Missing Something - or is Combat Crap?

[Blackcompany]

Weapon speed - like a 5 yr old trying to use a sledgehammer. Has Harkyn swung sword before?

Shield Bash - It breaks their guard, but they recover faster from BEING hit, than I do from HITTING. Result: Guard Breaking enemies leaves ME open, not THEM.

Enemy Turning - Enemies can spin on an axis, or pivot point, during their attack animations, so that they auto align with the player. Result: Enemy can start an attack that would normally turn them 45 - 90 degrees. But if you are outside of that strike zone, they just keep spinning until they are in line with you. The same thing can happen on stabbing attacks, allowing enemies to correct between 30 - 45 degrees even when stabbing straight forward, to make sure they can still hit you.

The only logical conclusions I can reach is that hit boxes are hopelessly broken, combat animations and weapon swing speed need serious fixing, and because of this, the lynchpin of the entire game - its combat - is at this point hopelessly brioken.

The good news: Deck 13 and CI got me to buy this game at full price. But the cost to them: I will never again buy another game Deck 13 makes or one that CI publishes, unless they make a serious effort to correct the obvious issues in this one first.

[The Badman]

Originally posted by Phantom:

I don't like the weapon system. In Dark Souls in end game every weapon pretty much deals the same amount of damage of another weapon of the same type. In LoTF, you have the Warrior Judge's Straightsword and Justice...the amount of damage each one can deal is too much different! One deals 70 and the other 170! So you don't really have a choice, use the best weapon you have even if you don't like it or you die.

BS. Shortsword +10 cant deal as much damage as Longsword +10. Greatsword is inferior to Zweihander damage wise even with scaling. They make up for it by different movesets.

If you use the same weapons you start with in DS beside the mace, you are doing something wrong. Since even with all the differences, an average/high damaging weapons with a suitable moveset is better than everything else. Even in pvp, many weapons are useless or a huge handicap.

If you want all balanced weapons, dont play rpg.

[Uottafac]

Originally posted by The Badman:

Originally posted by Phantom:

I don't like the weapon system. In Dark Souls in end game every weapon pretty much deals the same amount of damage of another weapon of the same type. In LoTF, you have the Warrior Judge's Straightsword and Justice...the amount of damage each one can deal is too much different! One deals 70 and the other 170! So you don't really have a choice, use the best weapon you have even if you don't like it or you die.

BS. Shortsword +10 cant deal as much damage as Longsword +10. Greatsword is inferior to Zweihander damage wise even with scaling. They make up for it by different movesets.

If you use the same weapons you start with in DS beside the mace, you are doing something wrong. Since even with all the differences, an average/high damaging weapons with a suitable moveset is better than everything else. Even in pvp, many weapons are useless or a huge handicap.

If you want all balanced weapons, dont play rpg.

Maybe i had to be more precise...

Not EVERY weapon has the same damage output but most of them. And the shortsword doesn't have the same damage output of a longsword but is less heavy so it's pretty much balanced.

Greatsword isn't inferior to the Zwei damage wise.

There is a difference between DkS and LoTF: in LoTF there's the ABSOLUTE best weapon for each type. Rhogar for poleswords, Peacemaker for gss, ecc...In Dark Souls 2 no because the difference in damage output between a Longsword and a Broadsword or a Sun Sword is really low.

[slimak]

@Badman :

1. I dont want to use gauntlets. I want pure melee. if the melee requires magic/gauntlet or any other gimmick to make combat reasonable\complete\interesting\fully functional, it means it's melee is incomplete and badly designed\balanced\put together.

2. Tried diffrent greataxes\greatswords\you name it, yesterday, they felt completely the same each class. I dont know where did you notice them acting all that diffrent. attack speed also was same for the whole class, and at this point I dont care about statistics/attack speed(which looks the same for all anyway) weapont only did diffrent damage that's it, and energy consumption doesnt feel like it differed much. if it feels all similar, it means theres little to none wariety.

3. well, I beg to differ as I dont see it the way you do. mostly on the hitboxes matter.

[johnnybleu]

Originally posted by Phantom:

I don't like the weapon system. In Dark Souls in end game every weapon pretty much deals the same amount of damage of another weapon of the same type. In LoTF, you have the Warrior Judge's Straightsword and Justice...the amount of damage each one can deal is too much different! One deals 70 and the other 170! So you don't really have a choice, use the best weapon you have even if you don't like it or you die.

If you go for highest damage number, yes. But there are other things to consider, like animations and attack speed. I'll take claws and daggers over a greatsword any day of the week. I can do more damage in less time, safely, while using less energy. Sure, I may have to hit 2-3 times, but it still ends up being more "powerful".

