Why are enemy factions still able to run around with +800 armies when I captured half their lords?

[Witch ~]

This has been super frustrating. They just pop everywhere and my king is being the dumbest lord ever.

[The Mau Corporation]

Basic answer: to maintain the health of the simulation and general game balance.

A) Those armies are generally peasant armies.
B) The player can build a character to hold prisoners almost indefinately.
C) Many kings were, are and will be dumb cause; such is life. All we can do is try our best not to be like them.

[KJ]

Originally posted by Witch ~:

This has been super frustrating. They just pop everywhere and my king is being the dumbest lord ever.

They recruit mercenaries (sometimes 2-3 mercenary clans), so thats 8-12 parties alone. And when you only capture half the enemy lords, and the other half still are undefeated, it just means the faction was 1600 strong ?
AI and mechanics in lategame is just dumb and broken. The only options are a) pray for the devs to do something about it or b) look for and/or pray someone makes mods to fix this

[The Mau Corporation]

Alternatively; figure a way through. A player can choose to max tactics and plough thru army after army and take the map. Or empower AI clans to do the work for you.

The tools are there. Yes, the game has flaws; its too complex not to. But I think if one is prepared to analyse objectively a lot of frustration comes from a player knowing they took shortcuts when building their imperial house of cards and have to build it better next time.

Or not. A player can just mod away their issues and still find fun. No judgement. I prefer to emphasise the game has a very large toolbox and its much too easy to use a hammer everytime.

[RJboxer]

Originally posted by Witch ~:

This has been super frustrating. They just pop everywhere and my king is being the dumbest lord ever.

I assume you are on 1.1.0 and none of the commenters noticed. They are answering like we all did YEARS ago.. in the dozens of threads "why wont this faction die out? Why do I have to pay them tribute? Why do they have troops? Is it a benefit or hinderance to me they have troops? etc"

For me, I think OP is stating how in 1.1.0 (they changed a LOTTTTTTTTTTTTT. and most is not in the patch notes.) the game is quite weird later on. This is a good thing since the biggest legit complaint I see (and have since month one of EA) is that end game is a slog and boring.

Well, currently 1.1.0 Towns rebel, but far far far far less than they did before. Currently we have 3 factions total in my world (not counting me as solo). Vlandia 40%, Southern empire 40%, and Aserai 20% of fiefs owned.
This NEVER happened before.
Next.. it is MONTHS before one town flips for ANY of them.. sometimes a year. Then again sometimes 4 in a year. Regardless Vlandia should not be 3x its size. WITH NO NEW CLANS... and be able to hold 40% of the world without the Policies for loyalty (which they DO NOT have).

Yet, all three factions hold their foreign towns much much longer than before.

Which leads us to the NEXT issue.. related to OP.
Northern, khuzait, Sturgia, Battania, Western are all still alive in my world. They all still have ALL (every single one) of their original clans. (Weird, NONE died out? None defected? that is unusual). And campaign is year 28-30 I forget exactly.
Now, when u look at ANY OF THOSE factions, they still have 8-9 clans. And still pump out 800-1200 man armys.

In the past, yeah factions with no fiefs can make armys, and exploit the tribute mechanic. But they eventually DIED out.
Other clans left.. and this was NEEDED since the AI needed foreign clans to even HOPE to hold onto their new towns.

Seems in 1.1.0 The "flipping' based on loyalty is not like it was before. And thus, there was a tweak to "ai recruits lords from Fief-less factions"

This makes it so I don't "sometimes, maybe once a campaign" see a Fief less faction pump out an 800 man army (mostly of mercs by the way).
No.. you CONSTANTLY see 800-1000 man armys walking around. From "dead factions"

That's new, and not particularly good or bad. But is a confusing design decision IMO

[The Mau Corporation]

Originally posted by RJboxer:

Originally posted by Witch ~:

This has been super frustrating. They just pop everywhere and my king is being the dumbest lord ever.

I assume you are on 1.1.0 and none of the commenters noticed. They are answering like we all did YEARS ago.. in the dozens of threads "why wont this faction die out? Why do I have to pay them tribute? Why do they have troops? Is it a benefit or hinderance to me they have troops? etc"

For me, I think OP is stating how in 1.1.0 (they changed a LOTTTTTTTTTTTTT. and most is not in the patch notes.) the game is quite weird later on. This is a good thing since the biggest legit complaint I see (and have since month one of EA) is that end game is a slog and boring.

