Why make this game a chore? It used to be perfect.

[Masterfrog]

I've always loved coming back to Subnautica every few months, exploring the new updates and just cruising around the most beautiful underwater environments and finding crazy new things, until this time.

I have no idea when it happened but it seems like you've made all sorts of food and battery timers go down much faster and made all sorts of technology inaccessible from the beginning. This is 100% the wrong move if you ask me, and the harsher timers only makes Subnautica become a farming simulator, which is the worst thing you could ever make it. I played for many hours today and I spent more of them just looking for food, drink and battery parts than I did actually exploring and *playing* the game. This is horrendous and not enjoyable at all. I really hope this isn't the direction you're taking the game, because for me this will kill it.

As for harder-to-get technology, it seems like certain technology fragments are only available in one or a few hard-to-reach places, which just means that referencing the wiki becomes a mandatory part of the game instead of having a game where you can feasibly find everything you need as a narrative part of naturally playing the game. Do I need to tell you that the latter is objectively preferable? It's just poor design when a game is so vague and linear that the only reasonable recourse is to always resort to reading the wiki at every point in the game.

I used to be able to play this entire game without needing to look up anything, just finding everything eventually as I go along and having a good time of doing everything. Now I can't even build a remotely decent underwater base without finding multiple obscure fragments hidden away in very few spots I would never find through the natural progression of the game. The joy of exploring and excitement of finding new technology pieces I didn't even know I wanted has been replaced with the chore of looking up on the wiki where to find X so I can finally build Y, which I only did so I can then go to Y and pick up A.

Go back to your roots, to where this all started. This used to be a atmospheric exploration game with just enough survival aspects to be interesting. Now it's become something where I'm too occupied with looking on the wiki and going straight from point A to point B where I don't even bother to look at the environments and where the survival aspects have become a boring chore that just takes up too much time. If you happen to have players who actually wants any of that, which would honestly surprise me, make it a part of the hardcore game mode. None of this has any reason for being in the normal survival part of Subnautica.

[Sirus]

@Venema Pipes. Also, bring an air bladder.

@Zemecton

1. Linear in the way that you have to get ALL ZE BLUUPRINTS before you can make a base and enjoy yourself.

2. Yes. Looking for fragment after fragment IS tedious. Especially if you include the additional burden of making two or three dozen beacons to mark territory while you do so. What the fragments are is irrelevant to me. And I doubt that i'm the only one with this opinion.

[frogger]

Fragment hunting is boring. I can think of a system that does not just hand the player everything, but is less boring.

They can introduce item/blueprint experience. Using an item can help unlock similar but more advanced technology. For example, using the seamoth can provide progress towards unlocking the cyclops. Using solar can help progress to other power sources. This progress can be used in place of unscanned fragments.

The current fragment system can stay in place while being aided by the experience system, overall making the game more time efficient and rewarding for using current technology. Thoughts?

[Sirus]

That sort of tells the exploration to go away though. It encourages the player to just farm experience.

Exploration still needs to be a very important part of Subnautica. The problem is that it's much too difficult/time-consuming to find the fragments for vital blueprints. The Multi-Purpose Room, the Solar Panel, the Bioreactor, the Mobile Vehicle Bay, the Cyclops, the Drill Arm for the Prawn, Alien Containment, so on and so forth.

[Zemecon]

Автор сообщения: Sirus.exe

1. Linear in the way that you have to get ALL ZE BLUUPRINTS before you can make a base and enjoy yourself.

You don't need to get every single blueprint to build a base. Get the Habitat Builder and make the structures, then get the Scanner Room and Moonpool fragments. You gan do that in any order. And you only "need" to get any of the blueprints if you want them. That does not make the game linear. "Linear" is when you need to follow a very specific set of events in a very specific order every single time in order to play at all. There are tons of things to do in Subnautica without having to build a base at all. Lots of players use the Cyclops as their only base. You are defining enjoyment as doing only what you like to do.

Автор сообщения: Sirus.exe

2. Yes. Looking for fragment after fragment IS tedious. Especially if you include the additional burden of making two or three dozen beacons to mark territory while you do so. What the fragments are is irrelevant to me. And I doubt that i'm the only one with this opinion.