[The Badman]

@slimak

1. You dont need to. I oliberate most shielded enemies using only shield charge or bait them with running atk. Also they alway have a long atk (3 hit combo for the big tower shield guys and fortifiction for the small one=>backstab) at the end of which you can hit. I use gauntlet purely out of convinience. Beside, you got all that cool spells, why not using it. It isnt like dark souls where spells are limited per rest, your mana recharges. Also like I said enemies are at their best equal to the players in term of tactic and stats, not gimp like DS2 mobs or cheap like their NPC invaders.

2. Their animations and hitboxes are the same which is bad. But they are the same kind of weapons why should the anim be any different other than pvp balance that isnt in this game? Their atk speed is slightly different, which means 1 or 2 more hit, and that 1 or 2 more is really important for great weaps because they do great damage each hit. Also stamina consumption when holding R2, special abilities, runeslots. In ng, every weapons are viable just like DS, ng+ onward needs different weapons just like DS. Or just use persistence for the entirety of NG++ for a 2 hour final boss battle, just like using low tier weapons in DS NG+7 with or without leveling.

3. You have problems playing the game, that's all. Even when I do a slashing atk with spine slasher, enemies slightly behind me get hit when the blade come there at the end of the animation.

[The Badman]

Originally posted by Phantom:

Originally posted by The Badman:

BS. Shortsword +10 cant deal as much damage as Longsword +10. Greatsword is inferior to Zweihander damage wise even with scaling. They make up for it by different movesets.

If you use the same weapons you start with in DS beside the mace, you are doing something wrong. Since even with all the differences, an average/high damaging weapons with a suitable moveset is better than everything else. Even in pvp, many weapons are useless or a huge handicap.

If you want all balanced weapons, dont play rpg.

Maybe i had to be more precise...

Not EVERY weapon has the same damage output but most of them. And the shortsword doesn't have the same damage output of a longsword but is less heavy so it's pretty much balanced.

Greatsword isn't inferior to the Zwei damage wise.

There is a difference between DkS and LoTF: in LoTF there's the ABSOLUTE best weapon for each type. Rhogar for poleswords, Peacemaker for gss, ecc...In Dark Souls 2 no because the difference in damage output between a Longsword and a Broadsword or a Sun Sword is really low.

Because lotf isnt DS that's why. I loved DS to death but their weapons system isnt something I like. Everything is "balanced" in DS because pvp, they have no choice there. It's too much like cod if you ask me. Also dont use dagger type against DS bosses, they are just good agianst bosses in lotf :)
Weapons in lotf also has weight and different speed. They are meant for different situations. The early great weaps are very good against mobs while the later, slower one are better against bosses. You can stop the game to switch loadout, so while sticking to one? You also have the option of customising weapons the way you like be it scaling elemental or debuffing without detriments. Why cut your physical damage in half and lower it scaling? Because someone will complain that you kill them in one hit while they wear light armor and dont put on buff? (and they still complain anyway)

[slimak]

if what you are saying is indeed true, than it proves the point of combat system being badly designed. melee weapons shouldnt be meant for diffrent purposes in such arcade game. this is not like firearms, when you pick sniper rifle for long distances, and innacurate but high firing rate smg for close quarters, and so on. this is a melee. there should not be diffrent weapons for diffrent situations in a game that doesnt even aspire for being realistic. they didnt manage to make every weapon be universal and for suitable for all purposes as it should be.

again, you arise the argument of diffrent weapon speeds that vary sooooooo much that it's barely noticable... ;)

oh, and I really call BS on the fact that breaking enemy guard make me stagger, so breaking guard serves no actual purpose, as enemy recovering and player staggering both even themseves out.

[The Badman]

Why should it be one weapons do everything? Thinking to find the right tool for the right job should be important in every game. It is DIVERSITY, not bad design. You can snipe with an assault rifle too, but it is just 100x harder (most fps's level is small as fk , ppl just use sniper because it is 1 hit kill even on the leg or they cant aim at all). And the game really reward you for impraticality against boss like evading first warden instead of tank him, using lightning weapon against lightning boss...

