Herd Effect

[dichebach]

Did this get adjusted at some point to be more punitive? My understanding from older discussions was: 1 riding horse per foot soldier + 1 pack horse per foot soldier was about the limit before one got into "herd" effect territory.

I presently have a total party size of 37 including my character and no companions. I am on horse back.

There are 6 Cavalry; 17 Infantry; 14 Archers. That is a total of 31 "foot soldiers" right?

In addition to the horse I ride, I have: 30 saddle horses and 10 work horses.

Nonetheless, my "herd" effect shows as -0.11

Couple possible explanations I can think of:

1. Three of my "Infantry" are Vigla Recruits (the noble Tier 2 Empire recruits that upgrade into cavalry at Tier 3), and maybe the game considers them to be "cavalry" with respect to herd calculations even though they count as infantry as far as troop counts go? (I counted the number of archers and yes, there really are 14, so the game IS in fact counting the Viglas as "Infantry" when it comes to the troop tallies).

2. TaleWorlds made the herd effect more punitive and the "1 riding horse per foot soldier + 1 pack horse per foot soldier" limit is less than it used to be?

[Supply Side Jesus]

I think cows and pigs also count toward herd.

[Mad★Paladin]

jesus is right!

[dichebach]

Originally posted by Supply Side Jesus:

I think cows and pigs also count toward herd.

I didn't have any cows or pigs, nor sheep, ferrets or gophers either . . .

Sold three of my work horses and got rid of herd. So 7 work horses and 30 saddle horses and I'm good . . .

7 is a strange integer with relation to my party size: it doesn't really divide evenly into any of those larger integers (38 total party size; 37 total NPC in party; 31 foot soldiers (17 Infantry and 14 Archers); 6 cav) . . .

I therefore introduce a couple of hypotheses:
1. Seven is a hard limit on number of pack animals one can have before "herd" effect kicks in (surely one of you lads has a later stage game save and maybe have a lot more pack animals to disprove this hypothesis?). I really do not believe this hypothesis is true case but it is worth stating . . .

2. The game rounds numbers. So lets say one gets 1 pack animal per 5 soldiers? Assuming it uses total troop counts 38 / 5 = 7.6 which would generally round up to 8, but might round down to 7. This would be a bit more complicated to test.

3. Lets say you get 1 pack animal per six soldiers? 38 / 6 = 6.33 which would generally NOT round up to 7 . . .

There are other possible hypotheses of course, but those are the simplest I can think off off the top of my head

[Maero]

you should try gophers,best pack animal in M&B

[RJboxer]

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2918574169
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2918573936
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2918574065

[dichebach]

Originally posted by RJboxer:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2918574169
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2918573936
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2918574065

Okay so . . . you got 80 riding horses, and 63 pack animals . . .

98 total soldiers of which 70 are foot . . . and no "herd effect." Obviously this falsifies hypothesis 1, as expected. The limit on horses obviously is a function of how many troops and/or foot troops in the party, not just a hard limit.

The ratio of total troops to animals in my original scenario was 37 : 40 or 1 : 1.08

The ratio of total troops to animals in your scenario is 98 : 143 or 1 : 1.46

!?

[GIJoe597]

I cannot put my finger on it but something seems off in the released and 1.1 beta version. Not sure which one you are playing but ever since they changed the name of horses, added many more types it seems like it is hit and miss if a particular horse affects it.

I have been assuming they simply have not gotten around to fixing the behind the scene stats yet. For example, I can have a herd penalty and remove a horse type mount one of the new ones, it has no affect, But if I remove the saddle horse specifically it will affect it. I dunno.

[dichebach]

Originally posted by GIJoe597:

I cannot put my finger on it but something seems off in the released and 1.1 beta version. Not sure which one you are playing but every since they changed the name of horses, added many more types it seems like it is hit and miss if a particular horse affects it,

I have been assuming they simply have not gotten around to fixes the behind the scene stats yet. For example, I can have a herd penalty and remove a horse type mount one of the new ones, it has no affect, But if I remove the saddle horse specifically it will affect it. I dunno.

Yes, I too am playing with the 1.1 beta version, and it had occurred to me that maybe what I'm experiencing reflects a bug/glitch which has been introduced with this version.

[RJboxer]

Originally posted by GIJoe597:

I cannot put my finger on it but something seems off in the released and 1.1 beta version. Not sure which one you are playing but ever since they changed the name of horses, added many more types it seems like it is hit and miss if a particular horse affects it.

I have been assuming they simply have not gotten around to fixing the behind the scene stats yet. For example, I can have a herd penalty and remove a horse type mount one of the new ones, it has no affect, But if I remove the saddle horse specifically it will affect it. I dunno.

correct.. and so is "over burdened" I think.. But I have no idea what they are even saying.

"cargo within capacity -.09" Huh????

"overburdened -.21" huh???

so I get penalized for it being "within capacity". but it is MORE penalized for also being over burdened...

But it gets worse.. Cargo within capacity -06.
and NO over burdened...

I bet if I looked hard, I'd see an overburdened penalty somewhere, and NO cargo within capacity...

Basically here is my THEORY...

They had these things in game, and they Worked.. Once.. but they constantly tweak things over and over, and have made NUMEROUS documented mistakes with math, and coding.. (transposed numbers, Positive instead of negative, Plus instead of minus etc).

So I'm guessing Neither of these are working correctly (horses, pack animals, herd, cows, Burdened, over burdened etc). But they did at one time.

