WTF is up with the water boss level pacing

[Lindion45]

Everything leading up to it was easy. Slow pace, puzzles and riddles, clearing enemies to remove the corruption. Then all of a sudden!! Literally out of nowhere, comes this level of absolute rageworthy hell.

• You're not allowed to save, and there are no checkpoints.
  
• The water level doesn't go lower than the bottom of the screen, effectively punishing you for progressing quickly.
  
• You're 100% dependent on enemy projectiles to jump, yet sometimes they just don't shoot, causing some super unfair deaths.
  
• You don't immediately die in the water, yet springs become inactive after submersion.

Why? I literally spent over an hour on this one level, and it really felt like artificial difficulty?

When the owl showed up at the end, I got super worried that I was about to take something even harder. Luckily not.

[Groen90]

At that point the game was like
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=539146613

[Xryleth]

A few things to consider:

1: Considering that this being the equivalent of a boss fight for Ori is accurate, as Ori is a mobility oriented being rather than a fighter, it's most appropriate to give a challenge that requires mobility. With that in mind, would you expect the ability to save mid boss fight in most other games? Especially given the very forgiving nature of Ori's almost save-state type system, it would be inappropriate.

2: Enemies shoot based on proximity, and aim based off of your positioning. Most enemies shoot simply due to Ori being in a certain rnage of them(spiders for example), but as you may have learned in the Thornfelt Swamp outside, the slug monsters hide if you get too close. If you are having difficulty getting them to shoot, remember to get close enough for them to trigger, and then stop moving for a moment, and they WILL attack.

3: As for the last bit about the water, the springs are never truly necessary if I recall correctly, they make it much easier and smoother, but if you are already getting caught by the water then a smooth escape is already out of the question. If you do end up having the water catch up to you due to falling down or the like, you're almost always going to have to wall jump quickly to make up lost distance. As for the concept of it punishing you for progressing quickly, It's more accurate to say it punishes you for failing a pace YOU set, the escape sequence is rather forgiving in that you can go at a fairly slow pace if you wish, but if you intend to go quickly then you need to recognize that you are increasing your risk by doing so.

The thing is, it is a jump in difficulty, and it's meant to be, because it is essentially the first boss of the game. There WILL be other sequences similar to this, though very different mechanically, and none of them can really be called unfair. Of them, only the last one needs to actually be done quickly, all the others you can mostly go at your own pace, so if it's proving too difficult, just consider slowing down.

[Melodia]

To be fair, I've certainly seen games where there's a 'checkpoint' in the middle of a boss battle -- Guacamelee! has a couple for instance (though you still have to go through the first phase again if you actually quit)

Other than that, I do agree with all the above. Normally I hate such difficulty bumps but somehow in Ori it just /works/ and actually finishing it up was one of the most satisfying moments I've EVER had in my gaming life.

[Disgraciau]

I only found it difficult when I wanted to pick up every single item from the escape sequence. It's an intense moment, yes, but it's not THAT difficult the people say. I think Bash is an ability very easy to master.

[randomizer]

The sequence isn't long enough for a checkpoint to make sense. It only feels long because you have to retry it so many times. The rubber banding water is a bit immersion-breaking and there are probably other ways that could have been tackled. I think increasing the rate at which the water rises but keeping it constant would have been better. It rewards speed and punishes mistakes, which is exactly what you'd expect.

[Lindion45]

Originally posted by Xryleth:

1: Considering that this being the equivalent of a boss fight for Ori is accurate, as Ori is a mobility oriented being rather than a fighter, it's most appropriate to give a challenge that requires mobility.

This doesn't have anything to do with the difficulty spike though. For instance, I counted 3 boss fights previously. There were two rooms which actually locked me in while I killed something with lots of health (one right before the tree level), and also the landslide level, which A. had save points enabled, and B. was really easy. It, as you said required mobility, yet somehow was nowhere near the same difficulty. Maybe to do with the lack of time pressure.

would you expect the ability to save mid boss fight in most other games? Especially given the very forgiving nature of Ori's almost save-state type system, it would be inappropriate.

As Melodia says, yeah! I would expect like, maybe 1 checkpoint half way through? And I was trying for every single collectible, which probably didn't help. I ended up missing one as well. Can I go through and get it without the water this time around?

Also, why not just make it so you could only save in certain places, rather than not at all. Like "You cannot save on even ground", or "you cannot save near enemies". That way it would encourage you to waste time killing enemies, so you could place a savepoint.

2: Enemies shoot based on proximity, and aim based off of your positioning. Most enemies shoot simply due to Ori being in a certain rnage of them(spiders for example), but as you may have learned in the Thornfelt Swamp outside, the slug monsters hide if you get too close. If you are having difficulty getting them to shoot, remember to get close enough for them to trigger, and then stop moving for a moment, and they WILL attack.

The thing is, I can stand perfectly still, and they still sometimes just go "nah, not now" and hide again. There's this point where there's a cliff, with one of the purple ground mouth things at the top. You have to stand and wait 3 seconds for him to get ready to shoot at you, and sometimes he simply does not.

3: As for the last bit about the water, the springs are never truly necessary if I recall correctly, they make it much easier and smoother, but if you are already getting caught by the water then a smooth escape is already out of the question.

I believe they were necessary, and if they aren't, maybe that's the core problem of why I found it so hard. But from what I recall, most of the walls had spiky things on and couldn't simply be vaulted.

