Is the Sea Dragon Leviathan Blind?

[Mafu]

I've seen this info on the Reaper Leviathan and figured it out for the ghost leviathan... but i want to know if the sea dragon leviathan is blind and uses sound

[Zemecon]

The Sea Dragon uses sight. More specifically movement. It could be a play on Jurassic Park, maybe, but if you are in their line of sight when you are moving around then they will track your movement. There have been a few instances now where LP'ers have made a dash toward the lava castle and had the Sea Dragon right behind them. This would not happen with a creature that relies more on sound than sight.

[Danson]

Are you asking from a gameplay perspective or lore perspective? I'd imagine since the game doesn't say anything about it, then the Sea Dragon is distinct from the Reaper in that it doesn't use sonar. That being said, the Reaper and Ghost aren't blind. They "use" sonar, but have functioning eyes as well. However, the sonar thing is just a lore tidbit. When it says "If you can hear it, it can see you", that's not actually how the gameplay mechanic works. It doesn't "track" you with the roar, it simply has an effective aggro range which increases based on the amount of light/noise you're emitting.

[Zemecon]

Originally posted by Danson:

However, the sonar thing is just a lore tidbit. When it says "If you can hear it, it can see you", that's not actually how the gameplay mechanic works. It doesn't "track" you with the roar, it simply has an effective aggro range which increases based on the amount of light/noise you're emitting.

No, [echolocation] does actually factor into it. The noise a Reaper makes establishes its aggro range, not the noise the player makes. If, say, you honk the Cyclops horn while a Reaper roars, you can negate the effects of the Reaper's [echolocation]. If Reaper aggro was based on the sound the player makes then this would not work. But it does.

EDIT: Changed two words.

[Nibelungen Finest]

I think what leads to these kind of questions is Cyclops.

when you run slow speed plus silent mode, leviathans are ignored you completely.
though active sonar could still detect you IRL, not sure what kind of sonar leviathans use.

if they use sight, cyclops is a damn big ship cant be miss
if they are blind, what those eyes for?

ultimately, its just a game, not some drowning simulator right?

[Danson]

Originally posted by Salinité:

Originally posted by Danson:

However, the sonar thing is just a lore tidbit. When it says "If you can hear it, it can see you", that's not actually how the gameplay mechanic works. It doesn't "track" you with the roar, it simply has an effective aggro range which increases based on the amount of light/noise you're emitting.

No, sonar does actually factor into it. The noise a Reaper makes establishes its aggro range, not the noise the player makes. If, say, you honk the Cyclops horn while a Reaper roars, you can negate the effects of the Reaper's sonar. If Reaper aggro was based on the sound the player makes then this would not work. But it does.

You're right that the sonar does reflect its aggro range, but I'm not sure what you mean about player sound not having any effect. This is the entire reason the Cyclops is rigged with silent running. In Silent Running, a reaper will not detect nor attack you at moderate ranges. This is not true if silent running is off. I haven't played with the horn much, but I was unaware it had any practical gameplay application. I think it's more likely that the horn just doesn't increase your noise level, and is there for fun. You are absolutely more likely to be noticed and attacked if you're running at full speed and get the "cavitating" message.

Basically, if you can hear the Reaper, then making a lot of noise will attract it. But just hearing it doesn't mean it can see you. Again, I have never noticed the horn actually do anything in terms of sound. You'll notice your sound bar doesn't go up when you honk it. Pretty sure it's just for show.

[Zemecon]

Originally posted by Danson:

Originally posted by Salinité:

Originally posted by Danson:

However, the sonar thing is just a lore tidbit. When it says "If you can hear it, it can see you", that's not actually how the gameplay mechanic works. It doesn't "track" you with the roar, it simply has an effective aggro range which increases based on the amount of light/noise you're emitting.

No, sonar does actually factor into it. The noise a Reaper makes establishes its aggro range, not the noise the player makes. If, say, you honk the Cyclops horn while a Reaper roars, you can negate the effects of the Reaper's sonar. If Reaper aggro was based on the sound the player makes then this would not work. But it does.

