Shield Bash misses too frequently

[justin.m.chase]

I feel like it should have a higher chance to hit than a regular attack, as far as I can tell it's basically unusable as it is now. Every time I try to use it I just miss over and over then die because I'm getting hit by the attacker. Bigger shields don't seem to alter your chances of hitting, which seems weird too.

[Velorien]

I think it's because it's in your off-hand, and therefore suffers from the dual-wield penalty. I do agree that this makes it a weak active talent. It does have a powerful passive bonus, though, which makes it the only talent to offer protection from ranged attacks.

[Morphic]

Pretty much what Velorian said. If you take the Dual Wield talent you can actually hit with it. However I don't recommend it since by that time most melee enemies have Heroic Charge. It basically forces you to do a Shield Bash -> Heroic Charge or else the enemy will charge you after your bash.

[Velorien]

Originally posted by Setzway:

Pretty much what Velorian said. If you take the Dual Wield talent you can actually hit with it. However I don't recommend it since by that time most melee enemies have Heroic Charge. It basically forces you to do a Shield Bash -> Heroic Charge or else the enemy will charge you after your bash.

Is that really a problem? Heroic Charge does give you a little bonus damage, and it'll be against a stunned foe who can't dodge, block or parry. With decent positioning, it'll even be against an enemy you've just put in a trap.

[Morphic]

Well it can be. IMO, in most situations you're not using Shield Bash for the Knockback but for the Stun, buying yourself a turn to drink/cast/read/ etc. Early on Bash -> Charge is pretty effective for dealing with enemies in a 1v1 environment, especially if your weapon is good/decent. However later on a Heroic Charge's role shifts to solely being about closing the gap between your enemy, the bonus damage/hit is nice but if you're Sword & Boarding it will still take quite a few hits to bring an enemy down. Bashing and then having to Charge(lest you be hit by one) essentially does very little damage at the cost of 2 energy. I'd rather try using 2 Crushing Blow. Though that's just me, hence I wouldn't recommend using a Talent point for Dual Wield when you can get something better/more useful.

[Velorien]

I see where you're coming from. The talent point cost especially is something of a problem for a build that doesn't parry.

[justin.m.chase]

But if sheild bash hit with more reliability it could be incredibly useful, positioning yourself near pits for examle coudl be a viable strategy. Or hitting a monster nearer to another foe so they attack each other while your run away and pull out a bow. That sort of thing. But when you're sitting there face to face with a monster and your shield bash has a 1/3 chance or worse of success you don't have that many chances to succeed before you're dead.

[Skaliton]

i wonder velorien (since you are actually good at this game..unlike me whose put over 40 hours and still doesn't have the hp potion)

is there a workable build using shield bash that doesn't require some exact items and spells?

[Velorien]

Originally posted by Skaliton:

i wonder velorien (since you are actually good at this game..unlike me whose put over 40 hours and still doesn't have the hp potion)

is there a workable build using shield bash that doesn't require some exact items and spells?

I've never created one, but I can how it might work. You'd want Dual Wield to fix the accuracy and improve the damage, and Heroic Charge (as Setzway says) to close the distance so you can make the most of the stun duration. It might also have an interesting synergy with Trap Master, allowing you to set up traps in advance and then knock enemies into them. You certainly wouldn't want to disarm any traps while there were still enemies to knock into them.

If you got Celestial magic, you could heal yourself while the enemy was stunned, as an alternative to finishing them off (especially if you didn't get Heroic Charge). Renewing Touch would be especially good with a high-defence build. Draconic and Infernal spells would be scrambled by the shield, although there's a fair bit you could still do out of combat with Draconic magic - Mage Armour/Mirror Image in advance, for example, and Remove Curse never goes out of style.

As a shield user, your damage output would be inferior, so you'd want a weapon with debuff enchants (like paralysis or blinding), which you could then apply liberally while the enemy was stunned. A crushing or piercing weapon would be good to help with armoured targets, for the same reason. You wouldn't have to worry so much about damaging soft targets (archers/mages), since Shield Bash would give you the best available protection from them.

Needless to say, you'd want a heavy armour build with a defensive focus, and the corresponding types of equipment. With dubious mobility and ranged options, Common Literacy would be important to get you out of emergencies.

However, I don't even play STR characters much, never mind a build like this, so the above is all theorycrafting.

[Morphic]

I'll add a few suggestions to Velorien's excellent theorycraft...

Trap Master would be great for hallways, you could bash an enemy away and stun. This would allow you to place a Bear/Magic Trap in front of you, forcing melee enemies to step on it in order to get you.

For weapons, I'd personally go with a Hammer since it's Crushing, Durable and gets a +1 modifier. I've also had decent sucess using a Flail since it's also Crushing but has the Flailing effect, allowing you to bypass enemy blocking. I *think* it also works on Parrying enemies, such as Duelists but I'm not sure since I've always bashed them.