Then play Creative Mode.

Автор сообщения: frogger

Fragment hunting is boring. I can think of a system that does not just hand the player everything, but is less boring.

They can introduce item/blueprint experience. Using an item can help unlock similar but more advanced technology. For example, using the seamoth can provide progress towards unlocking the cyclops. Using solar can help progress to other power sources. This progress can be used in place of unscanned fragments.

The current fragment system can stay in place while being aided by the experience system, overall making the game more time efficient and rewarding for using current technology. Thoughts?

The developers of Subnautica want players to rely on fragments to get blueprints unless they are playing in Creative Mode. They are not about to take that out of Survival Mode and Freedom Mode simply because some players won't use Creative Mode.

[Sirus]

@Zemecton

1. Oh really? Let's see you make a base without power. Or without the ability to make a bloody multi-purpose room.

And also, it's ah....not just me. As the previous 27 pages of comments might suggest. ALSO ALSO, please look at where I said, "before you can make a base and enjoy yourself".

The Cyclops is a good emergency base, true, but it's absolutely not meant to be a permanent base. Even if you make the most of it, you can only fit so many storage lockers in it, nevermind room for the other critical base devices you need. Also, Cyclops is near useless without the Power Cell Charger, which is just a whole nother can of worms i'm not going to get into.

So, the more I think about it, the more patently ludicrous the idea of not needing fragments to do anything base-related sounds.

No. There ARE blueprints you NEED. NEED. NEED NEED NEED. Not want. NEED. Cyclops, Seamoth, Prawn. And that's assuming we're going full-scale survivalist.

2. http://replygif.net/i/735.gif

That argument is swiss cheese. You DO know that, right? Thanks for the invitation to rip into it. Creative mode is if you merely want to build a base without ANY of the challenges involved in doing so. Yes? Yes. Well, here's a thought for you to ponder:

What if we WANT to play in Survival Mode, and both make a cool base while handling whatever the game decides to throw our way? Reapers be damned.

Creative Mode, honestly, sounds EVEN MORE BORING THAN THE CURRENT SITUATION. So, no, i'm not going to go run away to Creative Mode, when the flagship game mode, the game mode that most players, both old AND new, the game mode that ALL new players are inevitably going to pick, has a problem that makes it stodgy, tedious and boring.

I don't mind needing fragments to unlock blueprints. But the current placement for these things needs to be overhauled dramatically so that we can get the vital things(see: Multi-Purpose Room) very early on, and start hammering out a base sooner, rather than late-game.

3. Well, yeah. I don't think the fragments idea is flawed at it's core. It's just that this current iteration has problems that need a good hammering out.

[Zemecon]

Автор сообщения: Sirus.exe

1. Oh really? Let's see you make a base without power. Or without the ability to make a bloody multi-purpose room.

You don't need to power a base if all you need it for is refuge and something for which to watch the ocean. I typically don't start building a base until late game. You don't need a multipurpose room, either. I would be satisfied without both, even though I would like to eventually have them. They are something extra that I would be willing to work for.

Oh, and you know you already have the solar panel blueprint right straight from the start, right?

Автор сообщения: Sirus.exe

And also, it's ah....not just me. As the previous 27 pages of comments might suggest. ALSO ALSO, please look at where I said, "before you can make a base and enjoy yourself".

You aren't making any sense here. If anyone else has been saying the same thing you've been saying in this and your last post, I would be refuting them as well.

Автор сообщения: Sirus.exe

The Cyclops is a good emergency base, true, but it's absolutely not meant to be a permanent base. Even if you make the most of it, you can only fit so many storage lockers in it, nevermind room for the other critical base devices you need.

The Cyclops makes an excellent primary base. You can put more lockers in it, you can run a fabricator and the modification station on it, you can put a medkit fabricator in it, and thanks to the Power Nap update you can now fuel it indefinately, too.

And you don't really need any base at all in this game. You can use the Escape Pod but you don't really need that, either, other than for saving your game. You can always find your way back to it by watching for its radio signature.

Автор сообщения: Sirus.exe

Also, Cyclops is near useless without the Power Cell Charger, which is just a whole nother can of worms i'm not going to get into.