You're right that the sonar does reflect its aggro range, but I'm not sure what you mean about player sound not having any effect. This is the entire reason the Cyclops is rigged with silent running. In Silent Running, a reaper will not detect nor attack you at moderate ranges. This is not true if silent running is off. I haven't played with the horn much, but I was unaware it had any practical gameplay application. I think it's more likely that the horn just doesn't increase your noise level, and is there for fun. You are absolutely more likely to be noticed and attacked if you're running at full speed and get the "cavitating" message.

Audible sound is different from echolocation (not sonar - sonar is the technological equivalent). Echolocation is much more high-pitched, but furthermore the brains of creatures that use it are able to process it much like they do sight, so a creature emits a high-frequency sound and "sees" whatever those soundwaves bounce off of. Normal audible sound won't do that. The Cyclops can cut its engine or switch to Silent Running and no creature will hear it but if something like a Reaper uses its form of echolocation then it should still "see" the Cyclops. Keep in mind the creature using echolocation needs to keep using it continuously in order to track a moving object so unless the creature is very mobile - like a bat - it will take a while and several attempts before the creature catches the moving object, whereas sound can be more reliable for letting the creature know the object is there. That is why a Reaper might respond more quickly to the sound your Cyclops makes than its own form of echolocation. However, since we are still talking about sound waves here, honking the Cyclops horn can drown out the Reaper's echolocation at the expense of telling it you are in the area. The Reaper then only needs to use its sight to find your Cyclops if it is close by. Otherwise it might take a few more attempts before it finds your Cyclops.

[Danson]

It sounds like you're approaching this from a real world perspective, not a gameplay perspective. I know how echolocation works; I'm saying that Reapers don't actually use echolocation from a gameplay perspective. It's how their aggression is explained in the lore, but it's not like the game AI is actually receiving information from the roar. It's just a cue that there is a Reaper nearby, nothing more.

You can hear the Reaper roar, stop your Cyclops, and honk your horn all day. It isn't going to attract the Reaper. This isn't because you're drowning out echolocation, it's because the horn doesn't do anything other than make boat noises for the player to enjoy.

[Zemecon]

The game mechanics behind Reaper echolocation were modelled after real-world biology - whether or not it works just as well is beside the point. There is no reason to think the technology used to create the game is incapable of doing this.

[Danson]

I didn't say it's incapable of doing it, I said it just doesn't do it. There aren't any game mechanics behind Reaper echolocation. It is there for story and background, that's it. Sure they could have implemented a realistic echolocation mechanic, but they didn't. You can test it in-game all you want, the Reaper's "echolocation" exists only in the datapad entry.

From the Wiki: The Reaper Leviathan usually emits loud, echoing roars audible from great distances. According to the data bank entry, this roar is a form of echolocation, though the roar does not function like this in game.

[Zemecon]

Originally posted by Danson:

You can hear the Reaper roar, stop your Cyclops, and honk your horn all day. It isn't going to attract the Reaper. This isn't because you're drowning out echolocation, it's because the horn doesn't do anything other than make boat noises for the player to enjoy.

First of all, the point is to honk the horn while the Reaper roars. If you honk the horn afterward then the Reaper already knows where your Cyclops is. Second, whether the Reaper responds to audible sound or not is a different questiion. Audible sound works differently and it doesn't pinpoint a moving object's location unless the captor has trained itself to use sound to that level of proficiency. Blind people cannot start off relying to sounds around them to tell them where the sound is coming from but they can learn to do this eventually and many do.

Originally posted by Danson:

I didn't say it's incapable of doing it, I said it just doesn't do it. There aren't any game mechanics behind Reaper echolocation. It is there for story and background, that's it. Sure they could have implemented a realistic echolocation mechanic, but they didn't. You can test it in-game all you want, the Reaper's "echolocation" exists only in the datapad entry.

But how would you know any of this? Have you asked a developer to explain to you how Reaper echolocation actually works or are you only dismissing the whole idea out of skepticism? I know Subnautica is only a game but that in no way should tell you how it actually works. I choose to take in the part about the Reaper's roar both from a lore perspective and as a game mechanic because it has not yet proven to me that it doesn't work in both those ways.

