Maybe it wasn't that way in a previous patch, but when I beat it about... What, three days ago? It definitely said it man.

Anywho, as for Boss Fights themselves? I still cannot agree for the most part about them needing to go, because again, they are what MAKES games sweet to me, they ARE what attracts me to games like this, or Shadow of the Colossus, or a variety of other games... But eh. THis is a case of "To each their own" I guess.

[Codo]

Also, that "Boss fight" of Akira there... That ain't a boss fight. That's a reaction test, my good sir. :T I won't argue that reaction time in itself is a skill. But that is by no means a 'boss fight'. While there was tension, a single strike defining a 'fight' is rather counter-intuitive to most gaming. If ya want that for a boss fight, ya sure ain't gonna find it in most games, but I'm rather sure there are still others you can play. Hell, a lot of Bullet Hell games require a lot of skill, timing, patience, and an ability to adapt to ever-changing patterns. Go for those!

Another example of what is not a boss fight: Sponges. Aka, Deus Ex: Human Revolution... Those were... A league of their own. I'm not sure how the Director's Cut has changed them, but yeah.

ANywho, again, all this topic was to do was to inform the makers of another opinion on their final bout. Again, it was enjoyable, as a touch of cunning, patience, and good timing solved most of it, which I found delightful. But those rats were far too aggrivating. If at least one of them had a counterable attack of some sort, I could be completely okay with it, but when they get that 7-hit chain of melee strikes going, it is intolerable... Only made worse by the lady-rat.

[Don Kanaille]

Personally, I did not find any of the level boss fights to be overly difficult - not even the King of Plague (annoying, but not too difficult). Why? Because you know WHAT you will be facing and WHEN. You had a whole dungeon leading up to them giving you time to prepare, a basic description of what they will be capable of, an arena designed with those bosses´ abilities in mind and the Dealer even mentions when you enter the final level ("The Queen is near!" or something in that manner). Still, every boss defeat felt like a reasonable accomplishment. I thought of the needed requirements to defeat the presented challenge and was able to fulfill enough of my plan to crank out a win in the given time (or, amount of turns). There is a goal and you can see yourself working towards it.
The boss fights - or rather, face cards - become much more frustrating once randomness is added in, so later in the game when bosses may show up randomly. With a bit of bad luck - it happens often enough - you´ll fight multiple face cards in tiny arenas which leave hardly any room for avoiding attacks (King of Plagues three-split, anyone?), absolutely underprepared and possibly with extra added difficulty due to boss synergies (mainly plagues and scales). This somewhat leads the whole idea of "cilmatic boss fights" at the end of the level ad-absurdum when *getting* to a boss is multiple times harder than actually killing it. At least for me, the last three court levels caused me to relax quite noticeably once I reached the "boss": "Oh, just a single face card in a wide open arena! Finally, an easy fight - and one I am prepared for."

Now, the Dealer is a different case. You are very unlikely to defeat him on the first try because you have no idea what he will be capable of (unless you looked it up). And, unless you a very lucky, you will probably be at your WEAKEST at the end of the dungeon thanks to all the curses and pain cards, given you even survive the likely face-card-onslaught beforehand. Rather than progression towards a goal, you feel your chances decreasing more and more as the dungeon goes on. So, you just take the shortest route possible and hope you find the required items along the way. Every extra step has only a slim chance of awarding something useful, but a much higher chance for face card battles made worse by unlucky timing or combinations and brings you closer to the next pain card. Pretty much the only possibility to avoid this is an early draw of the often mentioned "Nymphs of Sweetwoods" card, which many players see as required for the run. It is not neccesarrily because it makes the run easier (though it certainly does!), but, I would argue, it changes the last level´s feeling from constant DEgresion to PROgression. To me, that seems to be the real game changer: All the other bosses feel like something to work towards to, while the Dealer is something you probably want to fight rather sooner than later unless you get that really lucky draw early in the run. No other level relies on pure luck so much.
That feeling of "plenty of luck required" coupled with the feeling of constat degression is, in my eyes, where most fo the frustration regarding the final battle stems from. While the Dealer certainly is hard, it would not be as rage-enducing if players felt they had a fair chance of adequateley preparing for it.



At least the dealer IS climatic given that he is multiple times harder than anything you encountered before, including multiple facecard encounters, unlike the other bosses. But not because he requires a special skill set but rather because he´s an extreme form of endurance test ON TOP of an extreme endurance test - the previous dungeon.