Well, currently 1.1.0 Towns rebel, but far far far far less than they did before. Currently we have 3 factions total in my world (not counting me as solo). Vlandia 40%, Southern empire 40%, and Aserai 20% of fiefs owned.
This NEVER happened before.
Next.. it is MONTHS before one town flips for ANY of them.. sometimes a year. Then again sometimes 4 in a year. Regardless Vlandia should not be 3x its size. WITH NO NEW CLANS... and be able to hold 40% of the world without the Policies for loyalty (which they DO NOT have).

Yet, all three factions hold their foreign towns much much longer than before.

Which leads us to the NEXT issue.. related to OP.
Northern, khuzait, Sturgia, Battania, Western are all still alive in my world. They all still have ALL (every single one) of their original clans. (Weird, NONE died out? None defected? that is unusual). And campaign is year 28-30 I forget exactly.
Now, when u look at ANY OF THOSE factions, they still have 8-9 clans. And still pump out 800-1200 man armys.

In the past, yeah factions with no fiefs can make armys, and exploit the tribute mechanic. But they eventually DIED out.
Other clans left.. and this was NEEDED since the AI needed foreign clans to even HOPE to hold onto their new towns.

Seems in 1.1.0 The "flipping' based on loyalty is not like it was before. And thus, there was a tweak to "ai recruits lords from Fief-less factions"

This makes it so I don't "sometimes, maybe once a campaign" see a Fief less faction pump out an 800 man army (mostly of mercs by the way).
No.. you CONSTANTLY see 800-1000 man armys walking around. From "dead factions"

That's new, and not particularly good or bad. But is a confusing design decision IMO

I see!

Yeah, that doesn't sound like its WAI at all. I'd love to hear more about the changes you're noticing (maybe a diff thread?) in longer game for 1.1.0. I'm much more intrigued in testing it out if there more going on under the hood than the patch notes suggest.

[RJboxer]

Originally posted by The Mau Corporation:

Originally posted by RJboxer:

I assume you are on 1.1.0 and none of the commenters noticed. They are answering like we all did YEARS ago.. in the dozens of threads "why wont this faction die out? Why do I have to pay them tribute? Why do they have troops? Is it a benefit or hinderance to me they have troops? etc"

For me, I think OP is stating how in 1.1.0 (they changed a LOTTTTTTTTTTTTT. and most is not in the patch notes.) the game is quite weird later on. This is a good thing since the biggest legit complaint I see (and have since month one of EA) is that end game is a slog and boring.

Well, currently 1.1.0 Towns rebel, but far far far far less than they did before. Currently we have 3 factions total in my world (not counting me as solo). Vlandia 40%, Southern empire 40%, and Aserai 20% of fiefs owned.
This NEVER happened before.
Next.. it is MONTHS before one town flips for ANY of them.. sometimes a year. Then again sometimes 4 in a year. Regardless Vlandia should not be 3x its size. WITH NO NEW CLANS... and be able to hold 40% of the world without the Policies for loyalty (which they DO NOT have).

Yet, all three factions hold their foreign towns much much longer than before.

Which leads us to the NEXT issue.. related to OP.
Northern, khuzait, Sturgia, Battania, Western are all still alive in my world. They all still have ALL (every single one) of their original clans. (Weird, NONE died out? None defected? that is unusual). And campaign is year 28-30 I forget exactly.
Now, when u look at ANY OF THOSE factions, they still have 8-9 clans. And still pump out 800-1200 man armys.

In the past, yeah factions with no fiefs can make armys, and exploit the tribute mechanic. But they eventually DIED out.
Other clans left.. and this was NEEDED since the AI needed foreign clans to even HOPE to hold onto their new towns.

Seems in 1.1.0 The "flipping' based on loyalty is not like it was before. And thus, there was a tweak to "ai recruits lords from Fief-less factions"

This makes it so I don't "sometimes, maybe once a campaign" see a Fief less faction pump out an 800 man army (mostly of mercs by the way).
No.. you CONSTANTLY see 800-1000 man armys walking around. From "dead factions"

That's new, and not particularly good or bad. But is a confusing design decision IMO

I see!

Yeah, that doesn't sound like its WAI at all. I'd love to hear more about the changes you're noticing (maybe a diff thread?) in longer game for 1.1.0. I'm much more intrigued in testing it out if there more going on under the hood than the patch notes suggest.