But you should get into it because it is possible to get the battery charger blueprint without making a base or even without the Cyclops. Once you get the battery charger, you no longer need to worry about copper. That Power Nap update was a game-changer. Literally.

Автор сообщения: Sirus.exe

So, the more I think about it, the more patently ludicrous the idea of not needing fragments to do anything base-related sounds.

No. There ARE blueprints you NEED. NEED. NEED NEED NEED. Not want. NEED. Cyclops, Seamoth, Prawn. And that's assuming we're going full-scale survivalist.

I do quite well for a while before getting the Seamoth and the Cyclops. So I don't really need any of the blueprints for building a base. I do want to go deeper into the ocean so eventually I will want to get the Moonpool blueprint, but that is quite different from saying I need it to play the game. And if this is true for me then it is true for everyone else.

Автор сообщения: Sirus.exe

2. http://replygif.net/i/735.gif

That argument is swiss cheese. You DO know that, right? Thanks for the invitation to rip into it.

I realize you are frustrated about having to find blueprints but venting about it is no way to make a valid argument. I will point out that "tedious" is a very relative term. I love the thrill of going after some of the blueprints, like the Cyclops hull fragments in the dune area. So finding those fragments is not tedious for me. It is fun. Quite likely a lot of other players feel the same way and I wish you and a few of the other people posting in this thread would stop defining how I should feel about this game and then saying it should be changed because of that. You have a lot of other players to consider who may feel differently so stop being one-sided, please. Atleast I am not running a campaign to make changes to Subnautica that you and other players disagree with.

Автор сообщения: Sirus.exe

Creative mode is if you merely want to build a base without ANY of the challenges involved in doing so. Yes? Yes. Well, here's a thought for you to ponder:

What if we WANT to play in Survival Mode, and both make a cool base while handling whatever the game decides to throw our way? Reapers be damned.

Creative Mode, honestly, sounds EVEN MORE BORING THAN THE CURRENT SITUATION.

Then play in Freedom Mode. Better yet, request that Freedom Mode make collecting fragments easier and leave Survival Mode alone for those of us who want to earn what we get.

Автор сообщения: Sirus.exe

So, no, i'm not going to go run away to Creative Mode, when the flagship game mode, the game mode that most players, both old AND new, the game mode that ALL new players are inevitably going to pick, has a problem that makes it stodgy, tedious and boring.

Survival mode is not the "flagship game mode." All four modes share the core aspects of the game and allow you to experience them in different ways. Survival Mode is about surviving so it's got to be hard sometimes and - yes - sometimes tedious as well. Real life survival can be tedious, too. In Survival Mode the aim is to emulate that. Freedom Mode is supposed to be easier on players who don't want to "survive" so I don't know why you aren't requesting changes to that. You think catching food and getting fresh water all the time is tedious? Then don't play Survival Mode. Anyone who thinks they need to play Survival Mode when other less strenuous game modes are out there are only screwing themselves over. They should know better. Freedom Mode can be fun, too. Right now it is a mirror of Survival Mode without hunger and thirst meters. Just request that the fragments are easier to get. That's all.

Автор сообщения: Sirus.exe

I don't mind needing fragments to unlock blueprints. But the current placement for these things needs to be overhauled dramatically so that we can get the vital things(see: Multi-Purpose Room) very early on, and start hammering out a base sooner, rather than late-game.

Again, Creative Mode. That is what it is for. Building stuff.

Автор сообщения: Sirus.exe

3. Well, yeah. I don't think the fragments idea is flawed at it's core. It's just that this current iteration has problems that need a good hammering out.

See rest of post above.

EDIT: Changed the end tag for one of the quotes.

[slxpress]

I'm not sure I'm understanding all your points, Sirius.exe. Plus it sounds like you're starting to become unhinged.

Making a base is simple. Build a habitat tool. Build a corridor. Put a solar panel on it. Build a fabrication station. Done. If you need more in the beginning, build another corridor and/or L shape. It's not difficult.

The cyclops can hold an incredible amount of storage lockers. I'm not sure why this is a complaint. It can also hold an interior growbed. Stick a marblemelon plant in there, and presto! Food/dehydration solved for the rest of the game.

