Blocking a cavalry charge with a twig

[Iamnuff]

Blocking is weird in-game.
If you block with a shield and you take enough damage on that shield, it shatters.
But weapons don't have HP, meaning that you can block anything with a pitchfork, or a blacksmith's hammer or other trash weapon.

it doesn't really seem noticeable, until i'm riding up on a group of dudes with my 250+ Two Handed Skill, on my Warhorse, at max-speed with the largest two-handed axe I can find, knowing that if I hit a dude, i'll do enough damage to kill him three times over.
And then he just blocks me outright with a stick and it stops my entire attack cold.

Bannerlord claims to be a physics-based game where the speed and weight of attacks are calculated, so what's the deal with this?
An attack with that much momentum behind it should go right through any one-handed block at minimum.
If you don't want to add shield-like durability to weapons, just add a knockdown mechanic, so if you block an attack that's way too strong to actually block, you take no damage but go flying.

Have mounted troops be able to be dismounted this way too.]
I wanna hit a dude so hard that he goes flying off his horse.

[Action Man]

There is a knockdown mechanic if you get hit hard enough. I've been knocked off my horse before.

Right now weapon blocking is extremely powerful - effectively an infinitely durable shield when blocking from the correct angle (crushing weapons excepted of course).

This came about with the recent update. I like the AI being more defensive instead of flinging themselves on the pointy end of my spear, but something feels off when a bandit can block any attack with a butterknife. Parries I'm fine with.

I use a mod that gives all weapons a level of crush through damage customizable by the user. Not perfect, but more enjoyable than the base game IMO.

[Iamnuff]

Originally posted by Action Man:

There is a knockdown mechanic if you get hit hard enough. I've been knocked off my horse before.

Right now weapon blocking is extremely powerful - effectively an infinitely durable shield when blocking from the correct angle (crushing weapons excepted of course).

This came about with the recent update. I like the AI being more defensive instead of flinging themselves on the pointy end of my spear, but something feels off when a bandit can block any attack with a butterknife. Parries I'm fine with.

I use a mod that gives all weapons a level of crush through damage customizable by the user. Not perfect, but more enjoyable than the base game IMO.

I've never seen a knockdown attack, on me or on enemies.
Edit: Wait, no. During a siege someone threw a rock at me and it did 75% of my hp and knocked me down.
Me belting a dude across the chest with a warhammer at like 40mph from horseback doesn't seem to do jack-all though.

That being said, what do you mean about blunt weapons? Do they just go through block entirely, or does just some of the damage go through?
I've been using a huge battleaxe this whole time, but maybe I should get a warhammer instead.

[Ardariel]

Do you know why lnces are couched? And before that cavalry charges were not really a thing?

You will damage your arms if you try to "transfer that much momentum" with swinging axe w/o that much increase in "damage".

ANd couched lance cant be blocked by pitchfork. At all.

Now, if you gonna go into argument of "but with that much damage it shoudl not matter" you will beright, but it can also be said, that "what is a damage?" All those hitpoints, damage and stuff are approximations at best anyway, so just take it as a game mechanic that you play with and play around.

2H axes can strike 2 people by default, byut can be blocked, lances need perk to have 30% chance to hit more targets, but cant be blocked. Think of it as a balance and trade-off.

Or just ride from behind, where they cant block.

[Iamnuff]

Originally posted by Ardariel:

Do you know why lnces are couched? And before that cavalry charges were not really a thing?

You will damage your arms if you try to "transfer that much momentum" with swinging axe w/o that much increase in "damage".

ANd couched lance cant be blocked by pitchfork. At all.

Now, if you gonna go into argument of "but with that much damage it shoudl not matter" you will beright, but it can also be said, that "what is a damage?" All those hitpoints, damage and stuff are approximations at best anyway, so just take it as a game mechanic that you play with and play around.

2H axes can strike 2 people by default, byut can be blocked, lances need perk to have 30% chance to hit more targets, but cant be blocked. Think of it as a balance and trade-off.

Or just ride from behind, where they cant block.

None of that really addresses my issue though.

