How to properly enchant weapons and armor? (OWH+)

[Primaris]

So on my "serious" runs I've been running around with a Longsword+10 (Sturdy and the rest is quality) and a Spirit Robe (Adamantine and I'm wondering if I should spam quality or tough I could use some help here cause I have enough scrolls for either) with the shield you get from the Force Knight quest, a training bracelet and a bracelet of speed.

I 've found a Mythical Spear of Longinus a while ago and I just found a Legendary Terra Armor.

I don't want to waste such amazing finds. i know about the trick where you can use slimes to remove enchantments and I've already done it so that Mythical and Legendary are the primary traits. What should I put in for the rest?

[Hiraeth (J)]

Publicado originalmente por Sleeper Agent of Planeptune:

And about that Force Sword you both mentioned, does that actually exist? I've never seen one and I have over 700 hours in the game. o_o; And it sounds like it would be the perfect weapon for a Force Knight?

Yeah, a player by the name of Papa Gurgle recently screenshot himself finding one. It's one of the rarest items in the game, and the topic of how/where it spawns has been the subject of major speculation. (For the record, he found it near the end of the Dimensional Passageway from...a Black Dragon, I think?)

For its rarity, it's quite underwhelming though. It's effectively a Longsword and a Staff of Prayers smushed together. 160 durability, 4 weight, 10 attack, 10 power, Meditate +1. I'm still of the mindset that a Staff of Prayers is superior due to higher durability and lower weight, with enough attack (6) to still dispatch with weak mooks on a high STR character.
The jump from 6 attack to 10 isn't enough to cross any thresholds for defeating stronger monsters in most situations and isn't particularly noteworthy.

EDIT: If I might make a suggestion, Sleeper and I are having a tendency to hijack Kinzoku's thread to engage eachother in other topics. There's a stable (but fairly dead) One Way Heroics Discord server we could all likely have easier communication in.

[All For Her Smile]

Okay, I guess Ice Fog would work only for me because my shield slot, 99.999% of the time is occupied either by a Training Bracelet (which means that by putting on the Ice Fog I actually become stronger :p) or a Large Dragon Leather Bag because, let's face it, in OWH+ I'm a real hoarder. Though I actually haven't used one either, it was just a suggestion, my good Undine Cloak with its basic fire defense has always been more than enough.

And yeah, I just saw that screenshot in that other thread. As you said, it's basically a Long Sword + Staff of Prayers combined, that gives you 10 Force Attack and +1 Meditation, which would actually help a lot with casting Lightning. But still, yes, I expected much more, for that crazy rarity I expected it to be even better than Panty's Sword. If it was Long Sword + Salacia's Staff combined... THAT would be an amazing weapon.

I... don't really know what Discord is, but to be honest, I was hoping that this conversation would be helpful to Kinzoku, or any other who might be reading this since the topic is about "How to properly enchant weapons and armor", which is exactly what we've been discussing. I can stop if that's not what Kinzoku wants here, but let me make one last question... don't you have any comments about my little study about armor enchantments? Or did you completely miss that part? ^^;

[Hiraeth (J)]

It was just a suggestion, not only because we're jumping around several topics but also because Steam forums aren't terribly condusive to this sword of back-and-forth chat. If it's no bother to anyone then we're fine as it is.


(I'm a little confused about your conclusion about your armor; you state that the lowest number in both columns is ideal, but your 'winning' list doesn't have the lowest in either. Based on that statement it'd stand to reason that what you want is the lowest *total* value, which would make the center list in the bottom row the victor?)


In any case, your calculations are based on the assumption that -1% attrition and -1% damage mitigation are mathematically equal, which is of course entirely subjective and based on taste/circumstances/the armor in question. Since your Max Rank armor already has a massive 440 durability, just one Adamantine+ gives it an effective 733, already more than you'll ever get hit in all but 10,000km or 3,000km Passageway runs; adding another Adamantine- to that puts the effective durability at 917. I'm not saying that's inherently a bad thing - lower attrition means more efficient repair costs, which is always nice. But you're already far beyond the point where you'd have to worry about it ever breaking.

And yeah, Flameproof...is not a good enchantment. I didn't mean for my recommendation on the Undine Cloak to imply I thought otherwise. Outside of that one circumstance, I can't imagine any situation in which I'd ever want that enchantment on a piece of armor.


EDIT: And it occurs to me that if you're using vaulted armor, you're almost certainly using powerful vaulted weaponry too, meaning you're pretty much never getting hit at all, 10,000km run or otherwise.

[All For Her Smile]

Yes, the middle column has an overall better combined result, although that is because of the extra Adamantines, which lower the attrition rate too much, too easily, but on the other hand the damage received is still high (at least compared to the other combinations). And like you said, the armor already has a durability of 440, so focusing on damage reduction is more important, therefore the middle column is not the best choice here.

