Stupid Economy

[Sabotai]

I've been playing Mount and Blade for decades, and I buy new installments as soon as I can when I see good reviews, because I love this franchise a lot. But I don't know whose opinion you're listening to when you develop this game, it just squanders all the potential and perks.

Caravans and workshops as passive income sources give you little profit unless you're in the very early phase of the game, and using caravans to level your companions is stupid because they don't even raise their trading skill. I need a mod to do exactly that—why on earth would you deprive companions of trade experience from running a caravan? Is it a challenge, irony, or just plain masochism? You can profit from workshops only if you want to micromanage them, store 100% of the product, and sell it yourself for maximum profit. But the point of having a workshop is to have passive income to finance your troops, not to use it as a warehouse for hoarding commodities.

Trading yourself and fighting bandits are way better for the early game, then tournaments, and then in the late game you exploit smithing to the fullest to finance your troops, because towns and castles are more of a burden, a baby to take care of, than a support for your economy. Why you fell so far behind the primitive Warband is beyond me—this is very simple logic that seems to escape your mind. I easily gather a million dinars selling two-handed polearms and two-handed swords while spoon-feeding and financing my fiefs and armies. I'm like a traveling blacksmith who is so rich and powerful that he can finance the whole kingdom. But this is not the point of playing Mount and Blade—towns are supposed to be economic powerhouses that finance your kingdom in the late game. Why you nerfed it, making it less realistic and less fun, to provide "balance" is beyond me.

Still your fan, but please remember that roleplay is more important than balance and fun is more important than realism. We are playing a game, for God's sake, not looking for a balanced challenge.

[kristianjakob]

Originally posted by Sabotai:

IWhy you nerfed it, making it less realistic and less fun, to provide "balance" is beyond me.

It is not really a nerf. The reason why caravans, worksshops and to a slighty lesser extend towns feel weak is more that it is incredibly profitable to actively do thing whether that be fighting, smithing or even trading. Money is just not a particularly scarce ressource.

In the same vein, you do not need passive income to finance your troops, they finance themselves.

[Sabotai]

That's exactly the problem. Acquiring a town is a stepping stone to increasing your troop quantities through its tax revenue, recruitment pools, and garrison. To take that away because plundering and smithing already cover all the financial needs is... dumb? or at least it's a waste of a potentially great mechanic.

If plundering and smithing are the core economy of the game, I suggest we disable town economies altogether because they're useless. The things we care about towns are food, security, and loyalty, while tax losses (or profit) are too small to be taken seriously, economy already been under control with cookie cutter smithing mini-games and selling loots and prisoners.

[Urmel]

you shouldnt play bannerlord for the economic part of the game.
and no, warband wasnt better, it was only different.

[kristianjakob]

Originally posted by Sabotai:

That's exactly the problem. Acquiring a town is a stepping stone to increasing your troop quantities through its tax revenue, recruitment pools, and garrison. To take that away because plundering and smithing already cover all the financial needs is... dumb? or at least it's a waste of a potentially great mechanic.

If plundering and smithing are the core economy of the game, I suggest we disable town economies altogether because they're useless. The things we care about towns are food, security, and loyalty, while tax losses (or profit) are too small to be taken seriously, economy already been under control with cookie cutter smithing mini-games and selling loots and prisoners.

A workshop will pay for roughly the same amount of troops in Bannerlord as it would have in Warband. A good town a bit more and of course caravans were not a thing in warband. Because of militia you dont really need large garrisons in Bannerlord either.

In short, in terms of simply balancing your day to day affairs there really isnt much difference between the two games.

What fundamentally seperate the two games is the need for very substantial amounts to sway vassals to your side in Bannerlord. You could nerf the "active" sources of income and buff the "passive" sources and what you would have is something closer to waiting to make enough to buy the next vassal as oppossed to going out farming to make enough to buy the next. Whether you prefer one over the other seems more a matter of personal taste.

[2tecs]

Yes youre right. The economy is pretty bad, so are so many more aspects of the game. so much promised, so much potential but its fallen short on absolutely everything. Most people will get all neckbeardy and defend it thinking the devs will be their friend but ignore those mouth breathers.

[Action Man]

Passive income should always be minimal. If you aren't doing anything to earn it, why should you get a lot of it? You don't even need to bank and sell the product to make money. You make more when you do that, as you should because you're taking an active role.

Are the economic/trade aspects of this game lacking? No argument from me.

From what I understand, your companions do earn trade experience running a caravan.

Fief ownership gives better passive income. Build the town up, put in a good governor, and the tax income rolls in.

If you need to exploit smithing, then you're not good at earning money. I've never done it - way too tedious and boring - and I don't have money issues in the mid/late game. I cover my expenses by being a mercenary and being in constant war, or I have a good network of fiefs that bring in the money. And still battle, lol.

[Clovis Sangrail]

Originally posted by Sabotai:

. . . using caravans to level your companions is stupid because they don't even raise their trading skill.