Originally posted by Danson:

From the Wiki: The Reaper Leviathan usually emits loud, echoing roars audible from great distances. According to the data bank entry, this roar is a form of echolocation, though the roar does not function like this in game.

Does a Reaper need to make a beeline straight for you seconds after it roars in order to prove that the mechanic works? Echolocation doesn't work that way. It takes several tries in order to give you a result. I am giving Subnautica the benefit of the doubt until it proves me wrong and so far it has not done that.

[Gomer]

Originally posted by Salinité:

Originally posted by Danson:

You can hear the Reaper roar, stop your Cyclops, and honk your horn all day. It isn't going to attract the Reaper. This isn't because you're drowning out echolocation, it's because the horn doesn't do anything other than make boat noises for the player to enjoy.

First of all, the point is to honk the horn while the Reaper roars. If you honk the horn afterward then the Reaper already knows where your Cyclops is. Second, whether the Reaper responds to audible sound or not is a different questiion. Audible sound works differently and it doesn't pinpoint a moving object's location unless the captor has trained itself to use sound to that level of proficiency. Blind people cannot start off relying to sounds around them to tell them where the sound is coming from but they can learn to do this eventually and many do.

Originally posted by Danson:

I didn't say it's incapable of doing it, I said it just doesn't do it. There aren't any game mechanics behind Reaper echolocation. It is there for story and background, that's it. Sure they could have implemented a realistic echolocation mechanic, but they didn't. You can test it in-game all you want, the Reaper's "echolocation" exists only in the datapad entry.

But how would you know any of this? Have you asked a developer to explain to you how Reaper echolocation actually works or are you only dismissing the whole idea out of skepticism? I know Subnautica is only a game but that in no way should tell you how it actually works. I choose to take in the part about the Reaper's roar both from a lore perspective and as a game mechanic because it has not yet proven to me that it doesn't work in both those ways.

Originally posted by Danson:

From the Wiki: The Reaper Leviathan usually emits loud, echoing roars audible from great distances. According to the data bank entry, this roar is a form of echolocation, though the roar does not function like this in game.

Does a Reaper need to make a beeline straight for you seconds after it roars in order to prove that the mechanic works? Echolocation doesn't work that way. It takes several tries in order to give you a result. I am giving Subnautica the benefit of the doubt until it proves me wrong and so far it has not done that.

whoosh!!! You just don't get it do you

[Danson]

Originally posted by Salinité:

Originally posted by Danson:

You can hear the Reaper roar, stop your Cyclops, and honk your horn all day. It isn't going to attract the Reaper. This isn't because you're drowning out echolocation, it's because the horn doesn't do anything other than make boat noises for the player to enjoy.

First of all, the point is to honk the horn while the Reaper roars. If you honk the horn afterward then the Reaper already knows where your Cyclops is. Second, whether the Reaper responds to audible sound or not is a different questiion. Audible sound works differently and it doesn't pinpoint a moving object's location unless the captor has trained itself to use sound to that level of proficiency. Blind people cannot start off relying to sounds around them to tell them where the sound is coming from but they can learn to do this eventually and many do.

Originally posted by Danson:

I didn't say it's incapable of doing it, I said it just doesn't do it. There aren't any game mechanics behind Reaper echolocation. It is there for story and background, that's it. Sure they could have implemented a realistic echolocation mechanic, but they didn't. You can test it in-game all you want, the Reaper's "echolocation" exists only in the datapad entry.

But how would you know any of this? Have you asked a developer to explain to you how Reaper echolocation actually works or are you only dismissing the whole idea out of skepticism? I know Subnautica is only a game but that in no way should tell you how it actually works. I choose to take in the part about the Reaper's roar both from a lore perspective and as a game mechanic because it has not yet proven to me that it doesn't work in both those ways.

Originally posted by Danson:

From the Wiki: The Reaper Leviathan usually emits loud, echoing roars audible from great distances. According to the data bank entry, this roar is a form of echolocation, though the roar does not function like this in game.

Does a Reaper need to make a beeline straight for you seconds after it roars in order to prove that the mechanic works? Echolocation doesn't work that way. It takes several tries in order to give you a result. I am giving Subnautica the benefit of the doubt until it proves me wrong and so far it has not done that.

