opinion: all the weapons on this game deal far too much damage

[egg]

TL;DR why are weapon dmg values so out of balance

INB4 "its EA, balance not important" - give me a couple evenings with a simple tool like Morgh's WB/WFAS text editor and i could fix this ♥♥♥♥ easily and the game would be way more enjoyable

one handed maces one-shot kill every troop, 2h weapons one-shot everything, polearms oneshot everything, the higher tier 1h swords/axes one-shot >almost< everything

and when i mean everything i mean it, legionnaries, elite cataphracts etc. the best troops with 55head/70body armour. even around an average 100-150 weapon skill you will see like 130dmg from a 1h mace, 150-250 from a 2h and like 400dmg from most polearms

1H cataphract mace has 79 blunt, core damage rivalling the best swords in the game. the whole point of maces was low core damage (to make not as effective as sword slices on skin / light armour), but it made up for that low damage by having the armour piercing blunt damage that is great at dealing with heavy armour. different weapons for different situations or strengths/weaknesses... 79B on a mace is ridiculous and un-necessary. if you are 1H char, why would you use anything other than the mace that can deal 150 dmg to both light and heavy units. the only reason i ever did was boredom
also skills and perks might increase your damage too much as i found i could hit 50-70's with blacksmith hammer.

also there is no reason to be dealing 400+ dmg to tier 6 cataphract just because you have a polearm. the main benefit of polearms is their range advantage, anti-cav ability, and they are not even particularly slow weapons either. giving voulge 188Cut dmg, AND the ability to crush through block is just completely un-necessary

even in the rare case of not one-shotting something, take a high tier 1h sword around 80C and being able to deal like 70 SLASH damage against the most HEAVY ARMOURED unit in the game is stupid. how you can slash 60+damage through the heaviest armour in the game is beyond me

[the.lovewyrm]

Buzzed Lightyear eredeti hozzászólása:

its because of thinking like this the Pilum will never get the love it deserves...

It could get love if TW wanted it. After all, swing/weapon speed is a thing already implemented.
It could just slap a hefty speed penalty on the shield or whatever, and that would be good.

The biggest snag is just that the combat system is so arcadey, including the 100% damage reduction block. The main damage reduction feature (which anyone should get as good as possible at.)

Besides, even if armor reduced 99% of damage, staggers and animation interrupts have such a low damage threshold that someone with a faster weapon could potentially still lock down a heavily armored fighter, it would just draw out fights, etc, and bannerlord is just rockem sockem robots...
Vs humans, it gets better (and trickier) because of feints, weird movement patterns, mindgames, but if everyone where padded up there too, then I dunno...

There are probably better games for that. (Perhaps Hellish Quart or something)

Some official lol TW (a billion air quotes) M&B Esports...coverage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-oU2HozWEs

it's silly AF. Fun as the player, but it's silly to watch as a non player.

[: )]

I believe if you get hit by direct sword swing you will be pretty much dead... :D

[egg]

the.lovewyrm eredeti hozzászólása:

all that about the spoon and the branch etc i dont understand your point at all, or how it relates to full plate armour being able to be slashed through with a metal blade, which doesnt happen.

but i'll entertain it i guess, even though i clearly stated that the realism is irrelevant to me, and i think everyone dying in one hit regardless of weapon or armour is boring af gameplay wise. there is absolutely NO good reason to be able to deal 400 damage to a tier 6 heavy troop just from one swing of a melee weapon, and i refuse to believe it is "by design" like you do. troops have like 100-120hp in most circumstances lol

ofc if someone hits you with a tree branch, perfectly, at high speed, and you are just standing there, looking at them, waiting to be hit in the face or even mouth by said branch then yeah it would probably hurt, you will be dazed, lose a few teeth maybe, it might even knock you out for a sec. you can come up with as many hypothetical situations as you want and i will agree with you about it hurting and doing a bit of damage. you forget this is 2 people fighting each other, moving, parrying, evading, not hitting perfectly with glancing blows, not supersoldiers who can swing their arms at full belt for hours without getting tired, not just standing still waiting for a tree branch to come and brush their teeth for them

to answer your question, yes i really would like the melee battles to be drawn out longer than they currently are, which is 2 moshpit walls dissolving into each other in the span of 15 seconds.