My point is that if i'm hitting a guy with enough combined force to instantly explode a high-level shield and kill multiple dudes in a single swing, then you shouldn't be able to block it with a low-level weapon either.

The fact that i'm on horseback or the existence of lances isn't really relevant. The point is that the game simulations momentum for damage, except in this one specific instance, in which it suddenly doesn't care.

As Action Man said though, it's likely because of a recent patch that isn't well balanced.

[Ardariel]

Originally posted by Iamnuff:

Originally posted by Action Man:

There is a knockdown mechanic if you get hit hard enough. I've been knocked off my horse before.

Right now weapon blocking is extremely powerful - effectively an infinitely durable shield when blocking from the correct angle (crushing weapons excepted of course).

This came about with the recent update. I like the AI being more defensive instead of flinging themselves on the pointy end of my spear, but something feels off when a bandit can block any attack with a butterknife. Parries I'm fine with.

I use a mod that gives all weapons a level of crush through damage customizable by the user. Not perfect, but more enjoyable than the base game IMO.

I've never seen a knockdown attack, on me or on enemies.
Edit: Wait, no. During a siege someone threw a rock at me and it did 75% of my hp and knocked me down.
Me belting a dude across the chest with a warhammer at like 40mph from horseback doesn't seem to do jack-all though.

That being said, what do you mean about blunt weapons? Do they just go through block entirely, or does just some of the damage go through?
I've been using a huge battleaxe this whole time, but maybe I should get a warhammer instead.

i believe only 2h mace can do it, and not every one of them.

Basically, if you want 2h weapons on horseback you have 3 options - glaive, bardiche and lance. Glaive fives you highest reach and speed to get to targets and highest damage output, often enemies wont even attempt to block, when you go sideways.

Bardiche strikes 2 units (if they are withing small distance of each other), which other weaponry cant

And lance is utilising momentum and ignore all non-shield blocks with huge damage, and have chance to strike several targets with corresponding perk, but require s[ecial stance.

Maces in this regard kinda falls short compared to lances and bardiches. Sure, it can crush through, but still onle strike one unit. And IIRC only with overhead strikes it can crush through. So you really gonna have better time with lance even w/o skills invested into it.
They are, however, are REALLY GOOD on foot, as long as you know how to keep proper distance (you still can hit em with a handle, and its not gonna do damage, but thats eas to avoid) You kinda sacrifice speed for surety of your strikes, which makes sense. But as i said earlier, i dont see reason to use them on horseback, bardiches will make short work of shields anyway, and w/o shield enemy units would fall down anyway to stagger and other units who strike them, letting you utilise openings.

[Ardariel]

Originally posted by Iamnuff:

Originally posted by Ardariel:

Do you know why lnces are couched? And before that cavalry charges were not really a thing?

You will damage your arms if you try to "transfer that much momentum" with swinging axe w/o that much increase in "damage".

ANd couched lance cant be blocked by pitchfork. At all.

Now, if you gonna go into argument of "but with that much damage it shoudl not matter" you will beright, but it can also be said, that "what is a damage?" All those hitpoints, damage and stuff are approximations at best anyway, so just take it as a game mechanic that you play with and play around.

2H axes can strike 2 people by default, byut can be blocked, lances need perk to have 30% chance to hit more targets, but cant be blocked. Think of it as a balance and trade-off.

Or just ride from behind, where they cant block.

None of that really addresses my issue though.

My point is that if i'm hitting a guy with enough combined force to instantly explode a high-level shield and kill multiple dudes in a single swing, then you shouldn't be able to block it with a low-level weapon either.

The fact that i'm on horseback or the existence of lances isn't really relevant. The point is that the game simulations momentum for damage, except in this one specific instance, in which it suddenly doesn't care.

As Action Man said though, it's likely because of a recent patch that isn't well balanced.

"existence of lances" was exatly adressing yor complaint. "generated momentum" does not actually cut it if you cant actually use it, its a moot point. More sensible point would be, that weaponry made NOT of hardwood, should be broken on such contact too. But thing is, in game even pitchforks are made of hardwood, cause "reasons", so...

