the alley mechanic. good / bad / ugly discussion

[Innuendos]

the alley mechanic is something that needed to be added, and finally was. but that doesnt mean it was perfect. i will discuss the good, the bad, and the ugly, and await other's thoughts.

the good:
that it is actually in the game. lol... but seriously, it gives passive roguery xp to you and the companion running it correctly... which is good, as well as the ammount, i feel is pretty on point. if you run alley's, you will get max roguery, and get it rather quickly, especially if you have multiple and are running back and forth fighting off the would be owners.

i feel the alley fights, are good, and the time to travel to get there is just about perfect in terms of its length. if you get a RNG matchup where there are a ton of thugs trying to take over, instead of like 3 or 4, the fights get interesting and you can lose them. which is needed, these fights cannot be 'too easy' and there needs to be a feeling you CAN lose the fight. if you only put in peasents or recruits, you can lose it, just as it should be.

i also like the fact that your companion 'puts on his real armor/weapons' for the fight, instead of the civilian outfit/weapons, as it matches the troops you leave in having real gear. also, the situation calls for it. your gang alley leader finds out about an attack, they would get ready for said fight, and be ready, for said fight. shields are OP for this situation, and any troop that has it greatly increases their survival, as the only troops you fight are thugs. who are shieldless in all of their spawn iterrations.

i also feel, that while the percentage needs a tweak,(which i will touch on in the bad), that it is good, that the prosperity of the town, is the determining factor of how much money you receive. if you are a gang holding over an alley in a town that doesnt make money, you should not be able to make a lot of money. that is fair.

the fact that your gang leader, acts sort of as a governor, and can gain relations threw charm, is good. if you put a charasmatic leader inplace, they should be treated as such. various things like this, should work, and from my testing, at minimum, charm does. i would like to see MORE of this. (this could not be charm and just inbedded in the feature. either way, it is good)

the bad:

criminal rating, unless you take over multiple towns of the same faction, very fast, is pretty much ignorable. i feel the threshold of being declared war on needs to be at least 70... maybe 75(it is currently 60 i believe), especially if you only get to have one alley per town(will be touched on in ugly). but in general, there is no real 'down side' to owning an alley... and if anything, can be exploited with the perk that gives you like -50% trade penalty for having any criminal rating at all. i feel that downside, needs to be increased. there has to be something to deter you from breaking the law.... and instant war declariation isnt the solution... perhaps the clan holding the town's relations constantly go down, as you a constant menace to their town? im not sure what the perfect way to punish the player is, i just know there has to actually BE a punishment that isnt, welp, now i am at war with a whole faction, and i lose my alley. petty crime needs at least, a petty punishment and right now, there is none.

in terms of being able to make money, alley's just arent it. even if you have 9 alley's, you are barely breaking 1800-2k unless you are owning the alleys of the 9 top prosperous towns, where you might break out to 2.5-3k ish. that isnt enough to sustain the 3 party's(that you will obviously need when you are declared war on, and can gather you troops to add into alley for you if you take them from the leader), and main party, that you can field when u are able to have 9 alley's. (or 10 with the perk to give extra companion, or 5 parties, if you chose the party perk over it) whatever the percent is, needs to be moved a tiny bit higher, to make it so you can actually field something... and more put into line with workshops. as it is now, you cannot make enough money to field parties, replentish the troops of alleys, and be able to really DO anything since you dont have money unless you are battle'n constantly yourself and selling. the whole point of running alleys, is that you as the player dont have to do that. or workshops, or caravans.... while you most certainly can, and it will help your money situation... the intent is to be a criminal, and running legit business, isnt inline with that thoughtprocesses. this might cross over with the petty punishments, as if you run an alley, you cannot own a workshop in that town, or start caravans, as you are a KNOWN CRIMINAL. (perhaps chaning a perk or two to increase profits from alleys would help this?)

another bad i feel, is the fact that you can put 10 tier 6 troops, and someone to watch over it, and not have it auto resolve on its own. you as the player, should not have to run to do every single battle. those battles, if you dont go, should auto resolve. if you lose it, oh well, if you keep it, you should be able to then return and add more troops to keep the alley strong. when you have 9 alleys in 9 cities, it is literally a game of ping pong where you cannot do anything other than go from fight to fight. the auto resolve allows the player to finish whatever they were doing, accept the concequence, and act accordingly after the fact.