Again, the horn doesn't do anything. I understand that logically honking it while the Reaper roars would disrupt it, but it doesn't. The horn is just there for show. The reason it seems to work for you is because the Reaper's roar does NOT tell it where you are. Even if you hadn't honked, it still wouldn't come for you under the same conditions.

I have tested this myself, as have many others. I thought it was pretty well understood that there isn't actually an echolocation mechanic in the game, but apparently it isn't. You don't have to believe me, and if it's more immersive for you to assume there's some sophisticated echolocation system going on, then go ahead and keep honking your horn to "confuse" the thing.

It takes a few "roars" to find you because the damn thing swims in circles. The first roar may be at the opposite end of the patrol area, the next a bit closer, until finally the Leviathan's patrol path intersects with you. It isn't getting closer because of echolocation, it's getting closer because it's programmed to swim around in a certain area.

If I had access to the source code then I'd just use that to prove to you that this mechanic doesn't exist, but I don't. You can either take my word for it and be glad to learn something new, or continue to think the Reaper programming is WAY more sophisticated than it is.

[Canadian Normandy]

Yeah echolocation is only in the lore. Not a programmed mechanic. In order for a reaper to aggro on you when you're not in the cyclops you need to enter it's actual cone of vision when it's not preoccupied with something else. Otherwise reapers swim in preprogrammed patrol paths. When youre in the cyclops the amount of noise you are making will make the reaper aggro on you if you are too close regardless of being in line of sight. It's aggro systems work exactly like every other predator in the game, just at a longer range.

[Zemecon]

Originally posted by Gomer:

whoosh!!! You just don't get it do you

I don't know what there is to even "get." If a game's lore tells you about its mechanics then you can either take that or leave it. There is no rule saying how a game can or cannot work unless the PC it works on limits it and I don't think these developers would outright lie about what their game's capabilities are.

Originally posted by Danson:

Originally posted by Salinité:

Originally posted by Danson:

You can hear the Reaper roar, stop your Cyclops, and honk your horn all day. It isn't going to attract the Reaper. This isn't because you're drowning out echolocation, it's because the horn doesn't do anything other than make boat noises for the player to enjoy.

First of all, the point is to honk the horn while the Reaper roars. If you honk the horn afterward then the Reaper already knows where your Cyclops is. Second, whether the Reaper responds to audible sound or not is a different questiion. Audible sound works differently and it doesn't pinpoint a moving object's location unless the captor has trained itself to use sound to that level of proficiency. Blind people cannot start off relying to sounds around them to tell them where the sound is coming from but they can learn to do this eventually and many do.

Originally posted by Danson:

I didn't say it's incapable of doing it, I said it just doesn't do it. There aren't any game mechanics behind Reaper echolocation. It is there for story and background, that's it. Sure they could have implemented a realistic echolocation mechanic, but they didn't. You can test it in-game all you want, the Reaper's "echolocation" exists only in the datapad entry.

But how would you know any of this? Have you asked a developer to explain to you how Reaper echolocation actually works or are you only dismissing the whole idea out of skepticism? I know Subnautica is only a game but that in no way should tell you how it actually works. I choose to take in the part about the Reaper's roar both from a lore perspective and as a game mechanic because it has not yet proven to me that it doesn't work in both those ways.

Originally posted by Danson:

From the Wiki: The Reaper Leviathan usually emits loud, echoing roars audible from great distances. According to the data bank entry, this roar is a form of echolocation, though the roar does not function like this in game.

Does a Reaper need to make a beeline straight for you seconds after it roars in order to prove that the mechanic works? Echolocation doesn't work that way. It takes several tries in order to give you a result. I am giving Subnautica the benefit of the doubt until it proves me wrong and so far it has not done that.

Again, the horn doesn't do anything. I understand that logically honking it while the Reaper roars would disrupt it, but it doesn't. The horn is just there for show. The reason it seems to work for you is because the Reaper's roar does NOT tell it where you are. Even if you hadn't honked, it still wouldn't come for you under the same conditions.

