Why Rocks doing so much dmg even when having full armor?

[Kael]

Yea - i am wondering. I am doing HEMA. And tbh - i get hit by 2-handed Polearms on my head with full speed but still wont have any damage from it.
Now - o ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ rock, on an 48 Armor helmets, still does like 7 dmg?

[Kael]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Brother Santodes:

Diposting pertama kali oleh bloodymonarch:

Okay, was the stone picked up with two hands and heaved at the king from two feet away or was it a hand sized stone you can actually throw across a field? Again, these things matter.

See, the thing about a good fighter in that scenario is that he would be clutching at that horse with his thighs for everything he is worth to not be dragged or fall out of the saddle surrounded by bad guys. A hand tossed stone the size of looter stones would do nothing to unhorse such a man. Conversely, a giant stone lifted by two hands and heaved into your whole torso would probably be something that would do the trick.

you scare me a bit here...
who knows...
it's history is pure luck that is was even preserved.

how likely is a king taking of his helmet in a do or die situation? i haven't see any word of any other injure.
how highly is it that a person would use both it's hands in an active melee not yet won?

he and his knight where supposedly fighting intentionally dismounted so no he didn't fall of a horse because a rock hit him.

People in Medieval times had done many things.
Lemme give you an example:

in WW2, german tank commanders tend to stay out of the hatch to get a better visual field AND the risk of getting hurt. Because if you got hurt while fighting it was honored, also it showed your comrades in the tank that you are fearless in front of the enemy. Which could extremly boost morale.

So if you have a king, going straightforward without his helmet ,in the situation where moral maybe was low, he also showed fearlessly and faith in god.

[Brother Santodes]

he breaks two weapon is surround but there is more than enough time to remove your helmet you are a king the most important person that that battle field sure why wouldn't the enemy give you a small tea break in the middle of a melee.

just because there is a >story< of a king or general or what ever that did something like that.
after falling of this horse he was not in active combat at that time.

[Clovis Sangrail]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Action Man:

This is rapidly becoming my favorite thread here.

Indeed. This has become one of the best "nerds argue about looters' rocks" discussion ever. Certainly one of the longest.

Here's an interesting article from National Geographic to ponder -- "Ancient Slingshot Was as Deadly as a .44 Magnum" -- https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/ancient-slingshot-lethal-44-magnum-scotland

Gentlemen -- Discuss

[Duncan]

Diposting pertama kali oleh 🅶 I|I Kael π:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Khergit Horse Archer:

i consulted our machine god

and it* spoketh the truth:

It is difficult to give an exact answer as there are many variables that can affect the force imparted on the helmet, such as the mass and velocity of the stone, the distance it is thrown from, and the angle of impact.

However, we can make some rough estimations based on typical values. An average palm-sized stone may have a mass of around 0.5 kg (1.1 lbs), and assuming an average throwing velocity of 20 m/s (44.7 mph), we can calculate the kinetic energy of the stone as follows:

KE = 1/2 * m * v^2
KE = 1/2 * 0.5 kg * (20 m/s)^2
KE = 100 J

This means that the stone would impart roughly 100 joules of energy onto the helmet upon impact. However, this energy would be spread out over the surface area of the helmet, and would also depend on the angle of impact. It is likely that the helmet would absorb much of the energy, and the force experienced by the wearer would depend on how well-padded the helmet was and how well-fitted it was to the wearer's head.

For the best case scenario, let's assume that the stone is thrown at a relatively flat angle and strikes the helmet near its top surface, which is one of the strongest parts of the helmet. In this case, the force of the impact would be spread out over a relatively large area and the helmet would be able to absorb much of the energy. As a result, the force experienced by the wearer would likely be relatively low, and the helmet may only dent or deform slightly. In this scenario, the force imparted on the helmet might be around 100-200 Newtons (22-45 pounds of force).

For the worst case scenario, let's assume that the stone is thrown at a high velocity and strikes the helmet at a sharp angle, such as near its edge or at its weakest point. In this case, the force of the impact would be concentrated over a smaller area, and the helmet may not be able to absorb as much of the energy. The force experienced by the wearer would be much higher, and the helmet may crack or even split open. In this scenario, the force imparted on the helmet might be several thousand Newtons (hundreds of pounds of force).

Nice explanation. But also: Could the Rock even withstand itself such kind of force? I mean by that: Rocks are simply 'weaker' than iron or steel. So if the Rock hits the helmet, wouldnt be the energy from the rock, hitting the helmet, used against itself and this would get the rock itself to 'break'?