the ugly:

the biggest ugly, is that in its current implementation, the gameplay loop is state(the alley, not the whole games loop). there needs to be MORE. more you can do. more punishments. more options. more things to do. just.. more everything. it is an obviously unfleshed out feature... (in a game that already has 100 of those) the current ping pong running around is not fun, and by the time you are clan tier 2, if you are still doing it, you most likely want to stop. this just isnt a successful model as a clan, and needs to be made so that it can be.

another ugly, is the fact that no matter what troops you put in, every other day or two, that troop will be converted into a tier 1-3 thug, based on the tier you put in. the troops you put in the alley need to stay there longer, much longer. regardless of what you put in, it needs to be what you put in, for at least 2-3x longer than what is currently implemented. if i put 10 khan's guards, into an alley... you cant transform magically those khan guards into master thugs within a few days, and all of them within a week or two. being a criminal is a lifestyle, and they dont just turn and run tail. not only does this cost the player money, but it heavily effects weither you will win a fight or not when it comes down to it. this essentially, reinforces and causes the ping pong gameplay where you are bouncing constantly around to each alley, replentishing these thugs, with the troops you already had in there. that is insanely costly, and time consuming, and eats into the already low profit you are making.

wont touch on this alot but... you need to be able to take over more than one alley in a town. you should be able to completely own a town, and take the criminal rating hit, and relations hit if you want to. this is just objectively what needs to be done. for realism, and for roleplay.

i think the last ugly ill touch on is the misses oppertunity. people wanted, asked, and were told they were getting this feature for years. you had, literal, years to make this debut sparkle. and it just, isnt. there needs to be so much MORE added.... to keep this an actual gameplay feature that keeps players engaging into it... and it is disappointing.

now, i could add more but i have typed enough.

what are you guys good bad or ugly? what do you wish you see? what are you all's thoughts?

[Supply Side Jesus]

Good and insightful review.

One point that I disagree with is that you get to use combat gear. I would rather have two sets of gear - 'combat' and 'street'. I would rather see more thought put into what is allowed as 'street' gear (all leather, throwing and low tier gear is now suddenly useful). Additionally, I think thug specialization tree must be much deeper. You can have ranged troops with throwing, you should have shock troops with two handed hammers and NO SHIELDS for anyone.

Last but not least, ONLY fief owner and his companions should be allowed to use combat gear and maybe even combat troops (from garrison) in such encounters. Otherwise city guard would get involved.

As to more types of missions, I fully agree. Imagine if you could kidnap lords, extort caravans visiting the city, have access to black market to sell stolen goods, maybe even have your own hideout base that you periodically have to defend from attacking lords. This could also play into sieges, where if you control the alley you could open gates at night for attackers or sneak out and attack siege camp and destroy food and siege weapons.

Last but not least, maybe merc clan (hidden flame?) that doesn't have combat gear could be repurposed to work as mercenaries in this type of combat? Think assassin's guild or similar.

[Ruffio]

TW added what they said they would, nothing more, nothing less. I'm indifferent to it. Tbh it's a waste of companion slot. But by all means, those that want to RP a criminal enterprise, what not.. go for it.

It's just low effort passive income..

[Innuendos]

Originally posted by Supply Side Jesus:

Good and insightful review.

One point that I disagree with is that you get to use combat gear. I would rather have two sets of gear - 'combat' and 'street'. I would rather see more thoughts put into what is allowed as 'street' gear (all leather, throwing and low tier gear now suddenly useful). Additionally, if you have troops specialized in this (assassins, etc.) you have a crime boss playstyle.

Imaging if you could kidnap lords, ambush caravans at night, have your own hideout base.

at first. i felt this way, as when i first realised the companion i spent 70-100k on civilian gear, wasnt using it, pissed me off. but later, realised that they KNOW about the fight coming. they would gear up.

i udnerstand that no everyone will feel this way, and that is ok. but i at least understand WHY it would happen.

in terms of allowed civilian gear, i feel there is a decent ammount of it, but would love for it to be expanded...

in terms of other troops, i would love to see more 'thug' troops. assasins, information gatherer's, just more varied options would be nice. i agree. (or dare i say, you being able to recruit these thug/street troops from your alley)

[Innuendos]

Originally posted by Ruffio:

TW added what they said they would, nothing more, nothing less. I'm indifferent to it. Tbh it's a waste of companion slot. But by all means, those that want to RP a criminal enterprise, what not.. go for it.