As for "poorly balanced patch", i dont think it is, cav in multiplayer would totally dominate everything if you cant defend against it. Its more of a sometimes frame-perfect blocking from peasant that does not look right, not the fact of blocking itself.

P.S.
case in point
https://steamcommunity.com/app/261550/discussions/0/3001047413724910056/
THat how it was in beginning, till they toned it down. Same would be with cav if you wont be able to block their strikes with anything, but shield. Right now you basically need to be aware of charging cavalry with lances, it takes time and distance, so you can play around it. If any cav with any weapon could ignore blocks it would be pandemonium (and render lances useless, as many think of them even now, but actually useless)

P.P.S.
https://www.nexusmods.com/mountandblade2bannerlord/mods/1995

Mod in question so you can tune things for your liking,

[Triple G]

On a side note:

I have never seen the AI using a couched lance. They always stab with it - no matter if they´re e.g. Banner Knights or companions with a couchable lance.

They also wouldn´t use anything with the pilum head as javelin, but that is unrelated to the thread...

And then physics and gameplay probably have certain limits. I would favor something which makes all mace heads knock over the opponents - and not only the 2 wooden ones..

Originally posted by Iamnuff:

I've never seen a knockdown attack, on me or on enemies.

Do prison breaks with the wooden 2h hammer, which counts as civilian (while i don´t understand the "civilian" weapon thing either, when You can have civilian weapons, which do more damage than non civilian ones, as swords that is...). You will occasionally knock over the people, which looks quite funny, as they´re basically thrown away, which is why it´s the weapon of choice, as it´s nice if You knock over one guy, when You face 2 or 3, of simply hit another time, when they lay on the floor - besides that it will one hit certain opponents and has 108 swing speed if You craft it...

[Iamnuff]

Originally posted by Ardariel:

Originally posted by Iamnuff:

I've never seen a knockdown attack, on me or on enemies.
Edit: Wait, no. During a siege someone threw a rock at me and it did 75% of my hp and knocked me down.
Me belting a dude across the chest with a warhammer at like 40mph from horseback doesn't seem to do jack-all though.

That being said, what do you mean about blunt weapons? Do they just go through block entirely, or does just some of the damage go through?
I've been using a huge battleaxe this whole time, but maybe I should get a warhammer instead.

i believe only 2h mace can do it, and not every one of them.

Basically, if you want 2h weapons on horseback you have 3 options - glaive, bardiche and lance. Glaive fives you highest reach and speed to get to targets and highest damage output, often enemies wont even attempt to block, when you go sideways.

Bardiche strikes 2 units (if they are withing small distance of each other), which other weaponry cant

And lance is utilising momentum and ignore all non-shield blocks with huge damage, and have chance to strike several targets with corresponding perk, but require s[ecial stance.

Maces in this regard kinda falls short compared to lances and bardiches. Sure, it can crush through, but still onle strike one unit. And IIRC only with overhead strikes it can crush through. So you really gonna have better time with lance even w/o skills invested into it.
They are, however, are REALLY GOOD on foot, as long as you know how to keep proper distance (you still can hit em with a handle, and its not gonna do damage, but thats eas to avoid) You kinda sacrifice speed for surety of your strikes, which makes sense. But as i said earlier, i dont see reason to use them on horseback, bardiches will make short work of shields anyway, and w/o shield enemy units would fall down anyway to stagger and other units who strike them, letting you utilise openings.

I had a War Razor but I swapped it for an axe that I made myself because my Two Handed weapon skill was way higher than my Polearm weapon skill.

As for lances, I have a lot more trouble lining up a stab than a swing.
I've rode though enemy lines multiple times, fully crouches, and done contact-damage with my horse but hit nobody.
When you do hit them though, they explode for like 350 damage.

That being said, my axe does like 200 per swing, and these wide swings are much better for hitting infantry and cavalry alike.

If crush is only on overhead attacks, i guess it's worthless to me.
Might look into that mod.

[Action Man]

Originally posted by Iamnuff:

I've never seen a knockdown attack, on me or on enemies.
Edit: Wait, no. During a siege someone threw a rock at me and it did 75% of my hp and knocked me down.
Me belting a dude across the chest with a warhammer at like 40mph from horseback doesn't seem to do jack-all though.

