Came back to this game after 2 years to see the Khuzait Kahn Guard is still OP

[War Machine]

I haven't played this game in almost 2 years in part because the Khuzait Kahn's Guard (and horse archers in general) were completely broken and OP, so it took away most of the strategy of battle if you can just mass produce horse archers to win every exchange.... So I was waiting in hopes that the game would be more balanced.

I came back to this game 2 years later to see the Khuzait Kahn's Guard is still OP.

I tested a custom battle of 400 Khuzait Kahn's Guard vs a balanced army of 400 Vlandians. The Khuzait Kahn's Guard slaughtered them, killing 389 units, while only losing 34 men.

Why bother building an interesting balanced army using advanced tactics/formations if you can just mass produce horse archers set to auto "delegate command" and they win every time? They don't even require any micro.


https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3038386907


https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3038386974

[kristianjakob]

Super easy fix to the problem.


Dont use them.

[Urmel]

400 vs 400 is stupid

1) khans guard is one tier higher cawse noble elite
2) khans guard need +horse and + war horse upgades
(a battanian fian or vlandian crossbow-man dont need a horse)

so a 400 vs 800 or more is much more balanced / fair.
you dont need to show me a battle 400 vs 800, i dont care. if you dont like it, dont use it.

edit: you cant buy 400 horses and 400 war horses in the next shop of any town.... that needs much time and money to collect all requirements. if you dont have 400 war horses you dont have 400 khan guards.

[Lokaol 勝]

I understand your point, but isn't it easier to just not use the troops? the game is single player
And the NPCS will always have mixed troops, never 1 of the same type, so... just don't use them...

[Darklight]

If there was ever going to be a unit that was on top it's always going to be horse archers. All the benefits of an archer with none of the drawbacks.

A 400 of the best unit vs a 400 mixed bag of units is not a fair test TBH. A lot of those units aren't a counter to horse archers, or even close to the same caliber of value. If it was all elite calvary, you'd likely get a closer result but again horse archers are always going to just be strong. Range units that can kite is just powerful.

You have an active choice not to use them though, you can use a mix bag army yourself.

[The Clown]

you nerf Khuzait Kahn Guard what will the Khuzait have?

[War Machine]

A couple things:

-It's not exactly realistic how disproportionately overpowered horse archers are in this game. Why? Because in real life, arrows wouldn't even be able to penetrate through certain types of heavy armor. So (in my opinion), arrows should do significantly less damage to certain types of heavy armor.

-Saying "Just don't use it bro" misses the point of calling out balance and army composition diversity.

-Okay, if you think that it's an unfair test because the Khuzait Kahn's Guard is an elite unit, then please present another 400 vs 400 scenario with any combination of units who are also elite and better for countering horse archers that you'd like. Is there even such a thing as a unit that counters horse archers in this game?

[Ruffio]

Originally posted by War Machine:

A couple things:

-It's not exactly realistic how disproportionately overpowered horse archers are in this game. Why? Because in real life, arrows wouldn't even be able to penetrate through certain types of heavy armor. So (in my opinion), arrows should do significantly less damage to certain types of heavy armor.

The best armor you have in Bannerlord is Lamellar. Lamellar typical have limited coverage and gaps where arrows can penetrate.

[Darklight]

Originally posted by War Machine:

A couple things:

-It's not exactly realistic how disproportionately overpowered horse archers are in this game. Why? Because in real life, arrows wouldn't even be able to penetrate through certain types of heavy armor. So (in my opinion), arrows should do significantly less damage to certain types of heavy armor.

-Saying "Just don't use it bro" misses the point of calling out balance and army composition diversity.

-Okay, if you think that it's an unfair test because the Khuzait Kahn's Guard is an elite unit, then please present another 400 vs 400 scenario with any combination of units who are also elite and better for countering horse archers that you'd like. Is there even such a thing as a unit that counters horse archers in this game?

Horse archers being strong is extremely realistic. They were essentially doing modern warfare in ancients time of hit and run and mobility and range. The steppe nomads were extremely feared simply because of them, the Huns conquered so much and destroyed so much because of them.

Even the Roman Empire had no clue how to counter them for the longest time and paid tribute to them to avoid a fight. It wasn't until the Romans and other European nations started cooperating did they push them out and Western armies in regards to this game were as balanced as you could get, tons of Infantry, tons of Calvary, Archers, etc.

They would just bait out the Calvary out of range of their Infantry and Archer support, decimate them and pick off the rest with their mobility. If the Calvary went back in range of their support, the horse archers would just go back and keep harassing, rinse and repeat.

I agree that its more fun when armies are more diverse and aren't just horse archer spam but the AI's armies aren't just Khan Gaurd spam, the player has a choice on what his army comp is, so I have no idea what your point is.

The problem with your test is that 400 vs 400 is fine if you want to test out which unit is better than the other. If you had done 400 elite vlandian cav, the result would have likely not have been as one sided because they actually have the mobility to chase and get kills, but they are still fighting elite horse archers at the end of the day that can kite so likely would have still lost.

However, you already know they are at the top. If you want a proper test if you have to factor cost. What's X value of Khan Guard's vs X value of vlandian cav and crossbows or x value of whatever army comp you think could beat them or stand a chance to.

[War Machine]

Originally posted by Darklight:

The problem with your test is that 400 vs 400 is fine if you want to test out which unit is better than the other. If you had done 400 elite vlandian cav, the result would have likely not have been as one sided

I just tested the best elite vlandian cav 400 v 400, and it was still wildly, disappointingly, crushingly, one-sided. Like not even a challenge... And I didn't even micro the units. Just set them to auto "delegate command"

I'm genuinely challenging anyone to come up with ANY combination of units that can beat the Khuzait Kahn's guard. I'm convinced there is no such thing as a counter to horse archers in this game.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3039032354

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3039032248

[kristianjakob]

Originally posted by War Machine:

Originally posted by Darklight:

The problem with your test is that 400 vs 400 is fine if you want to test out which unit is better than the other. If you had done 400 elite vlandian cav, the result would have likely not have been as one sided

I just tested the best elite vlandian cav 400 v 400, and it was still wildly, disappointingly, crushingly, one-sided. Like not even a challenge... And I didn't even micro the units. Just set them to auto "delegate command"

I'm genuinely challenging anyone to come up with ANY combination of units that can beat the Khuzait Kahn's guard. I'm convinced there is no such thing as a counter to horse archers in this game.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3039032354

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3039032248

Just be thankful that it was only a simulated battle.

Actually loosing 111 KG in a single battle would be a calamity of epic proportions in an actual campaign, no matter the odds.

[Ruffio]

Those type of staged fights is silly. Because when you play the game, you don't run into those situations to start with.

Pitching unit types that from the get go have whole different purposes is bad. Horse archers typical fought as light skimrish with hit and run tactics.

Faced by knights such as this, you better run away, or just dismount and fight behind the cover of a shield wall with pointy sticks, or within a forest where mounted knights is pointless etc.

[flyingscot1066]

https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198042580118/screenshot/2071149263374054193/

1000 v 1000 KGs vs Fian Champs.
Open field.
F6 only (in fact I died right at the start so completely leaderless)

Fians wiped the FLOOR with the HAs.

[Urmel]

go and make the same stupid fight on a long bridge or when right and left are high mountains and you are forced to meele.

on open tairrain without trees / mountains, whatever, a bow have a big advantage.
thats nothing new. you cant always decide where you want to fight.

edit:
hahahahhhha ! thats funny with the fians vs K-guard. but the war machine guy will take this like a proof the game is "completly broken" and nobody need no strategy...

[ShadowFox]

'strong units are strong' yea... sounds about right lol