No weapons....?

[Grave]

Whe someone brings up the idea of weapons in the game, you have two camps. Those who like running and say there should never be anything near a weapon in the game, saying that lends an element of fear. Then the other side saying "I would want to fight back." The Devs themselves come down on the side that you're lucky you get a knife, pretty much.

These threads get nasty fast, so let's break this down fairly and be civil, if possible. Come on forum, I know you have it in you to be civil.

Now, I have a few survival games on my account, and I play them enough to know one common theme is in each, which is the most human of all. Survival means violence. This is actually a part of this game, weather you like it or not. Have you ever tried taking stalkers and sharks down with your knife? I have. Why? We're human. Violence is our very nature, as is the drive to own our surroundings.

The case against weapons:

-It adds that element of fear. Yes, it does. Being powerless against the world which wants to eat you does make you feel afraid. It's a rush.

-You focus on your exploration and minding your surroundings.

-Unarmed, you're forced to respect nature instead of strike out at it.

-**Nothing respawns. At the moment, nothing in the game seems to respawn if it's not held in your personal aquarium. Even bodies of slain sharks don't seem to vanish, but lay there where killed. If you could kill things, you could empty the ocean of all life... even though the predators in the game seem to do that on their own.


The case for weapons:

-Since man's earliest days, making tools has been the key to our advancement. Those tools often doubled as weapons, and as such, allowed us to hunt food. It also allowed us to defend against things that would destroy our survival.

-**Immersion breaking. In a furture where I have a handheld tool which takes raw elements and scrap, then re-builds them at what seems the atomic level into other things, how is making a spear to fish with not on the list? In stranded deep, one of the things you go for first after your tools is making a spear to catch fish at a slightly longer melee range. The spear is one of the oldest and first things humans made as a tool to hunt food.

-Man's desire to not just survive, but thrive. It isn't enough to simply co-exist with nature. While the point of that must not be missed or under-stated, there is a damaging element in only allowing you to be in the middle of the game's food chain. This is a form of burn-out, actually, which tells the player that no matter how they might try, there is no point in working toward anything.
*If you can't work toward rescue -yet-, you should be working toward self defense so you can rule as king of your prison.*

What I marked with *s were parts I feel are improtant. Main points that need thought.

Now, all of this, I write knowing the devs stance on weapons. I respect it, and if they want to stand by it, I believe in their right to do so. I just want them to know, as a player, as a customer, I feel this choice is not the right one.

And no. I'm not advocating for a fish-nuke or anything silly, before someone goes and takes this as advocating for devistating weapons.

[Tim Timsen]

Originally posted by The Great Khorneholio:

No weapons....?

No weapons.
The devs don't want any in this game because of mass shootings, as explained in the biggest (and locked) thread about this topic:
http://steamcommunity.com/app/264710/discussions/0/523897653306355954/#c371918937268702725

[Grave]

That is short-sighted, as that would mean 'no guns'. There are more things than guns, as stated with the idea of spears in melee range. Somehow I don't think mass knifings will skyrocket because Subnautica gave the player a knife. I don't think mass pikings will rise if we have hand held spears, either.

If that is their logic, it's faulty at best. Noble, but faulty.

[Tim Timsen]

Originally posted by The Great Khorneholio:

If that is their logic, it's faulty at best. Noble, but faulty.

Instead of shooting/knifing/piking something to death, you'll have to use your brain to find a non-lethal solution.
I'd say that's a win-win.

[Grave]

There is no non-lethal solution to an animal that wants to eat you. I encourage you to camp near a bear den and then talk it out of killing you.

There is only running if you cannot or will not fight. I'd like to choose to fight. (In this case, the ocean itself is the bear den, and you got left there with no option but being next to it.)

And having read the dev's post, I actually agree on some points. I'm likely more in line with them than they might think if reading this post. The thing is, I know the difference between real life and a video game. I also know that in survival, stranded on a planet with fish, in an ocean of things wanting to eat me... I'd fight back. Not out of violence, but because I intend on living.

This is the immersion break I spoke of.

[Willi the Gifter of Chaos]

Originally posted by Tim Timsen:

Originally posted by The Great Khorneholio:

If that is their logic, it's faulty at best. Noble, but faulty.

Instead of shooting/knifing/piking something to death, you'll have to use your brain to find a non-lethal solution.
I'd say that's a win-win.

You do know that just avoiding enemies will only last for so long before it gets boring, tedious and illogical in a non-horror game as well it opens you up to the possiblilty of making a mistake causing your death. Your brain is designed to inovate. This game's lack of logic when it comes to a spear (knife+creepvine+air pipe) goes against that evolutionary trait we humans have.

[tran_fors]

I think your example is a little exaggerated (to put it mildly). The bear's den isn't the entire ocean. That would be like saying "don't camp in the forest, that's the bear's den".

Instead, I'd suggest that "the bear's den" would be the area a stalker is patrolling - you make your base there, there's going to be some trouble. Here's where the analogy falls to pieces, though: A bear won't be scared off by a cpl knife swipes, and a Stalker usually is.

