horse archers not shooting

[Drukaris]

they just dont fire
then i reload the game and they do
even tho im doing the same thing as before

bug? and advice on how to un-♥♥♥♥ it in game? get really tedious to reload every other battle

[Darth Revan]

Did you press F4 by chance?

[Drukaris]

Originally posted by Legatus Lucanus:

Did you press F4 by chance?

yes multiple times but switching between hold fire and fire at will does nothing in that case

[Excellion]

First the obligatory "Do you have any mods active?" question.

Beyond that:
- Do the horse archers actually have their bows equipped, or are they stuck wielding their melee gear?
- Does ordering them to dismount fix anything? Or will they just turn into stationary foot archers who don't shoot?
- Does the game believe they have arrows? (The bar under the formation when pressing TAB should be white)

[Drukaris]

Originally posted by Excellion:

First the obligatory "Do you have any mods active?" question.

Beyond that:
- Do the horse archers actually have their bows equipped, or are they stuck wielding their melee gear?
- Does ordering them to dismount fix anything? Or will they just turn into stationary foot archers who don't shoot?
- Does the game believe they have arrows? (The bar under the formation when pressing TAB should be white)

- no mods
- i did not try to dismount them yet - however if they are stationary while on horse they do shoot until i order them to follow me again
- they have arrows

i also noticed they actually aim their bows sometimes (although not as frequently as usually), but then they stop aiming and dont shoot

also yes they are in range but not too close and no the enemy is not in a weird angle behind them

[ShepherdOfCats]

Not sure if you already know this but F4 is advance (skirmish). they will move towards the enemy and then fire as they move away. HOWEVER, the AI is not great at this, and they do tend to cancel their shots quite a bit because of the constant turning-around that they do.

If you tell them to charge while they are in ranged-mode, they will circle the enemy and fire.

[Morkonan]

Originally posted by Drukaris:

...
i also noticed they actually aim their bows sometimes (although not as frequently as usually), but then they stop aiming and dont shoot
..

What HA Units are they?

What you describe above is part of target-seeking behavior. You may see it occasionally, especially with mounted-melee units attempting to move through a crowd. They'll rapidly look around at nearby targets, but their selected target to move towards is currently out-of-range and they can't reach combat distance.

Are these HA units mixed-weapon units? IOW, what's their load-out in terms of weapons? TW's has issues in tagetting behavior with mounted units with mixed weapons types and has always had issues with that behavior, even in Warband. (It's that it seems that such units can sometimes get confused about what weapon they should use given their target and range or weapon swaps get glitched due to the same behavior. )

And, just to be sure, are you using any mod that mods units or their equipment or have you ever used any such mod, EVAR? :)

[Drukaris]

Originally posted by Morkonan:

Originally posted by Drukaris:

...
i also noticed they actually aim their bows sometimes (although not as frequently as usually), but then they stop aiming and dont shoot
..

What HA Units are they?

What you describe above is part of target-seeking behavior. You may see it occasionally, especially with mounted-melee units attempting to move through a crowd. They'll rapidly look around at nearby targets, but their selected target to move towards is currently out-of-range and they can't reach combat distance.

Are these HA units mixed-weapon units? IOW, what's their load-out in terms of weapons? TW's has issues in tagetting behavior with mounted units with mixed weapons types and has always had issues with that behavior, even in Warband. (It's that it seems that such units can sometimes get confused about what weapon they should use given their target and range or weapon swaps get glitched due to the same behavior. )

And, just to be sure, are you using any mod that mods units or their equipment or have you ever used any such mod, EVAR? :)

no mods at all
kuhzait qanqli units
i have 10 of them
i order them to follow me and then ride circles around the enemy
50/50 if they start shooting at the looters right away as one would expect or not at all

it must be something funky with the ai

one thing i found is if i get my HA to follow directly behind me and the looter behind the horse archers (so that me, the HA and the looters are in a straight line) they actually start to shoot and after they "locked on" i can start to ride in circles around the enemy again with everything working as expected

after that it doesnt matter how close i get, the boys are shootin and almost never changing to melee

[ShepherdOfCats]

I'll be honest I usually don't use follow-me for horse archers, usually it's charge so they do the circle-attack. (if you order them to charge while they have arrows equipped, they will circle and fire, but if they are in melee mode they will charge into the enemy's ranks)If I need to pull them back I will tell them to follow, but I think the AI just generally gets confused about what you want them to do when they follow you.