"otherwise armour just looks cool" agree, as it is with most weapon choices. which is kinda my point. they are all basically cosmetic choices, but they could be so much more. they have a perfect armour system and encumbrance system. Heavier armours should protect you more, and slow you down a bit more, lighter armours should enable you to be more agile and have a little better weapon handling. these systems are perfectly in place already but are pointless because the encumbrance of armours is completely negated by athletics skills and perks, even at the average levels of like 100 athletics, which negate almost all the effects of heavy encumbrance.

i guess my opinion could also be worded like this: equipment choices should have a greater and more varied impact on your gameplay

[egg]

and for the record i dont think that warband has this problem

[Msalgado]

I think the main issue is that armor is kinda useless.

A trained warrior should be able to almost one shot an unarmored looter/peasant.
BUT a fully armored knight seems just 20%.. 30% more resistant to damage, if that much.

When I finally got to TIER 6 armor I just changed from taking 2 hits to being able to take 3 hits.

Armor is WAY underpowered in this game.

Warband felt more "realistic" on the armor/health/damage.

[the.lovewyrm]

I see, my point was that in a fight, you don't need a lot of damage to 'remove' the opponent.
A simple branch can beat someone into submission, into giving up, into crying uncle even if doesn't kill him or her.

Thus, a solid metal mace, or a sword, or a polearm can do the trick even better.
If it's possible to make someone 'quit' the fight with a truncheon, which has 'low damage' then a big boy weapon would be even better at it.

Thus, a 'low damage mace' one shotting someone could very well just be an abstraction of that principle.
Yes, the mace doesn't do as much damage as a two handed sword, but the 'kill' (well blunt weapon don't kill anyway) still happens.

Even though the mace is not as powerful.
Armor helps though, it's not *useless* especially against arrows/bolts but it doesn't feel as useful in a fight...if you're bad at blocking, which, again, is the main 'skill based' damage mitigation of Mount and Blade.

There are two hander overhead strike crush throughs, but other than that, again, a tiny dagger can 100% block a meteorite in Calradia, if a meteorite were a blockable weapon (it probably wouldn't be, but if it were).
A looter could just hold up his hammer, the space rock would be blocked harmlessly with a wooden 'plock' sound and the looter would be fine.

In a 1v1, it doesn't matter as much how much armor you have, what matters there is skill in weaponry, and blocking, and movement.
HP and armor only make you fail slower. You don't win by eating hits.
You win by avoiding them and hitting the other guy.

It's not realistic at all, but bannerlord just isn't realistic. The idea is to fight skillfully, not to buy "10 de facto blocks per battle" for 500k you made from smithing.
The armor is there so you can survive a few arrows. You're meant to block or avoid melee, that's why it's a 100% damage reduction.
That's why it has mechanics like 'just in time blocks' (where sparks fly off the weapon and the opponent gets repelled and delayed longer than with a lazy/far ahead block)
That's why chamber blocking is a (hard to pull off) thing.

That's why if you position your body correctly, you can block 10 people at once if they were all swinging horizontally, and you blocked vertically, and angled your body to the side so all their weapons hit yours.

It's why kicks and pommel strikes are counters to blocks.

THATS where they want you to focus.
Not "here you go, mr blacksmith, a fat stack of denars, gimme the ultra plate 5000 MK]I[" so you don't have to block anymore.

Again, not realistic, plate armor should make you real tanky, but in BL it only does that for projectiles. Which are dangerous because they flinch you even completely ironclad, and then some melee guy can end you during that stun.

Plus, you don't even get oneshot, not with completely crap weapons, but you will get oneshot with good weapons and medium armor, and maybe two shotted with really heavy armor.
But you shouldn't be taking hits anyway. I can go cyclic on this, but I won't.
I know it's not realistic, but BL focuses on skill, not armor.