That being said, what do you mean about blunt weapons? Do they just go through block entirely, or does just some of the damage go through?
I've been using a huge battleaxe this whole time, but maybe I should get a warhammer instead.

I wasn't referring to blunt weapons specifically - there's a mod I use that allows damage to carry through on all weapons. If someone is blocking with a weapon, it will reduce the damage, but not prevent it. The amount that gets through is customizable by the user.

https://www.nexusmods.com/mountandblade2bannerlord/mods/6678

It's not perfect, but I prefer this to how the vanilla game currently functions.

[Ardariel]

Originally posted by Triple G:

On a side note:

I have never seen the AI using a couched lance. They always stab with it - no matter if they´re e.g. Banner Knights or companions with a couchable lance.

They also wouldn´t use anything with the pilum head as javelin, but that is unrelated to the thread...

And then physics and gameplay probably have certain limits. I would favor something which makes all mace heads knock over the opponents - and not only the 2 wooden ones..

Originally posted by Iamnuff:

I've never seen a knockdown attack, on me or on enemies.

Do prison breaks with the wooden 2h hammer, which counts as civilian (while i don´t understand the "civilian" weapon thing either, when You can have civilian weapons, which do more damage than non civilian ones, as swords that is...). You will occasionally knock over the people, which looks quite funny, as they´re basically thrown away, which is why it´s the weapon of choice, as it´s nice if You knock over one guy, when You face 2 or 3, of simply hit another time, when they lay on the floor - besides that it will one hit certain opponents and has 108 swing speed if You craft it...

on "sivilian" side of things, its more about customs. Think of modern londen, for example. You would be arrested on a spot if you have firearm, but you can have some types of bladed weapon on you. They are MORE deadly, than firearmes (or in game terms - do more damage), yet they are "civilian", while firearms are not.
Same ♥♥♥♥ happened in middle ages aswell. Towns sometimes have specific regulations on what you can or can not have on your person when being in a town, and also often - what you SHOULD have in terms of weaponry. That results in people, who triy to work around the rules.

There is lso aspect of convinience. Its one thing to carry sword on your hip. Sure, it can stuck sometimes, but generally its not even noticable. And with sword you can defend yourself, while imagine carrying greatsword or pike. It really really inconvinience you. It also alert other people around you, cause you carry weaponry only purpose of which is to be used on battlefield (we will exclude bodyguards with 2h sword from it, as it is different thing they achieve with them, doing "crowd control", while also they too "alert" people around, but with purpose "do not come close").

so this is where all that "civilian" thing comes from. And sometimes it is really contradictory. But so was life. Every time tyou make some kind of system people would find a way around itor exploit it (look for all that "messer" type of sword business). So treat it as a "social contract" or "custom" type of thing.

[Ardariel]

Originally posted by Iamnuff:

Originally posted by Ardariel:

i believe only 2h mace can do it, and not every one of them.

Basically, if you want 2h weapons on horseback you have 3 options - glaive, bardiche and lance. Glaive fives you highest reach and speed to get to targets and highest damage output, often enemies wont even attempt to block, when you go sideways.

Bardiche strikes 2 units (if they are withing small distance of each other), which other weaponry cant

And lance is utilising momentum and ignore all non-shield blocks with huge damage, and have chance to strike several targets with corresponding perk, but require s[ecial stance.

Maces in this regard kinda falls short compared to lances and bardiches. Sure, it can crush through, but still onle strike one unit. And IIRC only with overhead strikes it can crush through. So you really gonna have better time with lance even w/o skills invested into it.
They are, however, are REALLY GOOD on foot, as long as you know how to keep proper distance (you still can hit em with a handle, and its not gonna do damage, but thats eas to avoid) You kinda sacrifice speed for surety of your strikes, which makes sense. But as i said earlier, i dont see reason to use them on horseback, bardiches will make short work of shields anyway, and w/o shield enemy units would fall down anyway to stagger and other units who strike them, letting you utilise openings.

I had a War Razor but I swapped it for an axe that I made myself because my Two Handed weapon skill was way higher than my Polearm weapon skill.

