Tournament AI

[Kernist]

Listen, I understand that AI in tournaments had to be improved, it was a joke, but now it's not fun when some random ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ infantry blocks 30 of your attacks in a row with 2-handed weapon. Changing difficulty from "I can beat the final round with my fists" to "AI predicts my movement even before I press the attack" is so stupid and infuriating that I lost any will to play the game further.

It's not just a skill issue. I was ranked diamond in Mordhau. I can block from correct direction like 10-20 times in a row even against other lords. I can't beat cheating AI though.

[McShlisy]

Ya it sucked ass for me too. But I noticed when I changed the Combat AI from challenging to normal it went back to kind of the way it used to be, went with veteran in the end and it just seems to be the sweet spot for me, try that and see if it makes it less tedious. They still block at times but not like "challenging" is which just turns it into a block simulator 2023.

[Ruffio]

Once you get athletic skill up, they become a cake walk.

[TruXurT]

Originally posted by LEGACY:

IMO it's still not hard enough.
I shouldn't be able to beat lords with 200+ one handed skill so easily
while I only have 25 skill.

there are too many tournaments and the rewards are way to good.
it's pretty much the first thing I do every playthrough, become the arena master
just because it's so easy and so rewarding.

the very first perk in one handed makes a huge difference btw

You are either:

A) Not playing on challenging AI combat difficulty
B) Trolling
C) Enjoy suffering and thinking everyone in the world should suffer too

Like some other fun activities in life, not everyone feels like they have to suffer and be punished in order to have some fun.

As it is right now, the game lacks an easy mode (The challenging mode used to be an easy mode before, but not in this version)

Normal mode, which is right now the easiest you can pick, provides a challenge that should be a medium difficulty.

Veteran is a hard difficulty.

Challenging is a very hard difficulty.

To have the broadest appeal I think it wouldn't hurt to have easier mode. If you find current challenging mode "too easy" then I suppose so are games like Dark Souls. Maybe hit the gym for a real challenge.

[Wingnut Mcmoomoo]

they aren't cheating, if you swap to auto direction on block so you only have to press the timing you can do the exact thing they are. It will probably feel best if you do that. Otherwise you need increased handling or to change up your attacks to win. Most of the time the AI will start to get hit if you swap from over heads to swings at their offhand.

Just ran a bunch of tournies yesterday, they feel really good on bannerlord difficulty

ALSO THEY DONT' PREDICT YOUR MOVEMENTS... JUST ALTERNATE BETWEEN OVERHEADS AND SIDE ATTACKS AND YOU'LL HIT. (I swear people will do the same attack 7 times and be shocked that the ai blocks it each time)

[Wingnut Mcmoomoo]

Originally posted by TruXurT:

Originally posted by LEGACY:

IMO it's still not hard enough.
I shouldn't be able to beat lords with 200+ one handed skill so easily
while I only have 25 skill.

there are too many tournaments and the rewards are way to good.
it's pretty much the first thing I do every playthrough, become the arena master
just because it's so easy and so rewarding.

the very first perk in one handed makes a huge difference btw

You are either:

A) Not playing on challenging AI combat difficulty
B) Trolling
C) Enjoy suffering and thinking everyone in the world should suffer too

Like some other fun activities in life, not everyone feels like they have to suffer and be punished in order to have some fun.

As it is right now, the game lacks an easy mode (The challenging mode used to be an easy mode before, but not in this version)

Normal mode, which is right now the easiest you can pick, provides a challenge that should be a medium difficulty.

Veteran is a hard difficulty.

Challenging is a very hard difficulty.