[egg]

i have 500 hours on WB, 500 on BL, and 2800 hours on war of the roses 1v1 duel servers (a M&B clone that was multiplayer only), you can trust that i know how to block and can do so very effectively.

im not complaining about ME dying, im complaining about my opponents dying too quickly.

i dont want to be able to put on armour so strong that i dont have to block anymore

also just ignore ranged for a second im not really bothered about getting shot

maybe i just suck at explaining myself, but at the risk of also going cyclic, my final attempt at explaining:

i'd prefer it if i wasn't able to take out the absolute best and most elite unit in the game wearing the heaviest most protective gear in the land by just landing a glancing blow to his heavily armoured left shoulder plate pauldron, with a mediocre mace.

or the fact that i can purposefully turn my body away from them, in order to purposefully land a low-velocity soft hit that only impacts at the very end of my swing, to his plate armour boots - something akin to trying to trip someone over with a stick rather than trying to cut their leg off. and yet despite my glancing hit, and his plate-covered shins, this still somehow does 130 damage to him and instakills, all due to the pole-arm having a core damage of 188. 188! <-- thats ridiculous. because as i've said multiple times now, i think the core damage of every weapon in the game is too high (apart from maybe the spears damage values which are good where they are)

i agree the game is kinda arcadey, which is why i'd like the deaths to be less speedy. to smash their faces in a bit more before they go down. in my BL experience an unsatisfying little cut and they fall over instantly is not as fun as taking the little blacksmith hammer and smashing him in the teeth four times before he stops moving

but hey, all discussions about realism aside, if you love the current values and armour / weapon balance then more power to you i guess, i just disagree

[the.lovewyrm]

Well, as unfortunate as it is...my points can be applied to the enemy too.
They would live longer if they blocked and evaded better.
Awkward strikes shouldn't kill, no, but that would probably require an overhaul of the combat engine too, not just weapons.


Perhaps by adjusting the handling arcs, and making weapon damage fall off more on the more awkward ends of the swing.

Or a massive boost in armor...
Cause otherwise, let's say a swinging polearm only does 50 damage now. Now a looter might not die in one hit but two or maybe three. Even if you're not a beginner fighter anymore (aka your weapons handling and speed has increased)

Now an armored opponent falls down in 6 hits or so. But also if you strike them true, the number won't go that much lower.

So making armor more effective is probably the way to go. Not so much weapons.
But yeah it's just a tricky situation, I understand what you want, I just don't see a simple solution to it.
Other than changing the way armor works, cause as you said, in warband it was bit different.

It's not impossible that TW changed thing with 'esports in mind' (since they are also now added a ranking system, and MP has been pure matchmaking, too)

Man, wouldn't that be something? You know how games that have a sizeable SP base get sequels, or entirely new IPs, and the devs think "wow League of Legends and Dota and Starcraft are such giants and so successful and they're balanced around MP!" that SP gets less interesting?

Wouldn't that be something? For Bannerlord? It's a ghastly thought and I am a MP proponent... but to push 'more skill' they made armor for SP only marginally more effective because top tier duelists fight with hairs breadth margins sometimes and for them it means a lot more than to someone who just gets smacked in the head 5 times in a row due to no skill in avoidance.

Maybe mods will be stable one day and then we all can live happily ever after.

Edit:
I don't know if I love the armor values. I just don't know if tuning weapons would help.
I guess they would but then, again, having metal between you and a blade is just such a large modifier in relation to being unarmored.
If you turn down weapon damage, then unarmored or lightly armored units get too strong, but they shouldn't, since getting cut and smashed in exposed flesh does a lot of damage.
yet armor mitigates it so well that the scalar, or modifier, or whatever quickly goes nuts.
Chainmail gloves with padding underneath vs a butchers cleaver IRL
vs
no gloves just bare hand vs a butchers cleaver.
You'll be hacking a long time on the chainmail glove.
And that's just chainmail, but its enough to essentially neutralize the cleaver.
But it hacks fingers real good without armor.

It's a big difference.
I see that more as an armor issue and not a weapon issue.
Edit:
Ok, meat cleavers are rather hefty, but...you know.

[egg]

yeah i guess what im complaining about could be easily fixed if i just modded the game to perfectly suit my tastes.

about the glancing blows / armour system, i dont know if you ever player War of the Roses, but it was a little hidden gem of a multiplayer game, same combat system as MB, up down left right swings and parries etc. unfortunately its dead now, servers have long been RIP, but it had so many systems that would be incredible for both SP and MP in bannerlord. problem is like you already said it would require a complete rework or heavy modification to the combat system

attacks would drop off in penetration and damage if the hit was awkward, like at the very end or beginning of a swing, and would deal little or no damage depending on which bit of the armour you hit

and the heavy armours still had weakspots, as the armours all had seperate hitboxes for plate, mail, leather, cloth and skin. like the full metal breastplate would be hard to penetrate especially slashing with swords and the like, but you could still aim for the mail / leather parts like the arms to deal good damage if you had a 1h swords, and even the heavy helmets still had a small gap inbetween the head and the body, where if you landed an accurate hit you could still reach the neck hitbox to deal critical skin-damage, and decapitate if you had a strong weapon.