A palpable falsehood. I routinely put my sister in charge of a caravan, and she will level Trade up to 300.

Originally posted by Sabotai:

But the point of having a workshop is to have passive income to finance your troops, not to use it as a warehouse for hoarding commodities.

Who says? Maybe that was its sole function in Warband, but workshops are more complex in Bannerlord. I used mine to get Trade experience for my main character, plus the profit from selling the production myself.

But you expect free money, like in Warband, don't you? Money for nothin' and your chicks for free?

Not happening.

[Legiondorf]

I feel like all the clan features such as shops, caravans etc are mainly just for passive income if s*** really hits the fan if you loose your main stack. The balance is right. Lets face it Rivacheg dye was stupidly OP and it was always hilarious that King Harlaus would kindly mind your enterprises while you declare for his enemies and then hand enterprises back once peace returns without any kind of grudge.

[Hexagoros]

Originally posted by kristianjakob:

Originally posted by Sabotai:

IWhy you nerfed it, making it less realistic and less fun, to provide "balance" is beyond me.

It is not really a nerf. The reason why caravans, worksshops and to a slighty lesser extend towns feel weak is more that it is incredibly profitable to actively do thing whether that be fighting, smithing or even trading. Money is just not a particularly scarce ressource.

In the same vein, you do not need passive income to finance your troops, they finance themselves.

Very much this.

Troops are VERY cheap, and the game's economy feels very shallow because of how cheap troops are. There is just no incentive to build passive income when the troops are so cheap that 'using' said troops is more than enough to finance their existence.

Originally posted by Clovis Sangrail:

Who says? Maybe that was its sole function in Warband, but workshops are more complex in Bannerlord. I used mine to get Trade experience for my main character, plus the profit from selling the production myself.

But you expect free money, like in Warband, don't you? Money for nothin' and your chicks for free?

Not happening.

You are completely missing the point.

I'm saying I can IGNORE all of the game's non-combat income sources and get by just fine - from start to finish.

There is no incentive to focus on anything but combat - because combat is so profitable that it sustains itself, while troops are so cheap that they are almost an afterthought.

Why spend hours fiddling with workshops or checking trade prices, when I can make 'more' money in a fraction of the time knocking over a few enemy stacks or raiding a few caravans?

[Sabotai]

Originally posted by Clovis Sangrail:

Originally posted by Sabotai:

. . . using caravans to level your companions is stupid because they don't even raise their trading skill.

But you expect free money, like in Warband, don't you? Money for nothin' and your chicks for free?

Not happening.

You can't even read, can you? I'm not complaining about money problems. Money's stupid easy to get in Bannerlord. My character could buy your sorry ass in a second just by selling a few "masterfully crafted" weapons. What I'm complaining about is the gameplay mechanics. Don't get so worked up, feel free to disagree – that's why I made my opinion public. I want to hear what others think, but your raging fanboy argument doesn't convince or affect me one bit.

Originally posted by Clovis Sangrail:

Originally posted by Sabotai:

. . . using caravans to level your companions is stupid because they don't even raise their trading skill.

A palpable falsehood. I routinely put my sister in charge of a caravan, and she will level Trade up to 300.

I'm glad you and your sister were able to make it work, but it seems people are making mods to connect caravans with trade skills. I suspect they are the source of "falsehood".

[Bookhead's Posture Checkers LLC]

Workshops were too good so they had to completely nerf them to the ground and continue to ♥♥♥♥ them over. I recommend "Wealthy Workshops" if you actually want it to be profitable again

[kristianjakob]

Originally posted by Hexagoros:

Originally posted by kristianjakob:

It is not really a nerf. The reason why caravans, worksshops and to a slighty lesser extend towns feel weak is more that it is incredibly profitable to actively do thing whether that be fighting, smithing or even trading. Money is just not a particularly scarce ressource.

In the same vein, you do not need passive income to finance your troops, they finance themselves.

Very much this.

Troops are VERY cheap, and the game's economy feels very shallow because of how cheap troops are. There is just no incentive to build passive income when the troops are so cheap that 'using' said troops is more than enough to finance their existence.

Originally posted by Clovis Sangrail:

Who says? Maybe that was its sole function in Warband, but workshops are more complex in Bannerlord. I used mine to get Trade experience for my main character, plus the profit from selling the production myself.

But you expect free money, like in Warband, don't you? Money for nothin' and your chicks for free?

Not happening.

You are completely missing the point.

I'm saying I can IGNORE all of the game's non-combat income sources and get by just fine - from start to finish.

There is no incentive to focus on anything but combat - because combat is so profitable that it sustains itself, while troops are so cheap that they are almost an afterthought.

Why spend hours fiddling with workshops or checking trade prices, when I can make 'more' money in a fraction of the time knocking over a few enemy stacks or raiding a few caravans?