It's just low effort passive income..

i will agree, while not totally, a waste of a companion slot, it most certainly is skirting that line. i dont feel it is a waste, as even if it only making you a tiny bit of denars... the companion isnt costing you denars. and that in itself, isnt a 'waste'.. but it is definately, at that line when you compare it to it running a caravan or party that is

[Supply Side Jesus]

Originally posted by Innuendos:

Originally posted by Supply Side Jesus:

One point that I disagree with is that you get to use combat gear.

but later, realised that they KNOW about the fight coming. they would gear up.

i udnerstand that no everyone will feel this way, and that is ok. but i at least understand WHY it would happen.

I think they can't use full gear because what happens if city guard comes to investigate? They wouldn't be able to blend into population, because they have full armor on and the only people around looking like that. So they would get arrested or have to fight the guards trying to keep the order.

The only time this would not be an issue if they are WITH city guard, that is, they are part of city owner's team.

[Innuendos]

Originally posted by Supply Side Jesus:

Originally posted by Innuendos:

but later, realised that they KNOW about the fight coming. they would gear up.

i udnerstand that no everyone will feel this way, and that is ok. but i at least understand WHY it would happen.

I think they can't use full gear because what happens if city guard comes to investigate? They wouldn't be able to blend into population, because they have full armor on and the only people around looking like that. So they would get arrested or have to fight the guards trying to keep the order.

The only time this would not be an issue if they are WITH city guard, that is, they are part of city owner's team.

i would be ok with it either way. to be honest. but i understand your point, and it is valid and makes sense.

the only thing i would say is, just like in real life, the police/the guards, cant be everywhere always. people will find ways to 'gear up' and have weapons and have fights around the guards/police finding out until it is too late. ( or be paid off to not care/be there)

if that makes sense.

[Supply Side Jesus]

Ownership of the alley should give you more than just passive income - how about access to black market where 'stolen' goods can be purchased at a steep discount? This could be used to combine this with a merchant play style.

Here is one way it could work - alley has 'access' to any goods produced by workshops and villages in the city but at 30% discount. The only catch is that you can't sell it back in the same city. When you buy from black market (unless you own the city) there is a small chance you get an encounter with guards and have to bribe them or fight off and take criminal rating hit.

[Innuendos]

Originally posted by Supply Side Jesus:

Ownership of the alley should give you more than just passive income - how about access to black market where 'stolen' goods can be purchased at a steep discount? This could be used to combine this with a merchant play style.

this falls under my 'it needs more things, more punishments, and more perks(that i forgot to say)

and i agree, it could be a possibile addition.

[Longman]

Originally posted by Supply Side Jesus:

Good and insightful review.
Last but not least, ONLY fief owner should be allowed to use combat gear and combat troops (from garrison) in such encounters.

As to more types of missions, I fully agree. Imaging if you could kidnap lords, ambush caravans at night, access to black market to sell stolen goods, maybe even have your own hideout base that you periodically have to defend from lords.

Last but not least, maybe merc clan (hidden flame?) that doesn't have combat gear could be repurposed to work as mercenaries in this type of combat? This assassin's guild or similar.

Agreed, if you set up an alley in your own fief you should be able to use combat gear, makes no sense otherwise, criminals ought to stay low and not burst into a city in full shining gear otherwise city guards should react.

I also agree with OP points that right now alleys are a touch useless and need to make more money, I'd say at least 8% of towns prosperity instead of current 2% or keep it at base 2% and allow companion roguery skill to add extra % to that. Makes no sense to use a companion on an alley instead of a caravan... unless they obviously expand the entire mechanic and add smuggling etc.

TaleWorlds has so much potential here, fingers crossed.

[Innuendos]

Originally posted by Longman:

Originally posted by Supply Side Jesus:

Good and insightful review.
Last but not least, ONLY fief owner should be allowed to use combat gear and combat troops (from garrison) in such encounters.

As to more types of missions, I fully agree. Imaging if you could kidnap lords, ambush caravans at night, access to black market to sell stolen goods, maybe even have your own hideout base that you periodically have to defend from lords.

Last but not least, maybe merc clan (hidden flame?) that doesn't have combat gear could be repurposed to work as mercenaries in this type of combat? This assassin's guild or similar.