Also - the same thing you say here works with arrows. Arrows could penetrate armor but in medieval times regularly havent done it. Simply because you never got a perfect angle to it or other circumstances. Also Arrows had a much higher Joule-rating then a thrown rock.

But one of my main arguments why this wont work out - was also that the rock would split itself when hitting the metal. So it cant use the force it maybe has, because it breaks earlier.

It doesn't work like this. Just because rock is "weaker" than steel does not mean it can't be used to damage it. You can effectively trash a car with a wooden baseball bat.

[Wizard of Woz]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Clovis Sangrail:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Action Man:

This is rapidly becoming my favorite thread here.

Indeed. This has become one of the best "nerds argue about looters' rocks" discussion ever. Certainly one of the longest.

Here's an interesting article from National Geographic to ponder -- "Ancient Slingshot Was as Deadly as a .44 Magnum" -- https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/ancient-slingshot-lethal-44-magnum-scotland

Gentlemen -- Discuss

We aren't talking about slings, stop bringing it up.

[flyingscot1066]

Diposting pertama kali oleh 🅶 I|I Kael π:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Khergit Horse Archer:

i consulted our machine god

and it* spoketh the truth:

It is difficult to give an exact answer as there are many variables that can affect the force imparted on the helmet, such as the mass and velocity of the stone, the distance it is thrown from, and the angle of impact.

However, we can make some rough estimations based on typical values. An average palm-sized stone may have a mass of around 0.5 kg (1.1 lbs), and assuming an average throwing velocity of 20 m/s (44.7 mph), we can calculate the kinetic energy of the stone as follows:

KE = 1/2 * m * v^2
KE = 1/2 * 0.5 kg * (20 m/s)^2
KE = 100 J

This means that the stone would impart roughly 100 joules of energy onto the helmet upon impact. However, this energy would be spread out over the surface area of the helmet, and would also depend on the angle of impact. It is likely that the helmet would absorb much of the energy, and the force experienced by the wearer would depend on how well-padded the helmet was and how well-fitted it was to the wearer's head.

For the best case scenario, let's assume that the stone is thrown at a relatively flat angle and strikes the helmet near its top surface, which is one of the strongest parts of the helmet. In this case, the force of the impact would be spread out over a relatively large area and the helmet would be able to absorb much of the energy. As a result, the force experienced by the wearer would likely be relatively low, and the helmet may only dent or deform slightly. In this scenario, the force imparted on the helmet might be around 100-200 Newtons (22-45 pounds of force).

For the worst case scenario, let's assume that the stone is thrown at a high velocity and strikes the helmet at a sharp angle, such as near its edge or at its weakest point. In this case, the force of the impact would be concentrated over a smaller area, and the helmet may not be able to absorb as much of the energy. The force experienced by the wearer would be much higher, and the helmet may crack or even split open. In this scenario, the force imparted on the helmet might be several thousand Newtons (hundreds of pounds of force).

Nice explanation. But also: Could the Rock even withstand itself such kind of force? I mean by that: Rocks are simply 'weaker' than iron or steel. So if the Rock hits the helmet, wouldnt be the energy from the rock, hitting the helmet, used against itself and this would get the rock itself to 'break'?

Also - the same thing you say here works with arrows. Arrows could penetrate armor but in medieval times regularly havent done it. Simply because you never got a perfect angle to it or other circumstances. Also Arrows had a much higher Joule-rating then a thrown rock.

But one of my main arguments why this wont work out - was also that the rock would split itself when hitting the metal. So it cant use the force it maybe has, because it breaks earlier.

Lead bullets mushroom on impact, yet they can still kill you. Physics is fun.

[Brother Santodes]

the creator of this "thread" state slings where pointless and not used because they couldn't do damage against armour so it clearly matter. or sadly...

and the scrips about slings penetrating armour and the removal of sling projectiles out of human body's are you know just that...

[Khergit Horse Archer]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Duncan:

Diposting pertama kali oleh 🅶 I|I Kael π:

Nice explanation. But also: Could the Rock even withstand itself such kind of force? I mean by that: Rocks are simply 'weaker' than iron or steel. So if the Rock hits the helmet, wouldnt be the energy from the rock, hitting the helmet, used against itself and this would get the rock itself to 'break'?

Also - the same thing you say here works with arrows. Arrows could penetrate armor but in medieval times regularly havent done it. Simply because you never got a perfect angle to it or other circumstances. Also Arrows had a much higher Joule-rating then a thrown rock.