As for lances, I have a lot more trouble lining up a stab than a swing.
I've rode though enemy lines multiple times, fully crouches, and done contact-damage with my horse but hit nobody.
When you do hit them though, they explode for like 350 damage.

That being said, my axe does like 200 per swing, and these wide swings are much better for hitting infantry and cavalry alike.

If crush is only on overhead attacks, i guess it's worthless to me.
Might look into that mod.

switch it to bardiche then. Best you can do in such scenario i gather.

Also, about lances, they kinda "autohit" when you couch them, having WAAAAY more target tolerance than they should, so maybe you dont couch them on charge? Its not really obvious mechanic so it is understandable if you missed it. But you probably right with going 2h axe in this scenario, but also 2h weaponry is more of a "skirmush" oriented weaponry, than horseriding one. YOu still can be on horseback, but you supposed to be in a midst of things, so you kinda should have lots of targets anyway. And by that way you can also utilise 2h mace, if you want. Cause in middle of skirmich you can easily target several units with overhead, and often wont even have space to slash anyway.

[Triple G]

Originally posted by Ardariel:

on "sivilian" side of things, its more about customs. Think of modern londen, for example. You would be arrested on a spot if you have firearm, but you can have some types of bladed weapon on you. They are MORE deadly, than firearmes (or in game terms - do more damage), yet they are "civilian", while firearms are not.
Same ♥♥♥♥ happened in middle ages aswell. Towns sometimes have specific regulations on what you can or can not have on your person when being in a town, and also often - what you SHOULD have in terms of weaponry. That results in people, who triy to work around the rules.

Ah - haven´t thought about this. That might explain it - and then it somehow makes sense in a way.

[DoomSlayer]

Finally a post pointing this out. I find it very strange that a peasant with a hammer or pitchfork can block a war sword or axe by its wooden handle. Doesn't that seem strange? Overhead strike from a sharp & heavy axe or sword should easily break through (let alone break the weapon itself) any block by any primitive weapon like a hammer or pitchfork.

Prove me wrong. Makes no ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ logical sense.

[Fendelphi]

Originally posted by DoomSlayer:

Finally a post pointing this out. I find it very strange that a peasant with a hammer or pitchfork can block a war sword or axe by its wooden handle. Doesn't that seem strange? Overhead strike from a sharp & heavy axe or sword should easily break through (let alone break the weapon itself) any block by any primitive weapon like a hammer or pitchfork.

Prove me wrong. Makes no ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ logical sense.

By the same logic, your war sword or axe should chip and dull each time you strike. You might even be disarmed, as your weapon gets caught in a bad angle or gets stuck in a ribcage.(horse+rider moves forward, weapon stops, then something has to give)

In the end, it is all game mechanics. The better blocking was to make infantry last longer.
The alternative would be to make cavalry 4-5 times more expensive(which would also be realistic), but it would be much more frustrating that way(much more difficult to raise and maintain a cavalry group).

[Fendelphi]

Originally posted by Triple G:

On a side note:

I have never seen the AI using a couched lance. They always stab with it - no matter if they´re e.g. Banner Knights or companions with a couchable lance.

They also wouldn´t use anything with the pilum head as javelin, but that is unrelated to the thread...

And then physics and gameplay probably have certain limits. I would favor something which makes all mace heads knock over the opponents - and not only the 2 wooden ones..

Originally posted by Iamnuff:

I've never seen a knockdown attack, on me or on enemies.

Do prison breaks with the wooden 2h hammer, which counts as civilian (while i don´t understand the "civilian" weapon thing either, when You can have civilian weapons, which do more damage than non civilian ones, as swords that is...). You will occasionally knock over the people, which looks quite funny, as they´re basically thrown away, which is why it´s the weapon of choice, as it´s nice if You knock over one guy, when You face 2 or 3, of simply hit another time, when they lay on the floor - besides that it will one hit certain opponents and has 108 swing speed if You craft it...

They do from time to time(I have died to it), but going into the couched stance requires a decent amount of speed to enable it and greatly limits mobility(very limited "steering"). So it is only usable in straight charges. When they are circling around, or have too low speed, they will only stab.