How to learn to be a Powerful battlemage

[Absolute_Dakka]

I posted a guide with some information, explanations, and screenshots that newer players should find useful in deciphering the game systems and learning how to experiment to get the most out of the crafting system and spell combos:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1612778328

[warrax40]

this is incredibly fantastic.
Fully endorsed.

Chapter: "The Good Stuff - Apocalypticals and Sigil Powers"
Is wonderfully explained and is often missed or completely misunderstood even by players that have completed the game.

[Absolute_Dakka]

Originally posted by warrax40:

this is incredibly fantastic.
Fully endorsed.

Chapter: "The Good Stuff - Apocalypticals and Sigil Powers"
Is wonderfully explained and is often missed or completely misunderstood even by players that have completed the game.

Thanks for this generous feedback, sir. I am humbled.

[warrax40]

After our discord chat, how has your experimentation going?

[Absolute_Dakka]

Better, thanks. I have been able to put together 75% of the spell designs I had cooked up. Sadly, some of the rays and pool concepts flopped miserably... but the Phase Control Ray was a smashing success. Your advice about Area Destruction spells beating out Missile destruction spells was also correct, there does seem to be a x2 multiplier. Maybe is because the dragon uses both hands for the AoE? (I have no idea lol)

I also managed to upgrade a few of my 80% apoc spells to finally be 100%, so I don't have those infrequent but annoying instances where like 5 or 6 casts in a row fail to apoc :)

Next on the experiment list is Corruption.

[Absolute_Dakka]

Oh, also... since it came up in the thread with atavist, I also finally found the ideal place for Phase Control's "spell storing" Distortion Teleport . See, my Phase Nova is a 100% apocalyptical, so usually, if I stack matery and hit with the nova it kills. I have run into a few bosses that have taken the 200k+ with a smile. Worse, if I use my Phase control ray, then stack mastery, and then pop my nova, it would do lots of damage but still teleport them... and since that one hit doesn't kill them, their health would reset. So finally I have encountered a scenario where I actually *need* to store a few apocalyptical hits from Kinesis Destruction before triggering the teleport. When those ticked, KABOOM! Worked like a charm :)

[Eden]

Originally posted by Lomax:

Your advice about Area Destruction spells beating out Missile destruction spells was also correct, there does seem to be a x2 multiplier. Maybe is because the dragon uses both hands for the AoE? (I have no idea lol)

IIRC this depends on the Sigil. The ratio is 2 for Corruption, 1.3 for Ice and 1.5 for the others, I believe. The AoE shape also has double the charge time of the targeted shape. Technically, the latter therefore deals higher single-target dps (assuming cast time <1s), but that is not a particularly interesting measure in a world in which mobs should die in a single hit.

[warrax40]

Originally posted by Lomax:

Better, thanks. I have been able to put together 75% of the spell designs I had cooked up. Sadly, some of the rays and pool concepts flopped miserably... but the Phase Control Ray was a smashing success. Your advice about Area Destruction spells beating out Missile destruction spells was also correct, there does seem to be a x2 multiplier. Maybe is because the dragon uses both hands for the AoE? (I have no idea lol)

I also managed to upgrade a few of my 80% apoc spells to finally be 100%, so I don't have those infrequent but annoying instances where like 5 or 6 casts in a row fail to apoc :)

Next on the experiment list is Corruption.

Yeah on the ray and pool thing. Lichdom is unbalanced when you push the numbers as far as they can go. When you are dealing with 100% crit or 100% APOC or cast speeds of 400% . you quickly discover that the rays and pools just have too low base damage and tick too slowly.

Aside from the GOD level APOC which is delirium, I rather like the Kinesis, phase and Necro apoc

[Absolute_Dakka]

Originally posted by warrax40:

Originally posted by Lomax:

Better, thanks. I have been able to put together 75% of the spell designs I had cooked up. Sadly, some of the rays and pool concepts flopped miserably... but the Phase Control Ray was a smashing success. Your advice about Area Destruction spells beating out Missile destruction spells was also correct, there does seem to be a x2 multiplier. Maybe is because the dragon uses both hands for the AoE? (I have no idea lol)

I also managed to upgrade a few of my 80% apoc spells to finally be 100%, so I don't have those infrequent but annoying instances where like 5 or 6 casts in a row fail to apoc :)

Next on the experiment list is Corruption.

Yeah on the ray and pool thing. Lichdom is unbalanced when you push the numbers as far as they can go. When you are dealing with 100% crit or 100% APOC or cast speeds of 400% . you quickly discover that the rays and pools just have too low base damage and tick too slowly.