And well, since like I said I often play with a Training Bracelet, I do get hit often, especially in the beginning, so ignoring the attrition rate completely is also a bad idea. Which is why I thought of putting Adamantine as the main enchantment, to get a good rate without needing to use many of those. In other words, I am trying to decide between two options:

1. Adamantine+, Adamantine-, 8x Flexible-
2. Adamantine+, Adamantine-, Tough-, 7x Flexible-

I know the difference between the two is minimal (one Tough instead of an 8th Flexible), but still... I want all my Demon Lord gear to be absolutely perfect. :p

Publicado originalmente por Hiraeth (J):

already more than you'll ever get hit in all but 10,000km or 3,000km Passageway runs

Why not 10,000km Passageway runs too? You can do those too, you know. The game only stops you at 3,000km during your very first Passageway run. I'm currently attempting one, in a search for Adamantine scrolls for my new armor and maybe, why not, that Force Sword as well... >_>;

[Hiraeth (J)]

Well, if you want to boil it down to hard maths, it stands to reason that if two Tough- are inferior to an Adamantine- and a Flexible- (for both attrition and mitigation), then one Tough- is inferior in terms of total stat values to either one Flexible- or Adamantine-.

So Adamantine+, Adamantine-, and 8x Flexible- would have a greater sum total of stats.

[Primaris]

Don't worry about hijacking my thread. It's fun reading you guy's just tossing info and idea at each other. Guess I'll go for Adamantine+ and Adamantine- with 8 Flexible. Thanks a bunch.

[All For Her Smile]

Publicado originalmente por Hiraeth (S):

Well, if you want to boil it down to hard maths, it stands to reason that if two Tough- are inferior to an Adamantine- and a Flexible- (for both attrition and mitigation), then one Tough- is inferior in terms of total stat values to either one Flexible- or Adamantine-.

So Adamantine+, Adamantine-, and 8x Flexible- would have a greater sum total of stats.

Are you sure about that? Take a look at my "study" again, I do have a combination of 2x Adamantine + 8x Flexible as well as 2x Adamantine + 1x Tough + 7x Flexible. By replacing one Flexible- with one Tough-, the latter has actually a better overall stat score (88,64 against 91,05), although if you were to replace one of the Adamantines with a Tough (so 1x Adamantine, 1x Tough-, 8x Flexible-), the score shoots up to 94,89. So the order of preference is:

1. Adamantine+, Adamantine-, Tough-, 7x Flexible-
2. Adamantine+, Adamantine-, 8x Flexible-
3. Adamantine+, Tough-, 8x Flexible-

To sum up, 2x Adamantine + 8x Flexible may give better damage reduction (43,05% damange received over 45,44%), but replacing one of the Flexibles with Tough gives an overall better combined result. Again, it always depends on what kind of armor you're enchanting, so Kinzoku, if you're enchanting a Terra Armor which already has high defense and low durability, you may want to go for Adamantine+, 2x Adamantine- and 7x Flexible-, or even Adamantine+, 2x Adamantine-, 1x Tough-, 6x Flexible-.

Of course, if you have the time, you can do what I used to do - save, try one combination, take screenshot, load, try a different combination, take screenshot, repeat until you're out of possible combinations and then compare the screenshots. I think that's what I'll end up doing with my Max Rank Demon Lord's Coat, although I don't know when that will be, didn't find a single Adamantine scroll in almost 2000km yesterday. T_T

[Hiraeth (J)]

Ah, that was a poor choice of wording on my part in context. "Greater sum total" wasn't meant to be in reference to your chart. Which, again, is assuming that -1% attrition and +1% damage mitigation are equivalent.

(If we were to go by the game's...'opinion' for lack of a better term, based on the Flexible, Adamantine, and Tough enchantments, mitigation is just over twice as valuable as attrition on a 1 point to 1 point basis. This doesn't change the subjective nature of the matter though, so the point is moot.)

All I meant was, based on fundamental principles of math, if two Tough enchantments are inferior in both attrition and mitigation to Adamantine *and* Flexible, respectively, then one Tough enchantment is also inferior to Adamantine *or* Flexible, despite offering two stats rather than one.

[All For Her Smile]

Publicado originalmente por Hiraeth (S):

Ah, that was a poor choice of wording on my part in context. "Greater sum total" wasn't meant to be in reference to your chart. Which, again, is assuming that -1% attrition and +1% damage mitigation are equivalent.

(If we were to go by the game's...'opinion' for lack of a better term, based on the Flexible, Adamantine, and Tough enchantments, mitigation is just over twice as valuable as attrition on a 1 point to 1 point basis. This doesn't change the subjective nature of the matter though, so the point is moot.)