Agreed, if you set up an alley in your own fief you should be able to use combat gear, makes no sense otherwise, criminals ought to stay low and not burst into a city in full shining gear otherwise city guards should react.

I also agree with OP points that right now alleys are a touch useless and need to make more money, I'd say at least 8% of towns prosperity instead of current 2% or keep it at base 2% and allow companion roguery skill to add extra % to that. Makes no sense to use a companion on an alley instead of a caravan... unless they obviously expand the entire mechanic and add smuggling etc.

TaleWorlds has so much potential here, fingers crossed.

8-10 might be a tad high. maybe 3 or 4. at max 5. you have to remember that towns can reach 10k+ prosperity if left alone for enough time. 1k+ per alley is a tad much and would replace caravans/workshops etc. thats why i said it needs to be in line with workshops... as the alley basically functions as a workshop with the added feature of fighting to control it.

and i agree that the fingers are crossed that more is added to this mechanic. the potential is there, the skeleton is there, it needs a heart, skin, etc

[Supply Side Jesus]

Originally posted by Longman:

keep it at base 2% and allow companion roguery skill to add extra % to that.

This makes most sense to me.

[Innuendos]

Originally posted by Supply Side Jesus:

Originally posted by Longman:

keep it at base 2% and allow companion roguery skill to add extra % to that.

This makes most sense to me.

i would absolutely be ok with this. (or it being a perk)

[Ruffio]

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[Longman]

Originally posted by Innuendos:

Originally posted by Longman:

Agreed, if you set up an alley in your own fief you should be able to use combat gear, makes no sense otherwise, criminals ought to stay low and not burst into a city in full shining gear otherwise city guards should react.

I also agree with OP points that right now alleys are a touch useless and need to make more money, I'd say at least 8% of towns prosperity instead of current 2% or keep it at base 2% and allow companion roguery skill to add extra % to that. Makes no sense to use a companion on an alley instead of a caravan... unless they obviously expand the entire mechanic and add smuggling etc.

TaleWorlds has so much potential here, fingers crossed.

8-10 might be a tad high. maybe 3 or 4. at max 5. you have to remember that towns can reach 10k+ prosperity if left alone for enough time. 1k+ per alley is a tad much and would replace caravans/workshops etc. thats why i said it needs to be in line with workshops... as the alley basically functions as a workshop with the added feature of fighting to control it.

and i agree that the fingers are crossed that more is added to this mechanic. the potential is there, the skeleton is there, it needs a heart, skin, etc

Fair point with prosperity hitting 10k+ it will be a bit much, though I'm yet to see a settlement hit 8k.

I digress, I see your point that it should make as much as workshops, but we're sacrificing a companion to have an alley and then we have to protect it too so lots of resources are spent and little's gained. Perhaps they should balance to make it something between caravans and workshops? Mind you, all workshops are stated to be at "level 1" which suggests they could be upgradable, one beautiful day and then alleys will need a rework as they'd be even less competetive.

[Innuendos]

well, from what ive noticed longman, the alley's differ alot like workshops in terms of the denars gained per day. for example, the 5k prospertiy maranath alley i had, was routinely giving 80-160 per day. much like how a workshop would go up and down pending wars, seiges, food/supply shortages, etc. and since the alley's profit is tied ot the towns prospertiy, that makes sense.

that is the main reason i feel it should be 'inline' with the workshops as it already fluxuates as they do. caravans have a massive range from being completely in the negative, to giving you 2k+ per caravan a day. i cannot sign off an opinion that an alley should ever make as much as a caravan can, in terms of the high end of the flux.

but as a blanket statement, inbetween a workshop and caravan would be something i can be down with. as long as an alley can NEVER reach the high end of a caravan's profit.

(and remember that workshops probably make lower than an alley with a high prosperity town if one does not have the perks that push workshop production higher, and if the workshop is in a ... not high prospertity town)

(as an IE: if you have a tannery in a 1.5k prospertity town, it probably doesnt take in more than 100 or so denars, maybe up to 150. without the workshop perks. where as in, the alley in my 5k maranath prospertity, would take in a tad bit more on the higher end of that kind of scale)

so.. i guess... ya. that works. as there is alot more risk involved in the alley.

numbers man... i hate numbers. sigh lol