Aside from the GOD level APOC which is delirium, I rather like the Kinesis, phase and Necro apoc

I haven't crafted spells with 400% cast speed, but I can say that my 100% crit Phase Control ray works amazingly well.

In specific, the Ray that flopped was my 100% APOC Kinesis ray. I assumed after charging up it would start dishing out repeating APOC hits, which it does not do.

The Pool that flopped was my 100% APOC Kinesis DE pool. It APOCs as desired, but the push effect is apparently able to move targets that are under Phase Control's distortion field... so the pool just pushed the targets away and then it wasn't able to hit them anymore... so no additional damage ticks would be added to my distortion teleport. This I found to be very wierd, because Kinesis Destruction Missiles and Rays have the same push effect, but are not able to move targets under the effect of Phase Control.

I will eventually try it again with a Fire DE pool for fun.

[Eden]

Originally posted by Lomax:

The Pool that flopped was my 100% APOC Kinesis DE pool. It APOCs as desired, but the push effect is apparently able to move targets that are under Phase Control's distortion field... so the pool just pushed the targets away and then it wasn't able to hit them anymore... so no additional damage ticks would be added to my distortion teleport. This I found to be very wierd, because Kinesis Destruction Missiles and Rays have the same push effect, but are not able to move targets under the effect of Phase Control..

This is what we went over in the other thread. Pools are (presumably) glitched in that they (at least partially) affect targets through Phase CO despite also counting as "stored effects".

[Absolute_Dakka]

Originally posted by Atavist:

Originally posted by Lomax:

The Pool that flopped was my 100% APOC Kinesis DE pool. It APOCs as desired, but the push effect is apparently able to move targets that are under Phase Control's distortion field... so the pool just pushed the targets away and then it wasn't able to hit them anymore... so no additional damage ticks would be added to my distortion teleport. This I found to be very wierd, because Kinesis Destruction Missiles and Rays have the same push effect, but are not able to move targets under the effect of Phase Control..

This is what we went over in the other thread. Pools are (presumably) glitched in that they affect targets through Phase CO despite also counting as "stored effects".

I could see how that conclusion is reasonable.

My suspicion about pools and targets under the effects of Phase Control prior to this was that only the Mastery effects took place immediately, but they and all other hits from spells counted as 'stored' except Phase Destruction which triggers the teleport.

I think all the hits from other spells should count as stored effects for the purposes of consuming ticks in the distortion teleport.

The push effect of the Kinesis Destruction pool is the only spell effect besides mastery which I have seen have direct immediate effect on a Phase Controlled target. I do not personally consider mastery applying its effects immediately to be a glitch, but the kinesis pool pushing them I do consider a glitch because the other shapes of Kinesis destruction also have that characteristic and it does not behave the same way.

I will have to check if other sigil's pool shaped effects are also applying through Phase Control so see if your conclusion holds true for all pools.

[Eden]

In my (admittedly limited) experience, non-damaging effects from pools apply independently of the distortion field mechanic. That covers Mastery as well as spells that mark a target for a particular effect on death (e.g. Necromancy or Corruption).

I consider this unintended behaviour simply because there's no discernible reason why pools should affect enemies under Phase CO in this duplicated fashion. Not that this matters in any way given that development stopped a long time ago.

[Absolute_Dakka]

Maybe I am misunderstanding what you mean by "duplicated"...

As far as I can tell, the spell effects of a particular tick do not happen twice.... it seems the effect in some cases simply apply immediately instead of during the spell hit's associated distortion teleport tick. The tick happens regardless, but if the effect was applied prior, then the tick is just 'empty'.

I can see reasons why this would be intended, so that mechanics like necromancy tags, mastery, or corruption tags would not have the possibility of being completely lost - only the associated damage if any. It would seem a reasonable compromise to apply these things immediately so as to not make Phase CO even more incompatible with other sigils.

[Eden]

It's rather hard to know whether the effects really happen twice. What I mean by duplicated is that the effect of a single pool tick applies immediately while also taking up a stored spell slot. That's obviously inconsistent.

Originally posted by Lomax:

I can see reasons why this would be intended, so that mechanics like necromancy tags, mastery, or corruption tags would not have the possibility of being completely lost - only the associated damage if any. It would seem a reasonable compromise to apply these things immediately so as to not make Phase CO even more incompatible with other sigils.