All I meant was, based on fundamental principles of math, if two Tough enchantments are inferior in both attrition and mitigation to Adamantine *and* Flexible, respectively, then one Tough enchantment is also inferior to Adamantine *or* Flexible, despite offering two stats rather than one.

And yet, look at this. I finally found 2 Adamantine scrolls, I experimented a bit and I verified my conclusion from before:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1497701091
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1497701202
Combination 1: Adamantine, Adamantine-, 8x Flexible- : 84% Defense, 48% Attrition
Combination 2: Adamantine, Adamantine-, Tough-, 7x Flexible- : 84% Defense, 43% Attrition

So, as you can see, by replacing just one Flexible- with one Tough- you maintain the same damage reduction rate, while improving the attrition rate by a whole 5%. I don't think it can get better than this. In fact, I did try several more combinations, but I couldn't find a single one with better results than 2x Adamantine, 1x Tough, 7x Flexible.

Also, I'm not sure exactly how the game calculates these things, but apparently even the order counts. Take a look here:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1497708762
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1497708875
Combination 3: Adamantine, Tough-, 8x Flexible- : 86% Defense, 54% Attrition
Combination 4: Adamantine, 8x Flexible-, Tough- : 85% Defense, 54% Attrition

Which means you gain a whole 1% of damage reduction if you simply put the Tough- enchantment before the Flexibles. That's... interesting...? =___=;

Edit: Actually, thinking about it again... and if we also take the crazy 440 durability into consideration, then maybe Combination #3 is the best one after all...

[Primaris]

Wow that is strange. I just found a Legendary Spirit robe so I guess I'll put in 1 Adamantine and the rest flexible?

[All For Her Smile]

Publicado originalmente por Kinzoku Batto:

Wow that is strange. I just found a Legendary Spirit robe so I guess I'll put in 1 Adamantine and the rest flexible?

First of all, if you read carefully my last post right above yours, you'll see that adding just one Tough- enchantment (instead of Flexible-) is actually better. So, for your Spirit Robe, I think this combination would be best, in this exact order:

1. Legendary
2. Tough-
3-9. Flexible-
10. Adamantine-

That should give you a significant boost in damage reduction, while dropping the attrition rate to exactly 50%.

Edit: By the way, keep in mind that the best combination of enchantments you can see in a dropped armor is Absorbing as basic, followed by Legendary-.

[Hiraeth (J)]

Vitality is included directly in armor calculations and caps at a 50% reduction, I believe. It seems likely your extremely high-level character's maxed Vitality is interfering with the results. I'd suggest performing the same tests on a new character (one with 0 Vitality preferably though it's unlikely to disrupt anything at that point anyway) and I'll be more inclined to address the matter then.

As far as the second set of screenshots goes...a weird way the game performs rounding, maybe..? I'm as confused as you are! Enjoy the mathematically-flawed fruits of your min-maxing labor, I suppose? =p

(By my calculations, Vitality excluded, Demon Lord's Coat with 8 Flexibles achieves .3659 mitigation, and 7 Flexibles/1 Tough reaches .3862. Normally I'd assume the game neatly rounds those values to .37 and .39, but your weird discovery has left me suspcious.)

[All For Her Smile]

Hmmm... I don't know if Vitality plays any significant role here. I performed those tests with the exact same stats, I didn't gain any EXP between those tests, it was always load, enchant, screenshot, load, enchant etc. The Vitality level is the same in all those screenshots, so why would it affect anything? I don't think it would. :/

And well, theoretically I could save up all those scrolls and try that same thing in a new dimension but that's not really possible, I don't have that much space in my Vault. Truth is, I should throw away some of the stuff in there, but I don't want to... x_x

That thing about Tough giving better results if placed before the Flexibles isn't new, to be honest. I had noticed it a long time ago as well, but then I couldn't be bothered to do what I did yesterday. Still, it's weird, isn't it? Now I'm starting to think that maybe, when the game says about Flexible that it "reduces the damage received to 90%", they actually mean something slightly different. It wouldn't be surprising if there's an error in translation there, the game is full of those anyway. Have you noticed the description of the Training/Training- enchantments? It doesn't make any sense and they still haven't fixed it after so long. :p

Also, I've been meaning to ask, how do you make these calculations? Apparently you're not using a simple method like I did in Excel? And lastly... with that last paragraph, you kinda verified yourself that 1 Tough/7 Flexibles is better than 8 Flexibles, right?

[Hiraeth (J)]

Because your Vitality is already offering a massive 50% mitigation level that's greatly condensing all of the integer values of the armor enchantments.