And someone at TW needs to take a few minutes.. And relook at the math, and ALL THE THINGS it affects (ahhhhh he has too much weight this affects Overburdened and cargo within capacity. let's make sure the formula is correct for BOTH, and that that it affects both uniformly) etc

[dichebach]

You know, another thing that I think got "brokened" at some point fairly recently . . . I can recall a week or two ago playing the game and seeing an entry in the detailed "Movement Speed" breakdown that was something like "Mounted Infantry bonus: +0.37."

Went to bed. I think there was a small hotfix or update for the game (though not sure) and haven't seen that bonus entry ever since.

[Clovis Sangrail]

I fiddled with this some, and here's what I am seeing.

My old rule of thumb was you could have 2X + Y animals in your party, where X = number of foot troops and Y = number of mounted troops. Example -- I have 81 foot troops and 118 mounted, so I could have (2 * 81) + 118 = 280 animals without incurring any significant herd penalty.

It didn't make any difference what kind of animals it was, but it was usually almost all Tier 0sumpters and mules.

But in my current playthrough, when I have 280 sumpters and mules with that combination of troops, I have a herd penalty of .46. Additionally, I have no bonus for footmen on horses.

I fiddled with the number of T0 and T1 mounts, and I found I got zero herd penalty with the following distribution -- X T1 mounts + X T0 mounts + Y T0 mounts, again where X = number of foot troops and Y = number of mounted troops.

In the same example with 81 foot troops and 118 mounted, I could have 81 T1 mounts for footmen + 81 T0 mounts led by footmen + 118 T0 mounts led by mounted troops = 81 T1 mounts and 199 T0 mounts. This combination gave me zero herd penalty, plus I now got .31 speed bonus for Footmen on horses.

To summarize, where X = number of foot troops and Y = number of mounted troops, optimum distribution = X T1 mounts + (X + Y) T0 mounts. This eliminates herd penalty, enables Footmen on horses bonus and maximizes carrying capacity.

Additional note -- Including war horses in your herd doesn't not seem to affect the herd penalty calculation but does seem to affect the Footmen on horses calculation. It looks like war horses do not count for footmen to ride. More work is needed on this.

[GIJoe597]

Interesting.

[Zerosaiko]

The way it works is except for the horses that are being used for the Footmen on Horses bonus, all animals count against your herd.

All troops can herd one animal.
In addition, all footmen can ride one mount (basically any horse that's not a Pack Animal).
Once the amount of animals being herded exceeds the amount of troops (footmen or mounted), the herd penalty kicks in.

[dichebach]

Originally posted by Clovis Sangrail:

I fiddled with this some, and here's what I am seeing.

My old rule of thumb was you could have 2X + Y animals in your party, where X = number of foot troops and Y = number of mounted troops. Example -- I have 81 foot troops and 118 mounted, so I could have (2 * 81) + 118 = 280 animals without incurring any significant herd penalty.

It didn't make any difference what kind of animals it was, but it was usually almost all Tier 0sumpters and mules.

But in my current playthrough, when I have 280 sumpters and mules with that combination of troops, I have a herd penalty of .46. Additionally, I have no bonus for footmen on horses.

I fiddled with the number of T0 and T1 mounts, and I found I got zero herd penalty with the following distribution -- X T1 mounts + X T0 mounts + Y T0 mounts, again where X = number of foot troops and Y = number of mounted troops.

In the same example with 81 foot troops and 118 mounted, I could have 81 T1 mounts for footmen + 81 T0 mounts led by footmen + 118 T0 mounts led by mounted troops = 81 T1 mounts and 199 T0 mounts. This combination gave me zero herd penalty, plus I now got .31 speed bonus for Footmen on horses.

To summarize, where X = number of foot troops and Y = number of mounted troops, optimum distribution = X T1 mounts + (X + Y) T0 mounts. This eliminates herd penalty, enables Footmen on horses bonus and maximizes carrying capacity.

Additional note -- Including war horses in your herd doesn't not seem to affect the herd penalty calculation but does seem to affect the Footmen on horses calculation. It looks like war horses do not count for footmen to ride. More work is needed on this.

Thanks for that detailed effort, and synthesis of how it is working for you. That sounds like a good system.

However, in the case of my original issue, it did not seem to be working this way

Originally posted by dichebach:

I presently have a total party size of 37 including my character and no companions. I am on horse back.

There are 6 Cavalry; 17 Infantry; 14 Archers. That is a total of 31 "foot soldiers" right?

In addition to the horse I ride, I have: 30 saddle horses and 10 work horses.

Nonetheless, my "herd" effect shows as -0.11

In that case, X = 31 and Y = 6.
Saddle horses are T1 mounts, and work horses are T0 mounts (or presumably should be).

I had one less T1 mount than should have been allowed (X = 31 but I had 30 saddle horses), and I had far less T0 mounts than I should have been allowed (X + Y = 37 but I only had 10 T0 mounts).

It may be that "work horses" are bugged somehow. Because as I discovered, selling three of the 10 work horses brought down my herd effect to 0.0.

[Clovis Sangrail]

Saddle horses are T0, so you had 40 T0 horses, but only 37 troops. This gave you a small herd penalty.

Then you sold three, which gave you 37 T0 horses and 37 troops. Effect -- No herd penalty.

You probably also had no 'Footmen on horses' bonus because you had no T1 horses. You could add 31 T1 mounts for your footmen to ride. These would also increase your cargo capacity.