That explanation does not account for the observable difference between pools and all other shapes. If a mob in Phase CO is hit by, say, a missile spell any associated tags (and/or Mastery) can indeed be completely lost if the effects stored in the distortion are never triggered (or fail to kill). Why should pool out of all shapes be different?

[Absolute_Dakka]

Originally posted by Atavist:

It's rather hard to know whether the effects really happen twice. What I mean by duplicated is that the effect of a single pool tick applies immediately while also taking up a stored spell slot. That's obviously inconsistent.

I makes more sense if one thinks of it as just keeping the time of the effect being applied to immediate rather than shifting it to be delayed it until the appropriate teleport tick.

In other words, the effect only happens once, and while some effects are not applied until their relevant tick in the teleport, there are exceptions that apply immediately - but still have a teleport tick assigned.

In all cases, spell hits take up a tick in the teleport until all 'tick slots' in the teleport are accounted for.

So while the timing of the application of effects is not consistent, the spell hits getting a teleport tick (while unassigned teleport tick slots remain) is consistent.

Originally posted by Lomax:

I can see reasons why this would be intended, so that mechanics like necromancy tags, mastery, or corruption tags would not have the possibility of being completely lost - only the associated damage if any. It would seem a reasonable compromise to apply these things immediately so as to not make Phase CO even more incompatible with other sigils.

Originally posted by Atavist:

That explanation does not account for the observable difference between pools and all other shapes. If a mob in Phase CO is hit by, say, a missile spell any associated tags (and/or Mastery) can indeed be completely lost if the effects stored in the distortion are never triggered (or fail to kill). Why should pool out of all shapes be different?

I am sure that you'll have no trouble believing it, but feel free to experiment yourself - it's actually even wierder than that.

Target in Phase Control.

Hit it with a Delirium Mastery Ray. No immediate effect.
Hit it with a Kinesis Mastery Ray. No immediate effect.
In both of these cases, even after triggering the teleport, while the mastery aura graphic appeared at the desintation while the teleport was active, as soon as the target materialized, all the mastery was gone, so it reverted just like health when the target doesn't die in the teleport.

Hit it with a Phase Mastery Ray. Mastery applied to the target immediately.

So yeah, its not just pools (but they are perhaps the most obvious example), but its also rays from Phase, but apparently not other sigils.

[Eden]

Originally posted by Lomax:

I makes more sense if one thinks of it as just keeping the time of the effect being applied to immediate rather than shifting it to be delayed it until the appropriate teleport tick.

In other words, the effect only happens once, and while some effects are not applied until their relevant tick in the teleport, there are exceptions that apply immediately - but still have a teleport tick assigned.

In all cases, spell hits take up a tick in the teleport until all 'tick slots' in the teleport are accounted for.

So while the timing of the application of effects is not consistent, the spell hits getting a teleport tick (while unassigned teleport tick slots remain) is consistent.

I'm not sure this succeeds in restoring consistency to the mechanics of Phase CO. It isn't enough to say that each stored effect takes its slot in an orderly fashion and then some happen immediately and some when it's their turn during teleportation, depending on the nature of each effect. Teleportation is a contingency: the dinstinction between an effect that happens immediately (and therefore certainly) and one that only happens if the corresponding slot resolves (and therefore perhaps never) is a fundamental and not an accidental one. In other words, it's the kind of distinction that requires an intelligible design reason and I don't see one.

Originally posted by Lomax:

I am sure that you'll have no trouble believing it, but feel free to experiment yourself - it's actually even wierder than that.

Target in Phase Control.

Hit it with a Delirium Mastery Ray. No immediate effect.
Hit it with a Kinesis Mastery Ray. No immediate effect.
In both of these cases, even after triggering the teleport, while the mastery aura graphic appeared at the desintation while the teleport was active, as soon as the target materialized, all the mastery was gone, so it reverted just like health when the target doesn't die in the teleport.

Hit it with a Phase Mastery Ray. Mastery applied to the target immediately.

So yeah, its not just pools (but they are perhaps the most obvious example), but its also rays from Phase, but apparently not other sigils.

That is indeed bizarre. If it were just Phase MA rays and pools that pierced Phase CO, I might just be tempted to think that's intended. As it is, I suspect this isn't the only weirdness that lurks in the game's code. Phase wasn't available in early access (if I remember rightly), so it stands to reason that it was tested less thoroughly than other Sigils.

Whatever may be the matter with Phase, you've done a lot of thorough testing and I hope new players (that seem to trickle in every time there's a sale) find their way here before giving up at the first boss.