"So, as you can see, by replacing just one Flexible- with one Tough- you maintain the same damage reduction rate"

It should be fairly obvious that this statement doesn't make any sense outside the context of the numbers becoming so small that minor improvements fail to move the result down further than rounding immediately moves it back up.
Your Vitality stat is effectively adding an Absorbing+ enchantment to the calculations that cuts all further reductions in half and makes rounding more prominent. Flexible- offers more mitigation than Tough- does. That's why this debate exists to begin with. =p


As far as my calculations, I've previously just been multiplying every mitigation stat together (Vitality, armor defense, enchantments) and then rounding to the nearest hundredth. However, in light of your recent findings regarding the *order* of enchantments affecting the value, I compared my results with the in-game stats and found them to, while always be close, never match up. I've been extensively testing other theories attempting to determine how the system works under the hood.

EDIT: I believe I may have just figured it out! My vault is rather barebones and so I lack many of the items necessary for adequete testing; if you could assist in verifying my findings, that would be greatly appreciated.

Conclusion: Damage mitigation calculations DO begin with Vitality, followed by armor Defense, and then go down the enchantment list one by one. HOWEVER, rather than rounding the value at the very end to the nearest hundredth, it appears to round after every single new multiplier. Not only that, but it *always* rounds DOWN, never up, whatever the exact number. (.299x damage taken is rounded to .29x)

I used your '3' and '4' Demon Lord's Coats to verify. (4 is first to better demonstrate why 3 gets that extra 1%)

(Original expected value via my old formula): .5 * .85 * (.9^8) *.95 = .173 = .17 = 83% mitigation. (Incorrect)

Armor 4:

.5(Vitality) * .85(armor) = .425 = .42
.42 * .9(Flexible) = .378 = .37
.37 * .9(Flexible) = .333 = .33
.33 * .9(Flexible) = .297 = .29
.29 * .9(Flexble) = .261 = .26
.26 * .9(Flexble) = .234 = .23
.23 * .9(Flexble) = .207 = .20
.20 * .9(Flexble) = .1863 = .18
.18 * .9(Flexble) = .162 = .16
.16 * .95(Tough) = .152 = .15 ------ (85% mitigation, consistent with screenshot 4)


Armor 3:

.5(Vitality) * .85(armor) = .425 = .42
.42 * .95(Tough) = .399 = .39
.39 * .9(Flexible) = .351 = .35
.35 * .9(Flexble) = .315 = .31
.31 * .9(Flexible) = .279 = .27
.27 * .9(Flexble) = .243 = .24
.24 * .9(Flexible) = .216 = .21
.21 * .9(Flexible) = .189 = .18
.18 * .9(Flexible) = .162 = .16
.16 * .9(Flexible) = .144 = .14 ------ (86% mitigation, consistent with screenshot 3)

If my theory is correct, then Armor 3's enchantments, due mostly to luck, frequently *just* pass a hundredth value, allowing the flawed rounding system to immediately knock off almost an entire 1% from damage mitigation effectively for 'free.' (Note that both armors reach 84% mitigation at +9 despite one having 8 Flexibles so far and the other having 7 Flexibles and a Tough.)



EDIT AGAIN: I just realized that my previous paragraph also inadvertently provided an accurate explanation for why armors 1 and 2 would have the same mitigation value. This would seem to further support my theory; I'll have to run the math on more pieces of armor after your response to confirm.

[All For Her Smile]

Right, Vitality does add a great deal of damage reduction. And yes, in low levels obviously Flexible's x0.9 damage is better than Tough's x0.95, but in low levels you don't get hit that hard anyway, so it doesn't matter. If you're doing 10,000 km runs, you'll be playing most of the game with high stats, so it matters more what kind of results those enchantment combinations give you then, not in the short early period. And yes, like you said, due to the high Vitality which functions as Absorbing+, the 0.90 of Flexible and the 0.95 from Tough are calculated as virtually the same, making one Tough better at the time due to the extra attrition benefit.

And wow, nice job figuring it all out. Indeed your calculations are verified by my screenshots, so now we are certain about the order and the rounding the game does. So even if the game does that by accident, your numbers do prove that 1 Tough and 8 Flexibles end up being better than 9 Flexibles. And at the same time, Adam/2x Tough-/8x Flexible- drop the defense to 84%, which further proves that adding just one Tough-, no more, before the Flexibles is the "sweet spot", if that's the correct expression here. I no more have doubts about how to enchant my Demon Lord's Coat.

By the way, regarding the order of the enchantments, I also found out that it applies to others as well, not just Tough/Flexible. More specifically, a Long Sword with Sturdy, 3x Sturdy-, 4x Slayer-, 2x Training- did at the time 555 damage, but putting the Training before the Slayers and making it Sturdy, 3x Sturdy-, 2x Training-, 4x Slayer- made the sword deal only 551 damage. I thought you might want to know that. :p