Also, I replay the game abit with heavy weapon and this is the thing I noticed:

1st: Enemies really lose stamina while attacking you, so after one quick atk from enemies, a light atk from you is enough to guard break then light atk against for huge damage. I have a str/faith build with stamina only enough for 2 hit and I kill them all. This is on NG+, I havent lvl up since.
2nd:The holding r2 atk is super useful, because it either bait enemies to drop guard and atk you (if you atk them when they close in) and stagger even the big shield guys for you to bail out. Or break guard long enough for a light atk. Dont want to lose much stamina? Do the timed follow up light atk, it saves a ton of stamina. Of course the enemies behavior is harder to predict than souls because most of theit moves are faster than you. But you want a challenge, right ;)

Also I can do 3 hit with last will and mid tier greataxe while only 2 with high tier great axe. With timed light atk, it is 1 hit more (barely enough stamina) for everyone of them. Also, greataxe r2 atk consume less stamina than r1 and a followup timed r1 consume much less stamina than normal. If this is intended, than the devs are genious. But of course, I know that this is a side effect feature just like dead angling or reverse backstab ;). Also, "my axe" let me hit quicker and escape faster than the high tier axe I'm using. I lost quite a lot of HP using the bigger axe and that is inescapeable but my heavy armor and potions cover it for me so no biggie :) It is also bad design when you wear practical armors and tank hit using a slower, high damage weaps, right? Bosses also cant touch me if I decide to play patiently, but just back to rolling and hitting indiscriminately amirite?

One word for you: not "git gud" but "think harder". When DS come, DS players tell ppl to "get it" , when a game come with derivative from their beloved formular, it's so funny some of them dont get it at all.

[Trinity]

Lol.. The best weapon isn't last will.. It's peacemaker (you get it from killing the guard with the sword once you meet the two guards shouldn't miss them, I think) once you put a flawless luck rune in it : 530

if you use two handed hard attacks, 900 damage... so... Surprise.

[slimak]

@Badman yes I want challenge, but based on common sense, not idiotic situations when heavy enemies with tower shields give me painfully accurate combos when I try to sneak from behind and give them a backstab while they are at idle. they usually recover in split second after my first hit getting come damage, but hitting me right away with unnatural speed. this stuff really happen, and it makes this game look, well, very weird and... lacking consistency.

I appreciate your tips on gameplay by the way. maybe someone will find it useful.

as for weapons I dislike what CI GAMES done with, lets say, greathammers and greataxes, I totally dislike their sloooooow attack speeds - no pleasure, little sense of control, rather lotter if you gonna hit target in time before he makes three circles around you.

as for DS vs LOTF comparison I didnt have these sorf of issues with DS mechanics as I have with LOTF. it's not that I want to LOTF to be DS. it's the fact that in DS I alwas blamed myself for failing ( and I failed A LOT!), but very rarely rage quitting, and in LOTF im having nothing but frustration that make me press ALT+F4 not because I die often, but becuse I dislike inconsistencies between player and enemies ( attack speed, broken guard enemy recovery, and so on ). I feel slowed down in some artificial way in too many situations, lacking control and responsiveness.

you say that theres method for everything in your numerous examples, and that's fine... probably there is. but it's not about "not getting" the game, it's about "not digging" the game. you dig?

it's the big things (the main design, or the philosophy behind all that) that are made awkwardly I dislike, not caring about anymore about little solutions that might possibly make it work and help me utilizing currently disliked weapons. my complain about this game is this intense feeling that I'm forced to use "workarounds", to exploit this unnaturally (at times) slow paced mechanics to use it in my favour, rather than just to naturally utilize the mechanics and enjoy the gameplay in the process... for me it isnr enoyable and doesnt feel natura in the long shot.

as for LAST WILL vs PEACEMAKER on my build the first (with flawless luck rune) gives waaaaay more damage than the latter. (I have simple str/agi build, just for melee). so it probably scales along with.... something ;)

[Premier666]

Originally posted by slimak:

@Badman :

1. I dont want to use gauntlets. I want pure melee. if the melee requires magic/gauntlet or any other gimmick to make combat reasonable\complete\interesting\fully functional, it means it's melee is incomplete and badly designed\balanced\put together.

Need I remind you that the VERY FIRST THING you do when starting a game is choose the TYPE OF MAGIC you get?

And again, the game doesn't ask you "do you want these magical gauntlets?" No, the game FORCES you to take them.
Obviously the developers balanced the game around you having access to magic at all times.

You chose to gimp yourself, and yet you want the game to be dumbed down to cater to your wish to be a speshul snowflake who don't use no magic?

Saying that the game is incomplete because it is balanced around the player not gimping themselves for no real reason is absolutely idiotic.

[slimak]

as for gauntlets : I take the gauntlet, but using it is just an option (to make game more flashy and ... easier?). game doesnt force me to use it. same applies to 1 hand weapon + shield, or 2 handed weapon... these are OPTIONS.
if game was forcing me to do anything, it would FORCE me to invest equally (or in balanced way) in abilites and spells, but instead it gives me complete freedom on that field, so your argument is invalid.

melee system that requires gimmicks to compliment it isnt a complete solution for me (it's limited solution). it's exotic, yes (it shoots sparkles and rainbows ;)), but not a complete one. they could have made it complete just by balancing it with greater precission and attention. but they didnt.
and if what is, is exactly what they were aiming at (gimping melee on purpose), then I dislike it with even greater confidence. it's a matter of opinion really, so I'll keep mine, and you just stick to your idiotic one ( no offense... ;) ).