I have tested this myself, as have many others. I thought it was pretty well understood that there isn't actually an echolocation mechanic in the game, but apparently it isn't. You don't have to believe me, and if it's more immersive for you to assume there's some sophisticated echolocation system going on, then go ahead and keep honking your horn to "confuse" the thing.

Given that Reapers typically do roar before they find you, no comparison in detection rates between roaring and not roaring beforehand can really be made. Given that Reapers always see you, anyway, once you get within a certain distance, the echolocation mechanic cannot be dismissed based on the result of getting caught. Reapers always come for me eventually after they roar. That is the only thing I can say for sure. I am not trying to believe anything. I am saying there is no proof otherwise so I will take it. The only way to know for sure would be to ask a developer themselves. It is like the whole resources respawning thing. Some say they've proved it works one way, others say they've proved it works in another way.

If you are still skeptical about the Cyclops horn, try honking it in front of some Reefbacks. If a Reefback roars shortly afterward consistently then the horn does have an effect on them and hence it is an actual mechanic in the game.

Originally posted by Danson:

It takes a few "roars" to find you because the damn thing swims in circles. The first roar may be at the opposite end of the patrol area, the next a bit closer, until finally the Leviathan's patrol path intersects with you. It isn't getting closer because of echolocation, it's getting closer because it's programmed to swim around in a certain area.

The question is whether or not it finds you more quickly and readily if it does roar compared to whether or not it does if it doesn't roar and that cannot really be proven anyway unless the Reaper is completely silent. Then it is bugged. If the developers had modelled the Reaper's echolocation after real-life biology then the Reaper isn't going to immediately come right after you. It is going to keep roaring as it moves and if you stay still while it continues to roar then it should detect you. If you keep moving then it will keep roaring and should take longer to locate your position, and depending on how fast you can move through the area you will probably escape before it does unless you run right into it. I've never remained in one place while in the vicinity of a Reaper and not been detected. That is what I am saying. There may not be any proof that Reaper echolocation does work, but then - depending on the conditions of the comparison needed to draw a conclusion - it wouldn't be all that possible to say it can't work. That is why you turn to the lore, because the lore tells you what the developers want to do with that idea.

Originally posted by Danson:

If I had access to the source code then I'd just use that to prove to you that this mechanic doesn't exist, but I don't. You can either take my word for it and be glad to learn something new, or continue to think the Reaper programming is WAY more sophisticated than it is.

I would like to know how you can even say the Reaper echolocation doesn't work when you don't have access to the source code. This sort of thing is impossible to prove either way.

Originally posted by MapleNormandy:

Yeah echolocation is only in the lore. Not a programmed mechanic. In order for a reaper to aggro on you when you're not in the cyclops you need to enter it's actual cone of vision when it's not preoccupied with something else. Otherwise reapers swim in preprogrammed patrol paths. When youre in the cyclops the amount of noise you are making will make the reaper aggro on you if you are too close regardless of being in line of sight. It's aggro systems work exactly like every other predator in the game, just at a longer range.

This is one of those experiments that would require extensive amounts of time to verify. You are referring to the Reaper's vision, which all creatures respond to when you are right in front of them, and I can't expect any statement saying "if there is a guaranteed way for a Reaper to detect you then it is the only way to detect you" to hold any merit.

EDIT: Fixed a typo, fixed punctuation, and took out two words.

[Danson]

Dude, give it a rest. You are obviously unwilling to accept the truth, so believe whatever the heck you want. Keep tooting your horn because you're an expert who's found a way to interfere with the Reaper's echolocation (which doesn't exist).

I've done my best to explain this to you, another poster said WOOSH indicating this is all going right over your head, and a third poster has stated that echolocation is just a lore thing. In addition, the wiki states the roar doesn't function like you want it to. Disregard all of that if you want, but stop the wall of texts completely ignoring everything we're saying. You are wrong, get over it. It isn't impossible to prove: The datapad says, verbatim, "If you can hear it, it can see you." This is not true, which is very easily verified by sitting around listening to the roars and realizing that the Leviathan isn't going to come for you, no matter how many times it roars.