Alternatively I had a run where I used a Sword with Blind and a Metal Barrier, then I had Paralyzing Crusher for secondary. I would charge an enemy, then go a couple of rounds hoping to blind them. If I didn't, then I would bash, switch to Crusher and continue attacking them. Once I got a few Potion of Swiftness or a Haste ring, this became very effective. Stunning them with Bash gave me a free turn to swap but the Haste effect allowed me to Heroic Charge the enemy with my Crusher. Often times I would get a Paralyze on them and being able to Crushing/Killing Blow them.

Honestly I wouldn't recommend trying for a Shield Bash build. You are better off going to a pure STR build that relies on 2 handed weapons but swapping to a weapon and shield when outnumbered/ranged enemies. So far I find AGI based characters have the hardest time in the first 4-8 Levels but become incredibly powerful later on. The only trouble I've ever had with my AGI characters is ranged enemies. STR characters on the other hand typically have an easier time at first then become gear dependant...

[Velorien]

Originally posted by Setzway:

Trap Master would be great for hallways, you could bash an enemy away and stun. This would allow you to place a Bear/Magic Trap in front of you, forcing melee enemies to step on it in order to get you.

One important note: Heroic Charge bypasses traps. Even if they end their move on a trap, if that move was a Heroic Charge, the trap doesn't seem to affect them. I've had to lure melee enemies onto traps by moving backwards down corridors and making them follow, *then* charging in once they were trapped. With that said, I think if you can get them to stay on the trap (e.g. by putting it directly in front of you), it will affect them in later turns; I'm not sure of the exact rules.

I've reported this bug, and hopefully it will be fixed eventually.

[Mustardoish]

I would disagree with Setzway, I found shield bash as a passive ability combined with a good shield as the most reliable mixture. The most likely way to get killed as a fighter are enemy archers and mages, and a good shield can deflect. Put a ring of evasion in and you got something nice going with great survivability, as said earlier, something wihich freezes/shocks helps as well. Then again, what is the benefit of using a one-handed weapon with two hands or a two handed weapon? If it was just for the D3, then it hardly seems worth the risk.

[Morphic]

Originally posted by Velorien:

I've reported this bug, and hopefully it will be fixed eventually.

Well...that explains why those Daemons and wolves were completely unaffected by Pit Traps lol.

Originally posted by Mustardoish:

I would disagree with Setzway, I found shield bash as a passive ability combined with a good shield as the most reliable mixture. The most likely way to get killed as a fighter are enemy archers and mages, and a good shield can deflect.

I'm not denying the Passive of Shield Bash is good. That's why I said to use one when fighting ranged enemies as a Melee character. However to create a build totally focuses around Shield Bash, which is what the OP wanted... IMO, is pointless and not that good.

Originally posted by Mustardoish:

Then again, what is the benefit of using a one-handed weapon with two hands or a two handed weapon? If it was just for the D3, then it hardly seems worth the risk.

Well, using a 1-hander in two hands gets bonuses from both STR and AGI, so you'd need to do a hybrid. That can be really good but is very dangerous to play as that almost always means STA suffers. If you use a 2-hander weapon you don't need the AGI plus you get the added damage. D3 can be quite a bit of extra damage on top of a D6, imagine it having two D6 enchants or a D6 and a debuff like blind. Now you are looking at anything from 3-21 damage from a normal blow, now lets add in a Crushing Blow with a +3 modifier, that's an extra 3-9 damage in a single hit. That's quite a bit of damage. IMO, the whole point of 2-handing, much like duel wielding, is to kill your enemy as fast as possible. Whereas with Sword & Board the idea is to survive long enough to kill your enemy. That's why I suggested swapping between the two once you get some sort of disable ability/debuff. You also can't forget the passive and utility of Sweeping Blow or sacrificing a D3 for a +1 and an extra tile of range by using a Spear.

With that said, you should use what you feel most comfortable with and what you feel makes you survive. I've managed to get into level 16+ range using 2-handed weapons but that's just me. Whereas with Sword & Boarding I've only ever gotten to level 15 on a consistent basis, simply because I can't kill some enemies fast enough. There are times were you are forced to be outnumbered and having a great Shield really helps you out, however it can be a detriment. If you are like me, you start relying on blocking/deflecting which can get you in all sorts of problems. That's why I like using both 2-handers and a Shield, best of both worlds.

[Mustardoish]

Thanks for you explanation. I just feel that the two enchantments and the bonus from crushing blow is much more pronounced than the D3. Especially for higher levels, where your strength increases your block, the passive of shield bash increases as well, whereas the D3 always are the same. But you are right, for low levels it is indeed good to have.

[justin.m.chase]

I think all of that sounds good, you just shouldn't have to have dual weild for it to be viable. The shield bash should essentially act as a dual weild but for shields only. Its a major bummer to require two skills for the one to be worth anything at all.