My thoughts on the Ginso Tree Difficulty.

[Mr Chappy]

This subject has seen quite a lot of discussion here and after reading quite a few of them I'm a little bit apprehensive about posting this... However in all the discussions that I have read I've not seen this point mentioned at all.

My point is that the difficulty of this section is not a set thing. Ori is a character that improves through the unlocking of various abilities. One person could arrive at the Ginzo tree escape without the “Ultra Bash” ability unlocked and with only the minimum of Life Cells(as I did), another person may arrive at it with “Ultra Bash” and “Life Efficiency”(again I did not have this) and more Life Cells. The end result is that some people will have an easier escape run than others and that an individual players skill is not the only variable at play in the difficulty setting of this section. Meaning that in some ways everyone is right about it...

In Metroid when you hit a sticking point, normally in the form of one of the many guardians, the last save point is prior to the encounter. This means that if you find it too tough you can simply walk away, explore the world, build Samus up via the discovery of some more energy cells and weapon upgrades, then return to the guardian and succeed with relative ease.

If the auto save for the Ginzo tree placed you back, upon death, to just before the small scene that triggers the rising water then any player struggling with the escape would have the option to exit the tree, level up Ori, and then return in much the same way as you can in Metroid. The small scene that leads to the escape would need to be skip-able(after the first viewing) to avoid it becoming an annoyance.

I see this possible change as offering a solution to those who have struggled(possibly through no fault of their own or for lack of skill) without changing in any way a section of the game that so many love just the way it is...

What do you think?

[Ragenti]

When the escape level starts u automatically regenerate all ur life. Levelling up wont be a big help, u simply have to jump up there, only more live cells might help, but since its mostly the water that kills u that wont make a big difference too because once ur in there ur death 90% of the time. For my opinion the ginso tree escape was one of the funniest parts in the game and just going through without picking up the soul balls shouldnt be a problem.

[Xryleth]

Given the full restore prior to the escape as Ragenti mentioned, unless the player is running low% on Life Cells(like literally not having any more than the default 3), there is little that you can fidn that actually makes it any easier. Damage is not what will kill you in the Ginso Tree, and ability upgrades like the Ultra Bash you mentioned don't do anything to help either as it's just a damage upgrade. Even a player that has obtained Triple Jump by that point won't have much of an advantage, as most of the escape is wlal jumping and bashing, things that extra jumps do not really assist with.

The key difference between Ori and Metroid, is Metroid's difficulty often comes from attrition. Lots of environmental and enemy damage that adds up, where health upgrades could allow you to last longer, or weapon/ammo upgrades can help you blast enemies away before they become a threat. These are things that are hardly factors at all in the escape sequences of Ori, and are only relevant throughout normal gameplay. Instead, the Ginso escape has a more or less set difficulty(Ori's speed), with the ability to slow down and make it easier. So instead of going back to get meaningless upgrades, the game simply gives you the choice to slow down if you need to.

Either way, the difficulty of the escape is perfectly justifiable given the practice with bash and wall jumping you have had in the tree up to that point, it's simply the culmination of that practice. Players who struggle dthroughout the slower portions will struggle in the escape, which is why you're given enough things to practice those mechanics with first, to try to ensure the player will be capable of continuing the game past that point.

[Mr Chappy]

Hi again.

The Ultra Bash is not just a damage upgrade, it allows you to bash through enemies, and there were several enemies(two hoppers at the start, one of the worms which could on a rare run also block my way, and the spider near the end) where I ended up on slightly the wrong side of them, hit them when trying to use them to bash off and lost both my momentum and health resulting in a restart...

It is the only part of the game that I found difficult at all, probably took around 30-40 attempts. After that I found the the rest of the game to be very easy with the other three escape sequences being a good normal average challenge, each taking around ten attempts.

I'm far from being a novice to platform games or games in general, though I am nearly forty so maybe this one section highlights the limitations of my age in a way that the rest of the game does not?

I don't mind sections like this, I've played many games that are consistently much more demanding over the years. It is just odd that peoples experiences of this part of the game are so drastically contrasting...

Would either of you find being given the option to retreat out of the tree as described above to be acceptable? At the very least a player could take a break and explore a bit whilst gaining a bit more experience and skill with Ori's techniques...?

[Chocoloco]

All relevant abilities for this scene are given to you during your playthrough and are not part of the skilltree, therefor your argument is irrelevant.

However, I agree that it would have been a more player friendly decision to let the player walk away from the scene if he doesn't seem fit to handle it and let him explore the world further.

[Xryleth]

I'm aware that Ultra Bash states that it allows you to Bash through enemies, but I believe that is a text error, possibly from an earlier development stage. As far as I've been able to tell, there is zero difference between using Bash and Ultra Bash besides damage, both allow you to go through enemies just fine.

To be blunt, I'm not sure if I can even appreciate what it is people seem to find so difficult about the Ginso Tree escape, and I have never seen someone struggle with it in a video the way people describe. Besides your "30-40" attempts, I've seen several people here talk about dying over 50 times, being stuck on it for days, from the sounds of it some people are hitting a brick wall in the game that I've only heard of, never seen. My first time playing, it took me at most 7 or 8 tries, this isn't to say that I had no difficulty with the game at all(I think I died nearly 400 times over the course of the entire first run), but the Ginso Escape was not the struggle for me that other people experience.