The only critical things the Cyclops can't build is a tool modification station and the vehicle modification station. But those have limited uses until they're not needed any more.

The seamoth is extremely easy to find. It's in a wreck by one of the abandoned lifepods you receive a signal for. So are both chargers.

The multipurpose room is on the floating island. I think a better clue could be attached for this, since the current one says a landmass has been detected 750m south, and in my play throughs it's southwest, but once you have a sense of where the island is, it's not hard to find.

During my playthrough without looking at the wiki, I'm coming to the conclusion it's actually not that difficult to find the necessary blueprints, and this is an about face from what I thought a week ago. It does take some time, and some gathering of materials, but it's not excessive.

[frogger]

Late game base lol, I suppose you actually use those retarded storage cubes?

[Zemecon]

Автор сообщения: frogger

Late game base lol, I suppose you actually use those retarded storage cubes?

The crates? Oh yeah. Lots of them. One or two for each type of ore.

[Sirus]

@Zemecton

1. You do realize there's no oxygen in an unpowered base, right? And no, that needs fragments. Solar Panel is no longer unlocked at start.

2. You have been, actually. Glad we're on the same page.

3. You need blueprints for the Power Cell Recharger, though.

4. Wrong. Beacons? Signs? There's still plenty of items that request copper wire. So, while Chargers do help, you still need a lot of copper.

5. I don't. I end up needing the Battery Charger before long, because the Seaglide's battery consumption can just go take a hike, in my honest opinion. Stupid energy hogging piece of junk.....still don't have lithium ion batteries.....and okay, let's just say that it's true. How many people are just going to decide that's not what they're interested in, and just quit the game, never to come back?

6. Nice strawman argument there, brother. Way to completely get it wrong. I'm not frustrated about the fact that I have to get fragments. I'm actually still not mad that it's in wrecks, even. The problem, is that barebones, vital blueprints are hidden in obscure areas, moving even a moderately decent base back to mid-game, or even late-game. I don't like to use the waterproof lockers because they always bug out, and are generally a big ball of annoyance to use.

I look through this thread, and I see plenty of people with the same opinion of me. It's not just me. I'll take your advice, if you'll follow your own advice.

7. Oh man, that's rich. Why don't I just go load up a few screenshots of Subnautica and not even bother playing?

Also, earn? EARN? What? This is supposed to be a game. Not a 9 to 5. The moment Subnautica feels more like work than play, that's when I just stop playing altogether. Currently, Subnautica is work, and not fun. Hence the OP.

It's work when I can't explore the Grassy Plateau without ten sandsharks chewing on my rear every few seconds, nevermind the Biters and Tiger Plants.

It's work when I have to plop down my thirtieth WP Locker, because the blueprints I need continue to evade me. Ones that I should have been able to find ages ago. And this is long after the fun of looking for blueprints has worn off entirely, curled up and died. I could go on, but I won't.

8. Actually, it is. It is, unless a Subnautica developer drops in and tells me otherwise....to my eyes, "Subnautica Default". I'm not arguing against Subnautica being difficult, stop misrepresenting my complaints and setting up a strawman argument. You need to stop doing that.

Well, yes. Of course. But no survival game worth their salt, would also emulate the massive amounts of time one spends alone, waiting for rescue that never arrives. At some point, the survival aspect needs to bend a bit so it can be a game that is fun. Instead of a CHORE.

Nope. Gathering food and water is far from tedious. I actually enjoyed that. Again, you can't stop misrepresenting me. In my eyes, the other modes are for when you want a different experience. I could see Freedom Mode being good for a new player who hasn't really done a lot of survival games before, and is having a hard time coming to grips with some of the survival elements unique to Subnautica(not hunger and thirst) and needs training wheels. For me, personally, i'd never be able to accept Freedom Mode as the main mode. It seems perfectly normal to have to manage hunger and thirst atop O2 and Health. Now, granted, that's just me. Maybe other people like having an easy mode.

9. Well, why don't we just remove the Habitat Builder from Survival Mode altogether then? You suggesting that would be like saying that you should never build a house in Minecraft Survival Mode. You seem to have a very strict opinion of which modes are for which people. But maybe, JUST MAYBE I want to build a halfway decent base, and have all the pressures that Survival mode brings, to make the job more complicated. Maybe I want my immersion, and my base building.