To have the broadest appeal I think it wouldn't hurt to have easier mode. If you find current challenging mode "too easy" then I suppose so are games like Dark Souls. Maybe hit the gym for a real challenge.

they are beatable with 25 in a skill, it just takes a while and you have to be able to block everything they do. I only play on bannerlord difficulty and the ai isn't unbeatable and you can beat them with much lower skill its just... rough... and if you mess up and get out of position its over if its a 2 handed weapon fight. Shield fights or 1 handed fights are still pretty easy just take longer.

also yeah like Legacy said, weapon handling makes a HUGE difference... with that bit of a bump in speed you can start beating the ai to the punch and swinging when they do to land hits.

edit just to say i use auto direction for blocking because the game feels best that way since the ai can feint so much and so fast that playing with auto direction on block makes you feel like you're playing the same way the ai is

last edit just to say, not everyone turns up the difficulty because "they enjoy pain". Its a series thats been out for 15 years so some people are just good at the game.

[TruXurT]

Do you think "beatable" = "too easy" or "just right"?

I have no issue with people wanting some challenge, but I think the game should offer a spectrum of difficulties so everyone can enjoy the game. Right now the difficulty shifted across the board and all the duels are harder (this is not just an arena issue).

I think even "insane" difficulty twice as hard as current "challenging" would not satisfy some of you, but all I am saying that for other players "casual" difficulty is missing.

And since we are talking about single player campaign, the fact that someone wants to breeze through the game, should not hurt you.

[Kernist]

Since this thread got a lot of response, I will expand my thoughts after playing a bit more with this update (bannerlord difficulty).

Yes, AI is beatable and can be cheesed. Before patch it was also beatable and could be cheesed. The difference is before patch you fought normally and AI was way too easy, now you need to result to spin attacks, spamming LMB in chance of hitting enemy while he hesitated long enough for you to hit first and attacking fast enough not to block, and using obstacles to nullify enemy's attacks (like edge of the wall for example).

Unfortunately the previous AI was more fun. It felt kinda realistic. Yes, it was way too easy, but you didn't have to resolve to dirty tactics like spinning that breaks immersion. It was good decision to improve AI, but they went way too far.

Since I don't like to only criticize without giving any feedback, here are my ideas how to improve difficulty in tournaments:

1. Difficulty should scale with the skill of the unit, not the number of the round. In cases of 4 teams with 4 unit fights I liked to aim at the stronger parties so I could get rid of them early and avoid fighting them later. After the patch it's pointless because tier 2 infantry in final round is better than any lord in the first round.

2. Tone down blocking a bit. Yeah, I agree skilled unit should be good at blocking your attacks but not 20 of them in a row. In my opinion for very skilled unit there should be something like 20% chance of making mistake (blocking in wrong direction or attacking when you attacked first). This point refers mostly to 2-handed fights.

3. In case of shield fights I would improve 2 aspects already in the game: kicking and chamber blocking. Kicking right now isn't good, it deals like 2 damage and the unit always have enough time to block after kick. Regarding kicking I would either make it so it deals heavy damage to shield if enemy blocked or it gives you an easy window to attack without making it possible to block. Regarding chamber blocking it should be easier to execute. Right now the risk is too high and the reward is too low. I experimented with it a bit (not too much though) and I couldn't consistently chamber block for attempts to be worth it.

4. In case of spear on horse fighting I would totally remove a possibility to block a lance with a lance, it was always stupid. When I charge with full speed while thrusting a spear enemies should not be able to block it with a 10cm diameter stick. It was always stupid, but now it also makes winning jousting duel impossible to win unless you are going for the horse.

While I am on it, I also have few ideas regarding how to improve tournaments in general:

1. Revamp reward system. It is so stupid it is easy to get a very powerful horse or helmet but you never can get a bow or a crossbow. Every weapon/mount etc. of every tier should be available as a reward however chance for high tier reward should be very, very low with its chance increasing depending on how powerful units are in the tournament. Also reward should be fixed as soon as tournament is available so there won't be a point in reloading just to generate a better reward.

2. Add shooting competitions and joust tournaments. Shooting competitions could be with either bow/crossbow/thrown weapon with the rules to be either shooting at target 3 times and getting the best score (like in normal archery) or with hitting all targets as fast as possible. Regarding joust tournaments 2 knights should charge at each other. Hitting arm/leg could give you 1 point, hitting torso/shoulder 2 points and hitting neck/head 3 points. There could be additional point for knocking enemy of the horse. The duel could consist of 3 rounds.

