Kernel Level Anti-cheat

[SecondLeaseGamer]

Jesus... I love Fromsoftware and was hype AF for a multiplayer game, but the only thing worse than Denuvo is Kernel Level Anti-cheat. Whats with devs being so lazy and poor at programming that they require the kernel level access to prevent cheater and hackers? This is gonna be a hard pass for me.

[Gotwing]

Originally posted by SecondLeaseGamer:

Jesus... I love Fromsoftware and was hype AF for a multiplayer game, but the only thing worse than Denuvo is Kernel Level Anti-cheat. Whats with devs being so lazy and poor at programming that they require the kernel level access to prevent cheater and hackers? This is gonna be a hard pass for me.

""only thing worse than Denuvo is Kernel Level Anti-cheat"

You do know that Denuvo anti-cheat works on Kernel level right? It can access your entire PC if it wants to.. w/o any kind of approval required from the user or windows.

So if you're fine with Denuvo's malware you shouldn't have a problem with Fromsoft's choice here.

[MLGrocket]

Originally posted by FIGBird:

@csand
First off, a couple of Discord servers is far from providing sources. If the information is there then you could link to the studies or whatever is being used as a basis for those arguments.

Secondly, I think you would have a much better time making your point if you didn't needlessly attack people in the defense of your opinion. Trying to attack linux users, game developers, anti cheat developers, and Valve is just doing you a disservice. It doesn't help that those kinds of statements also attack people doing a thankless job in the service of making everyone's experience better. I may not like kernel level anti cheats, but I am not going to attack the people that work hard to try and make those flawed systems work at all.

As I said, kernel level anti cheats are only good for blocking the lowest effort cheating. Regardless of whether it is on linux, windows, or whatever. The issue is the cost of that is at the risk of user security and privacy. To claim these block 99% of cheats is going to require a reputable source, however.

To the linux specific statements, how do you reconcile the fact that games like Valorant (which cannot be played on linux at all) are still plagued with cheaters? You're also ignoring fact that many EAC games do block linux and they also have cheaters.

As for the peer to peer statement. You're right, server side does not work if you do not have a server. However, you could also code the same kinds of server side solutions into the peer to peer networking so that if one player is cheating the others auto ban them from the session. In the case that all players are cheating, then let them go at it and not bother the rest of the world that wants to have fun without cheats. If that doesn't work due to some global system (such as the one in Helldivers 2) then you have a server and can do the anti cheat there in tandem to prevent cheated data from impacting your metagame. Again, expensive and custom I know, but way better than canned systems like EAC that are shown over and over again to be ineffective due to how much more rapidly cheat development happens.

As I said, the reason things like EAC exist is that its cheaper, and it often makes sense as a business strategy to rely on a dedicated library than it is to build it yourself. It's done all over the place in software because it makes sense. However, the whole argument I am making is that kernel level anti cheats do not work well enough to justify installing software that has complete control over the system presenting additional avenues of attack for malicious actors.

@MLGRocket
Here is an article that was written regarding a case where the Kernel level driver used in the Genshin Impact anti cheat was used to install randsomware on pcs.
https://www.pcgamer.com/ransomware-abuses-genshin-impacts-kernel-mode-anti-cheat-to-bypass-antivirus-protection/

They are a security risk because any holes in those code bases are now part of the system that has installed it. It's even worse when the driver remains installed and running after the games that use them are uninstalled because that system never gets updated and so a version with an exploit becomes an attack vector that is never updated.

You are right that it is more likely a person will be hit with social engineering or other means to gain access to their system. However, to state that it is the only way is going too far.

I also would point out that not all anti cheat systems are kernel level, its just that many of the commonly used solutions are. Which is ultimately why I have spent the time to try and provide some information and context as to why I believe we should move away from them.

thanks for giving me an article that proves my point. people downloaded things they shouldn't have downloaded.

[Shoah Kahn]

Often, the real reason that anti-cheat DRM is placed into a game, is to stop players short-cutting content; which is a surrogate acknowledgement of a dearth content in a product... Or, in NR's case, a rather grindy, repetitive gameplay loop that they fear most won't stick with if they can shortcut access to content.

So, my biggest fear with the A/C is that its presence is mostly to do with a lack of launch day content, and/or the intention to use that paucity of content to racketeer DLC. After all, the game is set at a lower price point that a full, "AAA" game, which immediately means that they know that what they are offering is not a full game... If I were a detective, that is the assumption I'd be working on, regarding the inclusion of such intrusive anti-cheat measures in a non-competitive, wholly co-operative game.🔎

[blujazz1780]

I'm confused, why do you need anti-cheat in a PVE game?

[cheep crybabby hatter]

Originally posted by blujazz1780:

I'm confused, why do you need anti-cheat in a PVE game?

Co-op games still involve the game state being affected by strangers online. It's not (just) about maintaining the veracity of wins, but it's also about making sure that people get the gameplay experience that they expect.

For example, if one person cheats and makes everyone's damage output insanely high, then that will spoil the experience for the other people. Or, people could just be jerks for the sake of it, spawning a bunch of high level enemies on a party of noobs.

Taking the competition out of it would relieve some of the frustration, but as long as one person can ruin the experience for everyone else, there is some value in making rules and enforcing them.

I absolutely detest anti-cheating software, but the reasons for their existence are undeniable.

[Zogtar]

Originally posted by Nyx:

snip

I see you're still confused about the proton exploit. He's not wrong or lying.

It's much easier to bypass eac and manipulate saves on elden ring due to the proton exploit. A similar exploit that APEX had...

*Want to call out that the argument has been mostly cordial and this isn't a windows better than linux convo and never was. Y'all are projecting stuff and need to stop with the "liar" accusations. Imagining that we're shilling for windows is the worst take and makes you lose all credibility on our end.

[1peppaspear03]

If this game had PVP i'd understand, but this is a cooperative ROUGE LITE game with no permanent item rewards, so even if you did coop with a cheater that cheats items onto you, all they could probably do is ruin a run, a game like this does not need KERNEL level anti cheat, won't be buying on that fact alone tbh

[csand]

Originally posted by 1peppaspear03:

If this game had PVP i'd understand, but this is a cooperative ROUGE LITE game with no permanent item rewards, so even if you did coop with a cheater that cheats items onto you, all they could probably do is ruin a run, a game like this does not need KERNEL level anti cheat, won't be buying on that fact alone tbh

You and your buddy and a random finally make it to the end boss after a few failed runs

The random hits a button and nukes it instantly, robbing you of any satisfaction of victory. That random also unlocks everything for you, sends your character flying through the map, and crashes your game, corrupting your save file and ruining any progression you had in store

"Why doesn't Fromsoft do anything about this?" you ask the computer screen