But one of my main arguments why this wont work out - was also that the rock would split itself when hitting the metal. So it cant use the force it maybe has, because it breaks earlier.

It doesn't work like this. Just because rock is "weaker" than steel does not mean it can't be used to damage it. You can effectively trash a car with a wooden baseball bat.

cars are kinda made of malleable metal to absorb the impact of a crash and deforming the metal esp in the front and rear of the car.

[Duncan]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Khergit Horse Archer:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Duncan:

It doesn't work like this. Just because rock is "weaker" than steel does not mean it can't be used to damage it. You can effectively trash a car with a wooden baseball bat.

cars are kinda made of malleable metal to absorb the impact of a crash and deforming the metal esp in the front and rear of the car.

It's not that cars are made to be deformed in case of an accident, it's the thin metal sheets that are very easy to damage and deform. Car's outer layer is around 0.8mm of steel, steel armored helmet is from 2mm to 2.5mm, much sturdier, but still a good swing from a halberd should leave good dents both on the helmet and on the wearer's skull.

[Wizard of Woz]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Duncan:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Khergit Horse Archer:

cars are kinda made of malleable metal to absorb the impact of a crash and deforming the metal esp in the front and rear of the car.

It's not that cars are made to be deformed in case of an accident, it's the thin metal sheets that are very easy to damage and deform. Car's outer layer is around 0.8mm of steel, steel armored helmet is from 2mm to 2.5mm, much sturdier, but still a good swing from a halberd should leave good dents both on the helmet and on the wearer's skull.

If that head was stuck in place, but since when you get hit in the head your head moves it dissipates much of the force. And just because the helmet dents doesn't necessarily mean your skull is impacted. Helmet were not skin tight.

[|Pipe Dreams]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Wizard of Woz:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Duncan:

It's not that cars are made to be deformed in case of an accident, it's the thin metal sheets that are very easy to damage and deform. Car's outer layer is around 0.8mm of steel, steel armored helmet is from 2mm to 2.5mm, much sturdier, but still a good swing from a halberd should leave good dents both on the helmet and on the wearer's skull.

If that head was stuck in place, but since when you get hit in the head your head moves it dissipates much of the force. And just because the helmet dents doesn't necessarily mean your skull is impacted. Helmet were not skin tight.

If you swing a halberd at someones head, their head hits the halberd with the same exact force.

The movement-vector just dissipates, not the force. To some extent.

[Wizard of Woz]

Diposting pertama kali oleh |Pipe Dreams:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Wizard of Woz:

If that head was stuck in place, but since when you get hit in the head your head moves it dissipates much of the force. And just because the helmet dents doesn't necessarily mean your skull is impacted. Helmet were not skin tight.

If you swing a halberd at someones head, their head hits the halberd with the same exact force.

The movement-vector just dissipates, not the force. To some extent.

Maybe force wasn't the right word. But my point stands, you take much less damage if your head can move vs being stuck in place.

[|Pipe Dreams]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Wizard of Woz:

Diposting pertama kali oleh |Pipe Dreams:

If you swing a halberd at someones head, their head hits the halberd with the same exact force.

The movement-vector just dissipates, not the force. To some extent.

Maybe force wasn't the right word. But my point stands, you take much less damage if your head can move vs being stuck in place.

100%. We don't need to verify that lol. I've smacked my head on concrete before.

[Core]

1. You will be applied force on your body from a stone even if you wear full plate because of f=m*a and p=f/a; that is beside the fact that there is no plate armor in the era of this game
2. Damage might be mitigated to a certain extent depending on the contact surface of the armor with your body but that doesn't mean invulnerability; obviously a helmet, bent armor spot, or an opening will be some of the quite vulnerable parts
3. Game has a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ balance, it has to because it heavily lacks content and tries to make up with grind to keep the player engaged. That grind, in turn, causes a frustration in damage mechanics. 2H Polearm, albeit valid, is such an example.
4. It's a game, they have to do something - but mods allow a better control over unit distribution across tiers if you are bothered by the fact that they are "only" looters and RBM places a good full stop to all of these arguments
To sum up, this topic is about lacking content to keep the player engaged other than the grind, which is not easy to fix rather than increasing or decreasing some few variables.

[Clovis Sangrail]

But what about coup contrecoup injuries?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coup_contrecoup_injury

Discuss, but please limit your responses to 1000 words.