[Tim Timsen]

Originally posted by The Great Khorneholio:

There is no non-lethal solution to an animal that wants to eat you. I encourage you to camp near a bear den and then talk it out of killing you.

There is only running if you cannot or will not fight. I'd like to choose to fight.

And having read the dev's post, I actually agree on some points. I'm likely more in line with them than they might think if reading this post. The thing is, I know the difference between real life and a video game. I also know that in survival, stranded on a planet with fish, in an ocean of things wanting to eat me... I'd fight back. Not out of violence, but because I intend on living.

This is the immersion break I spoke of.

If you know the difference between real life and a video game, then you should know that a video game does not have to be as "immersive" as real life, because duh, it's a video game, it doesn't need realism and immersion to be good.

You have Fallout 4.
Fallout 4 has a bunch of weapons you can use for killing whatever you want (except for essential NPCs).
One of those weapons is some kind of catapult that shoots mini nukes. Yeah, that thing is immersive and realistic af, I'd totally run around with that in real life.
Not.
Play Fallout 4 if you want to kill stuff so badly.

[Willi the Gifter of Chaos]

Originally posted by Tim Timsen:

Play Fallout 4 if you want to kill stuff so badly.

Goody. yet another comment to add to the list of comments that tell us if we want something like a spear that we should go play cod/mw/fallout/(insert generic shooter game here). #flawlesslogic

[Grave]

Logic is what I seek here. I actually do have fallout 4, mind you, and that has nothing to do with a game like subnautica.

Logic dictates we, as Willi stated above, that we innovate. My logical brain would see something like the reaver and know "That's too big for me. I should be away from that...but that sand shark? I could handle that if I just put a lance on the front of my seamoth and got up to ramming speed. Food for days."

This is why I make the case for some form of weapon. Not out of violence, but survival. As I said before, you seek to be king of your prison in a case like subnautica presents. You're stuck, so you have to start learning to own it, not fear it.

[Tim Timsen]

Originally posted by Willi the Gifter of Destruction:

Originally posted by Tim Timsen:

Play Fallout 4 if you want to kill stuff so badly.

Goody. yet another comment to add to the list of comments that tell us if we want something like a spear that we should go play cod/mw/fallout/(insert generic shooter game here). #flawlesslogic

Goody, yet another comment that does not add anything to the discussion about a topic that has gotten a big No from the game's developers.

[owo]

''In a furture where I have a handheld tool which takes raw elements and scrap, then re-builds them at what seems the atomic level into other things, how is making a spear to fish...'' no
nononono
NO
STOP IT
Real world logic =/= argument to put weapons in the game
Just because it makes SENSE, doesn't mean it should be added. If it was the case, this game would be completely different and boring.

[Grave]

Originally posted by Umberto:

''In a furture where I have a handheld tool which takes raw elements and scrap, then re-builds them at what seems the atomic level into other things, how is making a spear to fish...'' no
nononono
NO
STOP IT
Real world logic =/= argument to put weapons in the game
Just because it makes SENSE, doesn't mean it should be added. If it was the case, this game would be completely different and boring.

Thank you for your feedback of "Stop it".

Also, if real world logic should not apply, would you also advocate the player not need food, water, or powering the base? I think there are modes for that, but all of them revolve more around building and exploring instead of actual survival.

So, without real world logic, you have no solid core mechanics.

Also, I don't think I will be stopping it.

[Willi the Gifter of Chaos]

Originally posted by Umberto:

''In a furture where I have a handheld tool which takes raw elements and scrap, then re-builds them at what seems the atomic level into other things, how is making a spear to fish...'' no
nononono
NO
STOP IT
Real world logic =/= argument to put weapons in the game
Just because it makes SENSE, doesn't mean it should be added. If it was the case, this game would be completely different and boring.

How would a simple spear change the entire game?

[owo]

Originally posted by The Great Khorneholio:

Originally posted by Umberto:

''In a furture where I have a handheld tool which takes raw elements and scrap, then re-builds them at what seems the atomic level into other things, how is making a spear to fish...'' no
nononono
NO
STOP IT
Real world logic =/= argument to put weapons in the game
Just because it makes SENSE, doesn't mean it should be added. If it was the case, this game would be completely different and boring.

Thank you for your feedback of "Stop it".

Also, if real world logic should not apply, would you also advocate the player not need food, water, or powering the base? I think there are modes for that, but all of them revolve more around building and exploring instead of actual survival.

So, without real world logic, you have no solid core mechanics.

Also, I don't think I will be stopping it.

As a matter of fact, hunger makes the player explore
health makes the player cautious/scared
power makes you not being able to do anything you want at any time
water also rewards exploration
It doesn't matter if any of this makes real life sense, it helps create a fun game. Does weapons create a fun game? No. So why would real life sense even be an argument?

[Willi the Gifter of Chaos]

Originally posted by Umberto:

It doesn't matter if any of this makes real life sense, it helps create a fun game. Does weapons create a fun game? No.

1: tell that to factorio, minecraft, warframe, tf2, etc.
2: Even if weapons don't make a game fun, how would a spear break this game and make it not fun?