There really needs to be a way to reset stats..

[Tritoch]

I don't get why you have a fully customization stat system that's very specific, with not much information in game as to what stats you need exactly for each class, plus an auto allocation system that isn't perfect that can do things like give you fighter classes int, and NO way to reallocate those stats if you make a mistake. This is a serious oversight. Make it cost a lot of money or something if needed, but it should absolutely be in the game. The biggest downside of this game to me so far is that distributing the stats takes a lot of research to get right, and it's way too easy to screw them up.

[MysticalMoose]

I disagree, respectfully.

If you accidentally screw up your stats by, say, giving your knight some INT, you can overcome this mistake by grinding an extra level. Grinding doesn't take too long in this game, and it seems like a pretty comparable punishment to paying a lot of gold to reallocate your points. There's also no level cap, so you can screw up your stats a lot without hurting yourself too much in the long run.

Also, certain stats might seem like a mistake while you're allocating, but are actually useful in the long run. For example, if your monk is strong against magic damage, and you give him some points in MGD, chances are he would need those points eventually for when the enemies get stronger. I personally avoid putting points in PRE and AGI for most of my characters, but it doesn't hurt if you do.

There are an endless number of combinations that work, although some are better than others. If you're looking to min-max your characters, or you're playing on legendary difficulty, you should have a good understanding of the game mechanics, but otherwise, any mistake can be overcome with a little bit of grinding.

I've never used the auto-distribution function, but it's pretty crappy that it gave your fighters some INT, so I recommend doing it manually. As a general rule, if you think you're doing it right, you probably are. :)

[Airstrike[Zzz]]

Also worth mentioning is that you get more and more currency for stat points with each level, so past mistakes become less and less significant as you get higher level.

[Kasa]

I agree, any game that allows you to fully customize your stats and only gives you 1 set of companions REALLY should have a way to reset. If for nothing else then to correct mistakes you learned while playing the game, case n point I forgot to level my black mages hp pass 170. I'm now sitting at level 20 with 170 hp on this mage who can easily get one shotted by mobs and I have no way to fix it except earning another 13000 xp!

[dsweet87]

Sounds like you should earn another 13,000 xp. While your at it, you can farm synthesis materials and find recipes, giving your characters extremely powerful boosts.

This game is an old-school RPG style game. It already has plenty of hand holds, such as encounter free Moas, various free resting spots, powerful fishing and crafting. It has no need for a stat reset system when you can just restart, and there is a NG+ and Reborn already built in.

Mistakes can be made on stats, but hey, when you make a mistake you should pay for it. Thats the difference in philosophy from games like this one is striving to be, and newer games that give you invincibility if you fail the level 3 times. It's pretty obvious that all characters need HP, Knights don't need INT, etc. If you somehow do put every point into a useless stat, you always have the option of restarting the game, now knowing much more. I've beaten the game on normal in less than 5 hours, it's not exactly a 100 hour grind, that you find 60 hours in that you screwed up.

Gamers these days...

/rant off.

[Kasa]

*sigh* Comming from a game design back ground (2 year accelerated course at trios college for game design) It's not about "hand holding" It's bad game design simple.

And as a 24 year old man whos played and beaten more rpg's then I can count from dragon warrior 1 and beyond I can say that your coment is unwarranted. A good game dosn't punish it's player. Making a game is not about designer/game vs the player, it's about making a co-operitive fun experiance. An experiance that makes it to easy to cripple your play through requiring a restart or mind numbing grinding to fix is not fun.

[dsweet87]

Except it's not easy to cripple your experience, it's actually really, really hard. So hard, that if you do manage to create a no-win situation for yourself, it's probably best not to play video games that require rational thought.

[MysticalMoose]

This game requires grinding every now and then. So does Dragon Warrior, and every good RPG game out there. If it didn't require grinding, the game would be too easy, and that would be bad design. You are not forced to restart the game. You just need to grind a little more before you can move on.

Of course, you can also switch to very easy at any time, but I personally wouldn't find that very fun.

[Kasa]

@Moosinator

That's actually a pretty interesting topic in it's own accord when it comes to challenging the player in a game. I won't talk about it here since that would be hijacking this thread but if your interested we could start a new discussion thread talking about difficulty curve and RPG mechanics! Personally I always felt it was weird grinding, your not actually making the game easier by doing so, your must grind in order to gain resource needed to continue with the game.

[MysticalMoose]

I think this is a relevant topic for this thread.

I have always enjoyed grinding in RPG games. When it comes to game design, balance is key: the game should never be too easy, nor should it be too hard. If you fly through the game without grinding, and you aren't punished for it, I don't find that fun. If you grind a lot and still get punished, that's not fun either. Likewise, it isn't very fun if you play, say, a Mario game without experiencing any difficult levels that kill you a lot.

We're both big RPG gamers, so I'm curious, what are your reservations against grinding, in this game and any other RPG?

One or two more levels should do wonders for your black mage. An option you have to make the grind easier that you may not be aware of is to put your black mage in a party by himself so that he gains 4x experience.

Regarding difficulty, I find that the more difficult a game is, the more rewarding it feels when you beat it. Legendary difficulty in this game was one of the most rewarding gaming experiences I've ever experienced. I never beat Dark Souls because it was too difficult for me, but I've heard from friends who have beaten it that it is the best feeling in the world. I don't have a game design background, but I think that is good game design.

Thoughts?

[Kasa]

I've always felt it was weird when it came to grinding in a game, you never actually increase in power. It's a cycle of repitition, you inflict 1 damage and the enemies have 2 hp, you level up and now deal 2 damage and thus you move to a different area of the games, except now the monsters have 4 hp and so you grind to level up, see the pattern? In reality your power hasn't grown and you're just repeating the same actions needed to kill the foe It's a state of status quo, and I absolutly hate it when abilities that can actually effect game play or locked behind level walls, as and example the white mages ability to raise the dead, or the knights ability to hit all targets.