[Morkonan]

Originally posted by Drukaris:

...

no mods at all
kuhzait qanqli units
i have 10 of them
i order them to follow me and then ride circles around the enemy
50/50 if they start shooting at the looters right away as one would expect or not at all

it must be something funky with the ai

one thing i found is if i get my HA to follow directly behind me and the looter behind the horse archers (so that me, the HA and the looters are in a straight line) they actually start to shoot and after they "locked on" i can start to ride in circles around the enemy again with everything working as expected

after that it doesnt matter how close i get, the boys are shootin and almost never changing to melee

This unit?

https://mountandblade.fandom.com/wiki/Khuzait_Qanqli

What's their equipment load-out? Wikis/internetz unit descriptions are not always accurate. (Usually not accurate...)

Are they armed with a polearm? Lance? Spear? (Some long weapon, IOW)

If you aren't moving and tell them to move to a spot and they are stationary compared to the group of Looters moving towards you, what do they do? Do they start firing when the enemy gets in range or do they seem to just sit there for a bit too long?

[Drukaris]

Originally posted by ShepherdOfCats:

I'll be honest I usually don't use follow-me for horse archers, usually it's charge so they do the circle-attack. (if you order them to charge while they have arrows equipped, they will circle and fire, but if they are in melee mode they will charge into the enemy's ranks)If I need to pull them back I will tell them to follow, but I think the AI just generally gets confused about what you want them to do when they follow you.

im a trader so id rather have them do exactly what i want instead of one or two of my guys randomly deciding that it would be a great idea to ride directly into the enemy, engage in melee and die

Originally posted by Morkonan:

Originally posted by Drukaris:

...

no mods at all
kuhzait qanqli units
i have 10 of them
i order them to follow me and then ride circles around the enemy
50/50 if they start shooting at the looters right away as one would expect or not at all

it must be something funky with the ai

one thing i found is if i get my HA to follow directly behind me and the looter behind the horse archers (so that me, the HA and the looters are in a straight line) they actually start to shoot and after they "locked on" i can start to ride in circles around the enemy again with everything working as expected

after that it doesnt matter how close i get, the boys are shootin and almost never changing to melee

This unit?

https://mountandblade.fandom.com/wiki/Khuzait_Qanqli

What's their equipment load-out? Wikis/internetz unit descriptions are not always accurate. (Usually not accurate...)

Are they armed with a polearm? Lance? Spear? (Some long weapon, IOW)

If you aren't moving and tell them to move to a spot and they are stationary compared to the group of Looters moving towards you, what do they do? Do they start firing when the enemy gets in range or do they seem to just sit there for a bit too long?

yeah thats them
they have a bow, a 168 lenght spear and saber
and yes if they are stationary they usually fire

when theyve done that and then tell them to follow me its 50/50 again if they keep firing or not

and to add to that, if they dont fire they still keep their bowsa in hand - no weapon switching or anything

[V Hubris LOL]

Horse archers have worked fine for me in the past. I use f6 so they command themselves

[Morkonan]

Originally posted by Drukaris:

..
and to add to that, if they dont fire they still keep their bowsa in hand - no weapon switching or anything

TW's weapon-switching issues are that they don't... :) At least when there's a problem. So, they'll target for, let's say, their lance/spear. They've selected that target and they have to close distance until their weapon is within the distance of the enemy unit's weapon reach.