Not really sure what you want here though. If you buff workshops etc. and offset it with increasing wages you havnt really materially changed anything.

[Hexagoros]

Originally posted by kristianjakob:

Originally posted by Hexagoros:

Very much this.

Troops are VERY cheap, and the game's economy feels very shallow because of how cheap troops are. There is just no incentive to build passive income when the troops are so cheap that 'using' said troops is more than enough to finance their existence.



You are completely missing the point.

I'm saying I can IGNORE all of the game's non-combat income sources and get by just fine - from start to finish.

There is no incentive to focus on anything but combat - because combat is so profitable that it sustains itself, while troops are so cheap that they are almost an afterthought.

Why spend hours fiddling with workshops or checking trade prices, when I can make 'more' money in a fraction of the time knocking over a few enemy stacks or raiding a few caravans?

Not really sure what you want here though. If you buff workshops etc. and offset it with increasing wages you havnt really materially changed anything.

Then read it again, because it's not difficult.

The easiest means of income is recruiting soldiers, and the using those soldiers.

1) Soldiers are dirt cheap to recruit and maintain.

2) Soldiers bring in huge amounts of income via battles.

3) Battles takes a fraction of the time and effort to generate income as compared to fiddling with workshops and checking trade prices.

It shouldn't be viable (or even the superior strategy) to completely ignore non-combat income streams. Right now, soldiers pay for themselves just by using them. Soldiers don't represent an 'expense,' they represent an income stream.

[kristianjakob]

Originally posted by Hexagoros:

Originally posted by kristianjakob:

Not really sure what you want here though. If you buff workshops etc. and offset it with increasing wages you havnt really materially changed anything.

Then read it again, because it's not difficult.

The easiest means of income is recruiting soldiers, and the using those soldiers.

1) Soldiers are dirt cheap to recruit and maintain.

2) Soldiers bring in huge amounts of income via battles.

3) Battles takes a fraction of the time and effort to generate income as compared to fiddling with workshops and checking trade prices.

It shouldn't be viable (or even the superior strategy) to completely ignore non-combat income streams. Right now, soldiers pay for themselves just by using them. Soldiers don't represent an 'expense,' they represent an income stream.

Well yes, no argument there. War is my dominant source of income for sure. But, what is it that you actually want to see change?

Nerf income from loot? Make trading more profitable? Make smithing more profitable?

[Triple G]

The problem with caravans is that they walk into war territory and get caught by the small mercenary parties, so they´re barely worth their money, when they cost like 22.5k, but need to work a good amount of days to earn that money back. They´re good if You own the whole map, or don´t join a faction - or if You just use them to level their trade and scouting skill, with the occasional combat skills when they get destroyed, but that usually means downtime, as they get captured.

Workshops are kinda okay with their income, even if many are a bit misleading, and could be explained better. They´re usually safe as they wouldn´t move around, and You can defend them. They make like 250, and if You have 6 of them, they make like 2k, which is almost as much as the upkeep for Your party, which is their only use. Imho it could be a bit higher, so it would cover the costs for Your party, which is probably around 3k, and perhaps the costs of one or two other parties, while the AI companion parties rarely have more than 500 - 1k upkeep as they usually get reduced very much, because they stay in the army till they only have like 30 - 40 people left and lost 100 in the campaign, which is about 1 fight, and then moving from village to village to get recruits, chasing down a 30 people looter party, then switching to the 45 people mercenary party, with the 750 people army, or being defeated in the next fight. So the nice thing for having them doing their own thing instead of having them in Your own army is that You know how the AI operates with their other parties as well.

Else workshops are basically free money, without the need to do something for it, while You also can´t do something with them - and they´re the only way to buy storage room for spare items if You don´t have a castle or town, which might be needed, because if You lock a weapon in Your inventory, it means You need to choose every weapon You want to smelt manually, because it always defaults back to the locked one after every smelting process, while it should only highlight locked weapons, when all others are smelted. And speaking of crafting - it would also be nice if they finally get rid of all the gaps in them. There´s no way one could attach the pilum head or the long tier 5 head without a gap to the handle. And for some other heads it only works with selected handles - same as for most pommels...

Originally posted by kristianjakob:

Nerf income from loot? Make trading more profitable? Make smithing more profitable?

A combination of the former two, together with "make questing more profitable". I´m unsure who wants smithing to be more profitable, as it´s the most profitable thing in the game, but the prices of the weapons should orientate at the ingredients, "time" (stamina) spent, and the tier. While it´s beyond me why You only get crafting stamina if waiting in a town, or a hideout, but not on the map. The "downside" of smithing is that it´s only button clicks and waiting, but besides that it´s like workshops, with the difference that it makes far more money. One doesn´t even need to go full in, but it´s enough to unlock the polearm and 2h sword parts, which is fast, What takes long is to unlock the 1h, and dagger parts, but these are worth no money compared to the others, which is also the reason why it takes so long, even if they need the same amount of resources...