But I must just be one of those casual scrubs, huh? Screw me, right?

Lastly, those WP Lockers are buggy messes and need updating.

@sixpress

1. If it's going to be that simple, then there's really no point. It'd be cheaper to just plop down the WP lockers, even if they are buggy and awful. If I need air, I can just use pipes and surface for air. A base with no rooms, in my eyes, is just a hunk of reformed wreckage.

2. Have you forgotten about food poisoning? No. You need the full variety of edible flora to manage it properly without getting food poisoning. Marblemelon alone is insufficient. And my complaint is that you can only take it so far. I should know, i've pushed it to the limit on this last playthrough, and i'm STILL running out of room.

3. That's a very short-sighted view. No, you'll need those two things a lot in the late-game. Even hardened blades break eventually. And it's never impossible to lose the Seamoth or Prawn permanently.

4. Seamoth, yes. Power Cell Charger? No. It took me quite a while to get that one.

5. That's asking a bit much when you spend most of your time underwater, ainnit? I will agree that new players need more of a hint on it, though.

[Tellashim[GIF]]

Could mods change any of this back to what it was? Im new, and it seems to be more grinding than exploring. Kind of annoying.

[TheAlphaPigeon]

You guys? this is getting a bit long with the pages of arguing back and forth, if you want to continue the discussion maybe in a chat that would be nice

[Sirus]

Oh man, i'd love to see mod support.................

Sorry about the rant. I've already said my piece. I'll probably just shut up now.

[frogger]

Arguments lead to progress- well, sometimes.

We're at least arguing about game balance. That is pretty helpful for the devs, I would think.

[Zemecon]

Автор сообщения: Sirus.exe

Sorry about the rant. I've already said my piece. I'll probably just shut up now.

Gonna quote this just in case.

Автор сообщения: Sirus.exe

1. You do realize there's no oxygen in an unpowered base, right? And no, that needs fragments. Solar Panel is no longer unlocked at start.

I managed to get it in my most recent save without having to collect the blueprint for it so I am not sure what you are talking about.

Автор сообщения: Sirus.exe

2. You have been, actually. Glad we're on the same page.

I have been providing my opinion and requesting that a bunch of players who don't like working for anything in any game not ruin this one for me. If I wanted to start a campaign, I would do what the OP here has done.

Автор сообщения: Sirus.exe

3. You need blueprints for the Power Cell Recharger, though.

Yep. And I can get that without the Cyclops. So it isn't exactly unattainable for me. Which was my point.

Автор сообщения: Sirus.exe

4. Wrong. Beacons? Signs? There's still plenty of items that request copper wire. So, while Chargers do help, you still need a lot of copper.

True, but with the battery charger you don't need to worry about leaving those things out or sacrificing additional batteries. Copper is no longer as valuable as it used to be because now there is lots of it to go around. Like I said: Power Nap update. Game changer.

Автор сообщения: Sirus.exe

5. I don't. I end up needing the Battery Charger before long, because the Seaglide's battery consumption can just go take a hike, in my honest opinion. Stupid energy hogging piece of junk.....still don't have lithium ion batteries.....

You know you can put the battery charger inside your escape pod, right?

Автор сообщения: Sirus.exe

and okay, let's just say that it's true. How many people are just going to decide that's not what they're interested in, and just quit the game, never to come back?

Over finding a single battery charger blueprint? You are not even required to use it. It is just a hand-up that the game gives you. You do have to earn it but that's worth constantly needing to find copper.

And then there is Creative Mode. With all the pain Survival Mode is causing you, it might be worth a shot.

Автор сообщения: Sirus.exe

6. Nice strawman argument there, brother. Way to completely get it wrong. I'm not frustrated about the fact that I have to get fragments. I'm actually still not mad that it's in wrecks, even. The problem, is that barebones, vital blueprints are hidden in obscure areas, moving even a moderately decent base back to mid-game, or even late-game. I don't like to use the waterproof lockers because they always bug out, and are generally a big ball of annoyance to use.