[Premier666]

Originally posted by slimak:

as for gauntlets : I take the gauntlet, but using it is just an option (to make game more flashy and ... easier?). game doesnt force me to use it. same applies to 1 hand weapon + shield, or 2 handed weapon... these are OPTIONS.
if game was forcing me to do anything, it would FORCE me to invest equally (or in balanced way) in abilites and spells, but instead it gives me complete freedom on that field, so your argument is invalid.

You never have to put points in faith to use your basic spell nor to use the gauntlets.
Just because you want to be a special snowflake, that doesn't mean they have to balance the game specially for you.

It's not a matter of opinion, you dumbass (offense intended), you calling the game unbalanced because it doesn't cater to your special snowflake build is just you being factually wrong.

The game does, in fact, have some problems (I wouldn't even call it a 7/10 game, maybe a 6.5), but none of them are related to your gimmick run.

It's like playing a party-based RPG solo, and then complaining that the game is balanced for a full party.

[The Badman]

Originally posted by slimak:

@Badman yes I want challenge, but based on common sense, not idiotic situations when heavy enemies with tower shields give me painfully accurate combos when I try to sneak from behind and give them a backstab while they are at idle. they usually recover in split second after my first hit getting come damage, but hitting me right away with unnatural speed. this stuff really happen, and it makes this game look, well, very weird and... lacking consistency.

I appreciate your tips on gameplay by the way. maybe someone will find it useful.

as for weapons I dislike what CI GAMES done with, lets say, greathammers and greataxes, I totally dislike their sloooooow attack speeds - no pleasure, little sense of control, rather lotter if you gonna hit target in time before he makes three circles around you.

as for DS vs LOTF comparison I didnt have these sorf of issues with DS mechanics as I have with LOTF. it's not that I want to LOTF to be DS. it's the fact that in DS I alwas blamed myself for failing ( and I failed A LOT!), but very rarely rage quitting, and in LOTF im having nothing but frustration that make me press ALT+F4 not because I die often, but becuse I dislike inconsistencies between player and enemies ( attack speed, broken guard enemy recovery, and so on ). I feel slowed down in some artificial way in too many situations, lacking control and responsiveness.

you say that theres method for everything in your numerous examples, and that's fine... probably there is. but it's not about "not getting" the game, it's about "not digging" the game. you dig?

it's the big things (the main design, or the philosophy behind all that) that are made awkwardly I dislike, not caring about anymore about little solutions that might possibly make it work and help me utilizing currently disliked weapons. my complain about this game is this intense feeling that I'm forced to use "workarounds", to exploit this unnaturally (at times) slow paced mechanics to use it in my favour, rather than just to naturally utilize the mechanics and enjoy the gameplay in the process... for me it isnr enoyable and doesnt feel natura in the long shot.

as for LAST WILL vs PEACEMAKER on my build the first (with flawless luck rune) gives waaaaay more damage than the latter. (I have simple str/agi build, just for melee). so it probably scales along with.... something ;)

Tower shield guys arent accurate at all. You need only to roll out of their first hit then just walk to the left/right side and they cant hit you.
As I said before, different weapons should need different strategies and build. Dark Souls weapons have requirement, and that is intended so players wouldnt deal too much damage at a certain time so the challenge wouldnt be trivial and also prompt players to get comfortable with weapons rather than go for the biggest dps. Dark Souls 2 make requirements simply a minus damage modifier, which is arcadey and artificial as fk, it's a more balanced game but not a good rpg with this kind of features. Also, using a straightsword in souls is much different than using a greatsword, one can be spammed, the other is suicidal. lotf just pushed it to the extreme. If anything, fighting shield mobs in DS is even easier because the only thing you do is to guard break (why the fk is guard break in DS2 so inaccurate compared to DS1, it's akward artificial difficulty right there to make a crucial move harder to pull off if you ask me) or block them and reiterate. That design philosophy give rise to DS2's horde mode galore. While in lof strategies and understanding are crucial, and really fun to pull off.
It's not workaround at all, it's the rules of the game. You can switch weapons to suit your playstyles, not wanting the rules to conform to you.
Also str/agi build is gimped unless you are 100+ lvl. Even then, you have so much option to utilise your build to the best, ever try a pair of daggers or caetuses? Try parrying with small shields?

[slimak]

@premier666 don't be a fool and stop this offensive nonsense. you were the first one to use the "I." word, I gave it back to you.

@Badman you're cool. I think I'll try your tips some time.