the maces could deal consistent damage to all players, but you just couldnt slash through the cloth-wearers like butter as with the two handed swords

probably not possible to reliably have the armour hitbox systems or glancing blow systems in a game like bannerlord where 500vs500 battle already have so many things that need calculating. wouldn't want the performance in these large battles to get even worse, especially in sieges.

oh but it is nice to think wishfully every so often

[the.lovewyrm]

Damn, I missed a pretty cool game then, from the sound of it.
I think i've seen some images and stuff, but it looked cheap to me, like it was just some jank game quickly made in unity or something.
I'm looking at it again right now and the UI recovered the memories, the fonts ... yeah that gave me the wrong impression.

It would be amazing if that system would be modded for MP. They want E-sports? Then actual modeled armor with gaps and materials?
Now that would be something.

SP would be nice too, but that would probably tank performance, yeah.
And because it's a sandbox game (I touched on that in some other thread) it's probably not going to happen that they develop this for tournaments.
(just like we don't have real jousting, with the lanes, etc and instead just get normal standard mounted combat)

[The Mau Corporation]

the.lovewyrm eredeti hozzászólása:

I see, my point was that in a fight, you don't need a lot of damage to 'remove' the opponent.
A simple branch can beat someone into submission, into giving up, into crying uncle even if doesn't kill him or her.

Thus, a solid metal mace, or a sword, or a polearm can do the trick even better.
If it's possible to make someone 'quit' the fight with a truncheon, which has 'low damage' then a big boy weapon would be even better at it.

Thus, a 'low damage mace' one shotting someone could very well just be an abstraction of that principle.
Yes, the mace doesn't do as much damage as a two handed sword, but the 'kill' (well blunt weapon don't kill anyway) still happens.

Even though the mace is not as powerful.
Armor helps though, it's not *useless* especially against arrows/bolts but it doesn't feel as useful in a fight...if you're bad at blocking, which, again, is the main 'skill based' damage mitigation of Mount and Blade.

There are two hander overhead strike crush throughs, but other than that, again, a tiny dagger can 100% block a meteorite in Calradia, if a meteorite were a blockable weapon (it probably wouldn't be, but if it were).
A looter could just hold up his hammer, the space rock would be blocked harmlessly with a wooden 'plock' sound and the looter would be fine.

In a 1v1, it doesn't matter as much how much armor you have, what matters there is skill in weaponry, and blocking, and movement.
HP and armor only make you fail slower. You don't win by eating hits.
You win by avoiding them and hitting the other guy.

It's not realistic at all, but bannerlord just isn't realistic. The idea is to fight skillfully, not to buy "10 de facto blocks per battle" for 500k you made from smithing.
The armor is there so you can survive a few arrows. You're meant to block or avoid melee, that's why it's a 100% damage reduction.
That's why it has mechanics like 'just in time blocks' (where sparks fly off the weapon and the opponent gets repelled and delayed longer than with a lazy/far ahead block)
That's why chamber blocking is a (hard to pull off) thing.

That's why if you position your body correctly, you can block 10 people at once if they were all swinging horizontally, and you blocked vertically, and angled your body to the side so all their weapons hit yours.

It's why kicks and pommel strikes are counters to blocks.

THATS where they want you to focus.
Not "here you go, mr blacksmith, a fat stack of denars, gimme the ultra plate 5000 MK]I[" so you don't have to block anymore.

Again, not realistic, plate armor should make you real tanky, but in BL it only does that for projectiles. Which are dangerous because they flinch you even completely ironclad, and then some melee guy can end you during that stun.

Plus, you don't even get oneshot, not with completely crap weapons, but you will get oneshot with good weapons and medium armor, and maybe two shotted with really heavy armor.
But you shouldn't be taking hits anyway. I can go cyclic on this, but I won't.
I know it's not realistic, but BL focuses on skill, not armor.

I hope more people read and understand this.

[Major0Noob]

soo,
milita = t5 troop is good?
1 t5 > 3 peasants bad?
archer melee = inf melee good?

nothing skilful or realistic about it.
its just bland.