It's more accurate to say it punishes you for failing a pace YOU set, the escape sequence is rather forgiving in that you can go at a fairly slow pace if you wish

Sure, it's forgiving in that I can stop time for 2 seconds while I choose a direction to power jump in, but I didn't even realize that at first, because the water animation doesn't stop or slow down (but eventually I realized that the water was stationary). I still think it would be better if the water could rise at a given pace, rather than what it does atm.

The thing is, it is a jump in difficulty, and it's meant to be, because it is essentially the first boss of the game.

It certainly isn't! I counted 3 as I said. There's a boss right before you clear the corruption, not to mention the landslide level.

There WILL be other sequences similar to this

Oh great >.>

Originally posted by Melodia:

Normally I hate such difficulty bumps but somehow in Ori it just /works/ and actually finishing it up was one of the most satisfying moments I've EVER had in my gaming life.

To be honest, I was more angry about the difficulty, than satisfied I'd completed it. But I did like the storyline surprise afterwards.

By the way, why did Ori free the spider man before taking the light crystal back? Surely that was just asking for trouble?

[Xryleth]

First, on the definition of a boss fight, besides the fact that Ori is defined by escape sequences as a replacement to boss fights, I'm going to quickly explain those other events. The fights against the jumping worm, spitting worm, and purple energy thing were at best minibosses, they function in a similar manner to Zelda games where in a dungeon they make lock you in to fight some tougher enemies before letting you have an important item or progress, but are clearly not placed at the end of the dungeon and do not actually feel like boss fights. The donkey kong-esque section previously where you could save was the game's first introduction to this concept of needing to platform in a tense situation, the reason why you could save there has more to do with a lack of a true time constraint, there isn't for example a large rock about to crush Gumo, nor is there flood water. There will be another occasion like this much later in the game where you have a lesser escape as well, but you will not be able to save during it for obvious reasons, and it's so short that saving would be almost pointless.

As for the collectibles, aiming for them does increase the difficulty yeah, kind of furthering what I stated before that when it comes to that escape sequence, you kind of set your own difficulty. Those light orbs you went for ARE missable, however they do not count towards any completion or achievements. What was missable completion-wise, was a single energy upgrade, the map data itself from the lower parts of the tree(as map data is your completion percentage, not items), and a couple spots hidden that count for the "find all secrets" achievement(Which you're not realistically getting until a future playthrough anyway). You are unable to re-enter the tree, nor will you be able to re-enter the next dungeon or leave the final one, so you'll need to make sure you get everything you can prior to taking those steps. That's about the only point against the game I'll agree with, being locke dout of areas permanently kind of sucks in a game with missable stuff, and it's something that might to a degree be adressed when they make the definitive edition.

The reason for not being able to save is partially to set a precedent, as you will not be able to save during the other escape sequences either. It's a rather immersion breaking thing, and as all of them are very short, taking a minute or less on a successful attempt, they're clearly designed to be a short, but notable challenge. Perhaps it's not for everyone, but considering the rest of the game allows you to entirely go at your own pace, that makes the game's greatest challenges most appropriately a break from that.

Going back to the purple slug enemy, that specific enemy is one You've had to deal with back in both the swamp outside, and while climbing the tree, and while outside they did not put you in specific positions to observe how it reacts so much, in the tree they force you to work with them. At that point you should have probably noticed that they hide if Ori is not close enough, or moves too close, with a slight delay on it. That means any time you tried to move forward and had it hide again, you had probably continued to inch too close while preparing to make your Bash. For future reference, the idea behind them is to stop moving as soon as they pop out, if you do that they will stay and shoot at you every time. I will say forcing you to use one of those during the sequence when new players may not understand how they work very well yet may not have been the best idea, but I'm at least trying to explain that they did try to show you how it works, and that it is a consistent behaviour.

Looking at a video, it seems at one of the springs you need to either make a good bash off of a worm projectile or hit the spring to climb, but otherwise they appear to be avoidable. There was a video at one point I saw of someone showing that you could escape very slowly if you wanted and be fine, but as I can't find that I'll show you this one, which also may better visually explain the worm enemy behaviour: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bY5KnLdGH84

As for your pace versus the water pace, and the idea of the water rising at a set pace being a thing instead, I think they didn't go that route precisely because they knew that having it this way should make it more accessable to more players than having a set pace. If it was a set pace, it would either be slow enough that good platformer players wouldn't feel much of any tension at all(and so miss out on one of the points of it), or be fast enough that some players may simply find it impossible altogether. Having it match your pace at least means that it can slow down to accomadate slower players, and speed up to still excite faster players at the same time.

To be clear, if it's not obvious you can expect an escape sequence whenever you restore an element, and the escape will relate to that element. That also means that none of them feature the exact same gamplay, you will never again need to platform quickly upwards to escape something, the others will feature a different focus. The next one will be very different, you might even find it relaxing, but the last one will have a fixed time limit rather than rubber banding one like you saw in the Ginso tree, so you'll need to be ready by then.

That last bit about Gumo(the spider), the game kind of explains it but the concept is that Ori was raised by Naru to be kind, even in her last moments she still put Ori's well being above her own and that carries over to how Ori treats others. And since you've cleared the Ginso Tree escape, you should see that already payed off.

[Ron]

I agree with OP. Brick wall difficulty curve = I'm done.

[Groen90]

ayyyyyyyyyy that 2 year necro though

[Zubi Fett]

I agree, it feels random and not skilled base. I'm finding that the shots can sometimes not show up as well as the wacky controls for the jump platforms being an issue.