A good example of a game that this particularly effects is Fallout 3 and new vegas (an the older games) Want to play a smooth talker? Better rank up your speech, whats this? your speech is not high enough? better stop doing the current quest your doing to grind somthing else till you have enough ranks in order to actually do the quest the way you want to do it. Ps, don't your dare forget about your combat skills cuz by damn there is hardly anyway to play the game without personally killing at least 80% of the things in the game. (Since they lock your companions out form going everywhere with you)

You mentioned dark souls, one of my personal favourites I've beated, and thats a great example of a game that you actually get stronger in. In dark souls you never have to level, the game is 100% completlible without ever spending a single soul on stats, because it's your SKILL level that grows. And dark souls never locks away combat abilities, sure you might not be able to weild that giant ass club EFFECTIVLY without some points in str but the game still allows you to equip and wield it non the less.

It's very simlar to the legend of zelda series, it's your personal skill that grows, yes in zelda you do get equipment and more health, but unless you actually practise, all the heart peices in the world wont save you XD, generally speaking I really don't mind a bit of grinding in a game but I feel more powerful when a game rewards a me for playing intelligently instead of just overleveling my characters.

Atm i'm sitting at level 29 on all 4 of my characters so it's not like it's hard to grind, it's just not somthing engaging to do more then a few times a minute. And going back to a minor issue with what dsweet87 said, a restat feature wouldn't harm their game since it's somthing they could choose not to use, what they're basicly arguing is "This game shouldn't have this feature because I don't like it" by that logic people could hate this game because it's has any mode besides legendary mode.

Ps: I typed out a long detailed replay about this morning then steam poped with this an add and I clicked it before I posted my replay, erasing all my work lol it was such a heart breaking moment T_T.

[MysticalMoose]

The reason I enjoy grinding in an RPG is I like to see my characters transform from a band of hobo misfits to a team of mighty warriors. Typically, I grind specifically for certain skills/spells/abilities, which is more engaging than grinding for levels, but I usually gain enough levels along the way. If I only grind for levels, I don't usually find that very engaging. Grinding in Last Dream feels a lot more engaging to me because of the stat allocation system, in addition to the skill system. When I dump a level's worth of points into a single stat, I feel a noticeable difference in my characters strength, which, in my opinion, is pretty gratifying.

The skill in a good RPG is in the decisions you make. If you're under-leveled, you're gonna get pummeled, due to poor decision making. If you grind a little bit, such that the battles are difficult, but doable, every decision you make is life and death. More skills give you more decisions. Following the pattern in your first paragraph, your effective attack power is not increasing as the game progresses, but the number of decisions you can make does increase. In Last Dream, for example, you don't have too many options at the start of the game (pretty much just basic attacks,) but later on, you have access to lots of skills and items (such as healing, fists of fury, buff/debuff skills and items, fish, etc.) which make the battles a lot more interesting, provided you aren't overpowered. Of course, you need to grind to gain those options.

In Dark Souls, I appreciate the fact that you don't have to level to beat the game, but for scrubs like me, I wish leveling made the game easier. In that game, you can grind a lot but gain almost no benefit, which isn't very gratifying for me. There are other reasons I don't like Dark Souls, but that would be straying off topic. Also, to quote you, "A good game doesn't punish it's player. Making a game is not about designer/game vs the player, it's about making a co-operative fun experience." What is your opinion on that statement with respect to Dark Souls? I would argue that every good game is both "game vs player" and "game co-operating with player." Actually, I can't think of a single game that isn't "game vs player." (I understand that this statement is with respect to restarting the game from the beginning, so maybe that is just a misunderstanding.)

In the end, though, we all have opinions. Regarding the stat-reset system that you're proposing, I think that would make the game less engaging since the decisions you are making are less important. If you make a mistake, I feel like you should be punished for it, but a stat-reset system would take away from that punishment. I, as well as dsweet and likely a lot of other people, would like the game less if this was added, even if it was completely optional. You, Echoherb, and likely other people would like the game more if this was added. We'll probably never know which audience is larger, but in the end, its the developers choice, not ours. So in the meantime, just accept the game in its current form. <3

[Kasa]

A very respectible reply =]

As for your responce to my opinion on dark souls:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZTpuHV0AmA

Just because I like the game dosn't mean I won't admit that games a #@$&ing cheap death machine. <3

I would also have to concure at least in part with your sense of power/options when grinding towards a goal or just grinding for increased options. And yes you're more or less correct with what I was getting at in regards of player vs game + game co-operating with player, I guess the term carrot and the stick apply yes?

In conclusion thank you for this interesting debate and I must concure, in the end it's the developers decision to create the game as thus! XD

[MysticalMoose]

1:06 is the boss that made me rage-quit the game.

I'm glad we were able to reach a mutual understanding! :)

[dsweet87]

It's curious that people who like Dark Souls tend to like Last Dream. Very different games, but both are punishing (on Legendary mode) but very rewarding when you finally do beat them (or even get to level 2 on Legendary).

Now that I think about it, many RPGS can be beaten at level 1 (or whatever the starting level is). Last Dream is probably not one of them, at least on Hard mode. Monsters and bosses are just too powerful and there aren't enough items to properly beat them.

I wonder how far somebody could get on Very Easy, or on Hard mode. Are there any attempts at a low level run on this game? I've speed-ran and achievement ran this game several times, but have not done a low level attempt.

[Kasa]

hmmm that would be tricky, but I don't see why not, you get most of your money from fishing not fighting so in theory you could avoid battles and just buy high end gear, I highly doubt you could beat boss's like the 7th demon but you might be able to still finish the game.