Then, they'll get intercepted/blocked by a melee unit on the ground, but won't switch weapons because they still have their attack "job" and that target is still on the other side of the battle scene... Wat do? The mounted unit will go into a head-swivel, looking at all the foot units attacking them and their mount, while still trying to reach that lance-target on the other side of the battle-scene... instead of switching to their uber-sword and laying waste to the peasants...

It's probably a range thing and the HA aren't updating/scanning for targets as frequently as they maybe should. Compare results with newer play vids to see if you can spot any key differences. (Gotta rush off, may finish later.)

Edit:Add - Some assumptions:

One thing I assume is that Group AI during a Follow Command is handling all the "following." I assume it's handling that job by using the player as a constant "go to" point. Unit AI does the targeting/firing/fighting stuffs and receives group behavior orders from the Group AI and, maybe, some location/group-center stuff, idontknowstuffs. One issue may be that since a target in front of the Unit, who's doing the choosing, could still be a valid attack for both bow and melee, there's an argument going on... ie: "Is the player moving to that unit" kind of thing. But, when that target is behind the unit making the decisions, there is only one weighted choice - Missile. It could also all be due to the update speed of target choosing, which is a performance kind of tweak. Again, just something I assume. (Could also mean more Follow Group AI commands to the individual Units are forcing them out of their target-choosing behavior, perhaps?? Another assumption due to a lack of detailed info on Banderlodz "A.I." :))

If this is not a unique issue, not a issue bound to hardware limitations or bugs, not a mod/corruption issue, you should be able to use the Follow Me command and try skirting the blob of Looters at different distances. IF I'm kinda correct, maybe, you should see your HA choose to fire when further away from the blob of Looters during the initial engagement. So, start off by ordering the HA to follow you on a path that flanks the enemy blob from good distance, but do not "stop" or loiter much at one distance, but then slowly decrease the distance by spiraling in (not directly moving in), shortening your flanking distance. At some point the HA should show signs of different behavior and that's when you can get an idea of what range it takes to trigger them. Doesn't mean they will fire, tho... But, you may see them "acting different."

I don't recall noting this behavior, but over time I've given up on mucking about with Commander/Group/Actor AI. My experience with any new patches are limited. ("Start gaem, is doz still be look broked?" yes=>exit) It's a petri-dish of stuff that I don't want to dwell on, anymore.

PS: IF you can split or combine another HA-type unit that has a different loadout and note any differences in behavior, that could be very illuminating.

[Kharn the Bloody]

I've noticed this happening a lot with all formations. The only fix I've found is to order the formation that wont fire to follow you, then reissue the "fire at will" order. Then tell them to attack or whatever you had them doing prior.

[Morkonan]

Originally posted by Kharn the Bloody:

I've noticed this happening a lot with all formations. The only fix I've found is to order the formation that wont fire to follow you, then reissue the "fire at will" order. Then tell them to attack or whatever you had them doing prior.

If you don't re-issue the Fire At Will order, will they ever... fire at will after they have been placed on a Follow Order? Or, does it only happen if they get attacked or come within weapon range of an enemy's weapon?

[Drukaris]

Originally posted by Kharn the Bloody:

I've noticed this happening a lot with all formations. The only fix I've found is to order the formation that wont fire to follow you, then reissue the "fire at will" order. Then tell them to attack or whatever you had them doing prior.

that sadly doesnt work in my case

Originally posted by Morkonan:

...

its so weird man

when i command them to go somewhere they start shooting
if i then say "follow me" they stop again
(if the whole shooty thingy problem was present in the first place)

however after some testing i can reliably avoid the issue by having my HA wait at the starting point without any commands until they start shooting at the looters (thank good they always come at you) and after that they will ALWAYS keep firing when im giving the follow me command

im starting to wonder if it has something to do with me having only 10 units so maybe im not technnically considered their group captain/commander or whatever and thats whats confusing them on top of the "usual probelms"

gonna test that later by getting more guys