3. There should be one additional round with 32 players and also there should be a possibility of a team of 8 units. I think it would be interesting to have 8v8 fights from time to time.

4. If tournament is won by the hero from your party you should get the item reward anyway, but not betting gold or renown.

That's all for now, I am eager to know what you guys think about all of this.

[Cassian]

wtf, looters block 98% now. 2 looters is a death sentence....lame!

[kristianjakob]

Originally posted by Kernist:

4. If tournament is won by the hero from your party you should get the item reward anyway, but not betting gold or renown.

This is already the case. Infact, you can do even better, coinwise.

If you remove you toughest fighters from your party, before participating, and one of them wins; instead of gaining the item you gain the full value of the item instead.

[Kernist]

Originally posted by kristianjakob:

Originally posted by Kernist:

4. If tournament is won by the hero from your party you should get the item reward anyway, but not betting gold or renown.

This is already the case. Infact, you can do even better, coinwise.

If you remove you toughest fighters from your party, before participating, and one of them wins; instead of gaining the item you gain the full value of the item instead.

Ok, when I played long time ago it didn't work like that and in my current playthrough I never let anyone else win so I wasn't sure about that. Thanks for clarifying.

[kristianjakob]

Originally posted by Kernist:

Originally posted by kristianjakob:

This is already the case. Infact, you can do even better, coinwise.

If you remove you toughest fighters from your party, before participating, and one of them wins; instead of gaining the item you gain the full value of the item instead.

Ok, when I played long time ago it didn't work like that and in my current playthrough I never let anyone else win so I wasn't sure about that. Thanks for clarifying.

There is no good reason that anyone should ever know this/figure this out:)

[markus_koen]

omg I totally agree, my feeling of combat has changed completely. So now the only way to win is to use the fastest weapon just to get ahead the opponents animations. Hell, most of them fight as well as Caladog, that makes multiplies to zero my players skill, feeling of timings and my leveling progress. I can only imagine how much pain I will get in the beginning of the new campaign.

[Canned2na]

It used to be you would be able to win every tournament with your eyes closed even without the first handling perks from 2h and 1h, now when youre up against a tier 5 or lord they play like its friggen multiplayer lmao
Can't say where I stand on it, I always play Bannerlord difficulty too. I mean tourneys should be hard, but taking down a lord at low level seems impossible 1v1 as is. I'd say stick to Battanian or Vlandian tourneys as they can still be cheesed easily, but the Sturgian and Empire tourneys are fkn cracked right now, wouldnt recommend for low level combat skills. Also someone else already said it but looters are impossible to take out with just a spear and horseback, been like that for awhile now on the beta branch but seriously every single looter parrying a spearman mounted on horseback every single time is kinda crazy.

[Action Man]

I don't mind the AI actually using their shield to block. Yea, it makes those empire tourneys petty tedious, but I'd rather fights change to account for it so there aren't so many 1v1 patty cake shield fights. Shields aren't as annoying when you have others around so you can flank.

I'm of the same mind as others - tournaments need more variety to them. I'm sure we can all come up with various things we'd like, but just give us more fight variation.

I'm fine with getting parried. I do find it annoying that the AI can just hold their weapon on guard and block any attack from a non-crushing weapon. I would like to see something done about that. Smaller and/or low grade weapons shouldn't be able to absorb every single impact.

[MechaShiva]

The insane perfect blocking is one thing, but it also seems like they have instant recovery now? I have 288 athletic skill and the level 275 perk "mighty blow" says it "increases the stun time after an opponent blocks your attack", but since patch AI seems to recover instantly, even from stun kick, and you still can't get any hits in around their crazy blocking. Also I should be much faster than most any enemy with 288 athletics, but seemingly in tournaments I can't outrun NPCs anymore. Just seems off.