It was no strawman. You really do seem like you are about to break down over there. Why not request that the fragments be easier to find in Freedom Mode somehow? Or, heck just cheat in the blueprints you want with the console commands if you want them so badly and save the easier blueprints to find on your own.

Автор сообщения: Sirus.exe

I look through this thread, and I see plenty of people with the same opinion of me. It's not just me. I'll take your advice, if you'll follow your own advice.

What advice? I told you to do a lot of the same things I am doing and that if you don't like it then play some other game mode or use console commands.

Автор сообщения: Sirus.exe

7. Oh man, that's rich. Why don't I just go load up a few screenshots of Subnautica and not even bother playing?

Also, earn? EARN? What? This is supposed to be a game. Not a 9 to 5. The moment Subnautica feels more like work than play, that's when I just stop playing altogether. Currently, Subnautica is work, and not fun. Hence the OP.

It's work when I can't explore the Grassy Plateau without ten sandsharks chewing on my rear every few seconds, nevermind the Biters and Tiger Plants.

It's work when I have to plop down my thirtieth WP Locker, because the blueprints I need continue to evade me. Ones that I should have been able to find ages ago. And this is long after the fun of looking for blueprints has worn off entirely, curled up and died. I could go on, but I won't.

I like to earn blueprints. I like to dodge dangerous creatures. And I don't mind making lockers. That is fun for me. That is what makes it a game for me. There are lots of ways to turn Subnautica back into a game for you without changing it for those of us who find it fun right now.

Автор сообщения: Sirus.exe

8. Actually, it is. It is, unless a Subnautica developer drops in and tells me otherwise....to my eyes, "Subnautica Default". I'm not arguing against Subnautica being difficult, stop misrepresenting my complaints and setting up a strawman argument. You need to stop doing that.

If you can't stop seeing Survival Mode as "Subnautica Default" then that is your problem. That shouldn't be an excuse to ruin the game for the rest of us.

Автор сообщения: Sirus.exe

Well, yes. Of course. But no survival game worth their salt, would also emulate the massive amounts of time one spends alone, waiting for rescue that never arrives. At some point, the survival aspect needs to bend a bit so it can be a game that is fun. Instead of a CHORE.

You mean make it easier? If you aren't good at the game then just get better. All games have a learning curve. Next time look into what you are supposed to do in a game before you buy it. You don't see me requesting the developers of Abzu to put torpedoes in their game, do you? No. Because I respect that what is supposed to be fun in that game is not for me. As I do for every other game. That's why I play Subnautica.

Автор сообщения: Sirus.exe

Nope. Gathering food and water is far from tedious. I actually enjoyed that. Again, you can't stop misrepresenting me. In my eyes, the other modes are for when you want a different experience. I could see Freedom Mode being good for a new player who hasn't really done a lot of survival games before, and is having a hard time coming to grips with some of the survival elements unique to Subnautica(not hunger and thirst) and needs training wheels. For me, personally, i'd never be able to accept Freedom Mode as the main mode. It seems perfectly normal to have to manage hunger and thirst atop O2 and Health. Now, granted, that's just me. Maybe other people like having an easy mode.

Freedom Mode isn't any less difficult than Survival Mode is. It just doesn't have hunger or thirst meters in it. If you want to consider Freedom Mode to be "kiddie Subnautica," then - again - that is your problem. I am not going to look at the four game modes as hierarchically as that but it really isn't worth changing an entire game if all you need to do is change a single game mode. Why not "Survival Sandbox" vs. "Survival Storymode?"

Автор сообщения: Sirus.exe

9. Well, why don't we just remove the Habitat Builder from Survival Mode altogether then? You suggesting that would be like saying that you should never build a house in Minecraft Survival Mode. You seem to have a very strict opinion of which modes are for which people. But maybe, JUST MAYBE I want to build a halfway decent base, and have all the pressures that Survival mode brings, to make the job more complicated. Maybe I want my immersion, and my base building.

And how would taking away the Habitat Builder prove anything about making blueprints more difficult to find? If a feature isn't in the game then it isn't in the game and I wouldn't buy it. So, again, I have no idea what you are getting at here.

Автор сообщения: Sirus.exe

But I must just be one of those casual scrubs, huh? Screw me, right?

If that is the way you want to see it.