My own experience, and what I've seen of other people's playthroughs is as I've stated. The tree prepares you for the escape by teaching you to use Bash effectively, and honestly Gumo's Hideout prepares you quite well for the wall jumping too. It felt like a fairly natural transition for me from doing what i was already doing to attempting the escape, and I feel like most of my early deaths were due to the intensity of the moment. From what I've heard, that scene is a very polarizing moment, while some struggle and hate it, for others it is one of, if not the most enjoyable memory of the game, and that's how it was for me. That was the point where I felt like I'd truly made the right choice in getting the game, and that it stacked up against the Metroid games I so enjoy.

Anyway, experiences aside, my original point stands. I don't think there's much a player can do to get an advantage on the escape sequences, no amount of Spirit Light or Life Cells are really going to make the difference if the player can't follow through with the bashing and wlal jumping the game demands from them. Being able to leave would not affect experienced players, but even for inexperienced players I see it granting no benefit, instead possibly tarnishing any enjoyment they've had in the Ginso Tree up to that point by having them retread all the way back up.

[Mr Chappy]

Ha, getting stuck on it for days has to be an exaggeration on their part...surly???

I took a break after my first 20-30 attempts, had a cup of tea, then made it through ok-ish when I went back.

It is a shame that a few people say they gave up at this point, they have missed out on one of the best Metroid type games that I've come across in recent years.

Anyway I'm really looking forward to the Definitive Edition, I like all of the confirmed changes so far :)

[Mr Chappy]

I suppose all of the other game mechanics apart from bash were ones that I was very familiar with from other games. Maybe this one new technique took me a while to get the hang of properly now that I am getting on a bit!

[Th3rdSun]

Here's my thing. I'm at an age now that if I'm having a really hard time trying to pass a level like The Ginso Tree in a game like this.I'll try for a bit,and then when it's more frustrating than fun,I'll put walk away and try again later.When it becomes frustrating a second time as it has for me now,I'll turn off the game and likely NEVER play it again.They really should've had an option that you can actually create a bigger gap from the rising water without it instatly catching up to you

This challenge is a very stupid game design choice from the devs( I hate levels like this,timed levels,and escort missions) without having the opportunity to actually go back for a while and explore.My only options now are to keep up the frustration or start from the beginning of the entire game?!Screw you devs!

Sorry,but I just don't have enough time in my life to feel this frustrated over a game anymore. Everything leading to this point of the game is pure beauty,but not every one wants to try the same thing over and over again to the point of slamming down the controller.

Like I said,I'll likely never play this game again,and never play another game from this developer out of general principle which is a shame because I was really enjoying it until this point.

[Mr Chappy]

Hi Th3rd Sun.

I take it you would like my idea of being able to backtrack from an auto save point placed just before this sequence activates rather than after it, even if it does make no difference to how this section plays?

[Ext3h]

I'll say it as it is, in the end, after dying way beyond 50 times, I could only beat that specific level by using a classic speed hack.

At 50% speed, the level becomes suddenly quite easy, but at regular speed, I always failed at the final chasm after the spider. Mostly since the water occluded the sight, so I couldn't make out where my character was, so I kept missing the laterns.

If it wasn't for the water partially obstructing the visuals during the later phases, this level would actually have been a lot easier. The jump and bash sequences themselves aren't so difficult at all, you can learn them within a dozen trys at top, but your character blending in with the water is just terrible design.

This is also true for the first squid projectile, the water sometimes occludes the sight slightly to early.

[Maru]

Finished game 51 times xD Ginso tree is my favorite part. It is actually easy, I finished it without any extra life/energy cells and without any upgrades (To get achivements). Try more :D

[Mr Chappy]

Fifty one times, wow!!! Don't think I've ever played through any individual game of this type more than three times(Metroid Prime, GC).

Not sure how many times I've played through Super Mario World on the SNES, that has to be one of my highest, used to be able to do all 96 stages in under three hours. Friends used to bring their copy round for me to unlock, love that game :)

I don't count shoot'em'ups as repetition is part and parcel of getting up the leader boards.

[Hex]

The Ginso Tree escape is my favourite segment in OatBF. I LOOOVE the music (currently looping an extended version in the background. In terms of difficulty, I found it rather doable. On my first playthrough, which was a 100% playthrough I did die like 15 times, but that was mostly because I wanted to get every Soul Light Container. On my second playthrough (I was recording an Achievement Guide/Walkthrough) I managed to do it on the second try. And in my third playthrough (Supersonic/Elite) I did it on the first try. It's really easy once you get used to Bash.

[Ragenti]

Originally posted by VenomExyz:

Finished game 51 times xD Ginso tree is my favorite part. It is actually easy, I finished it without any extra life/energy cells and without any upgrades (To get achivements). Try more :D

it says u played it for 21h and u rly finished it 51 times? thats rly hard to believe^^

[Mr Chappy]

Maybe they have it on the XBox as well, though I don't know why anyone would buy a game of this type twice over two machines. I do know a guy who has Geometry Wars 3 on PC and XBox but that is different as the leader boards are separate for each version...???