There are many my friend. So many I can't even remember them all (I just remember them as I read a new thread.. OH YEAH. THAT NEEDS TO BE CONFIRMED etc.. lol)

But tbh, I cant wait until you and other long time players play it, and confirm or deny if I'm going crazy noticing all these things.

I'd like confirmation "yeah.. wait a minute.. year 30.. AND NO CLANS defected from any faction? wth?"

Stuff like that. lol.

[Ruffio]

Originally posted by RJboxer:

Well, currently 1.1.0 Towns rebel, but far far far far less than they did before. Currently we have 3 factions total in my world (not counting me as solo). Vlandia 40%, Southern empire 40%, and Aserai 20% of fiefs owned.
This NEVER happened before.
Next.. it is MONTHS before one town flips for ANY of them.. sometimes a year. Then again sometimes 4 in a year. Regardless Vlandia should not be 3x its size. WITH NO NEW CLANS... and be able to hold 40% of the world without the Policies for loyalty (which they DO NOT have).

Just an idea, but if captured towns rebel less, maybe the AI became better at govern and adopt kingdom policies that help do it.

As for OP, if you just captured half their lords, then that means they got the other half left to raise parties and form armies. If a clan got 6 adult members, and form 3 parties, you capture those 3 parties. They can still field 3 more parties..

The quality will get less and less though and as all battles you don't take part in is based on the simulation and deciding skill there is tactics. They won't perform that well...

[Witch ~]

The ♥♥♥♥

[Seggellion]

Originally posted by RJboxer:

Originally posted by The Mau Corporation:

I see!

Yeah, that doesn't sound like its WAI at all. I'd love to hear more about the changes you're noticing (maybe a diff thread?) in longer game for 1.1.0. I'm much more intrigued in testing it out if there more going on under the hood than the patch notes suggest.

There are many my friend. So many I can't even remember them all (I just remember them as I read a new thread.. OH YEAH. THAT NEEDS TO BE CONFIRMED etc.. lol)

But tbh, I cant wait until you and other long time players play it, and confirm or deny if I'm going crazy noticing all these things.

I'd like confirmation "yeah.. wait a minute.. year 30.. AND NO CLANS defected from any faction? wth?"

Stuff like that. lol.

I can confirm some of the observations you have made. I have played over 1500 hours into the game, without mods and I am currently playing the beta. I have been playing my current campaign into year 15. Just became leader for Western Empire. Battania, Southern Empire, Northern Empire and Khuzaits have been eliminated and have no fiefs. Yet, none of them have defected to any other nation. Indeed, the only ones that defected were a couple Battannian clans because I got tired of the constant rebellions in Battania and recruited them myself. Those towns have flipped ownership so often that they are constantly pillaged and have prosperity in only the hundreds. Concerning towns that are not in the perpetual Battanian warzone, the AI holds onto them much longer before they rebel. I believe if I just start recruiting some of these lost clans, then I will be able to steamroll the rest of the map.

It also appears that infantry is much stronger in the beta than ever before. The Khuzaits were eliminated quickly for me and that usually never happens. Either StratGaming or Flesson19 put out a youtube video on it, showing how an army of low-level recruits can hold their own and defeat an equal number of high-tier troops in auto-resolve battles. That would explain how in my campaign Strugia has essentially taken over all of Khuzait.

[Ruffio]

Originally posted by Seggellion:

Originally posted by RJboxer:

There are many my friend. So many I can't even remember them all (I just remember them as I read a new thread.. OH YEAH. THAT NEEDS TO BE CONFIRMED etc.. lol)

But tbh, I cant wait until you and other long time players play it, and confirm or deny if I'm going crazy noticing all these things.

I'd like confirmation "yeah.. wait a minute.. year 30.. AND NO CLANS defected from any faction? wth?"

Stuff like that. lol.

I can confirm some of the observations you have made. I have played over 1500 hours into the game, without mods and I am currently playing the beta. I have been playing my current campaign into year 15. Just became leader for Western Empire. Battania, Southern Empire, Northern Empire and Khuzaits have been eliminated and have no fiefs. Yet, none of them have defected to any other nation. Indeed, the only ones that defected were a couple Battannian clans because I got tired of the constant rebellions in Battania and recruited them myself. Those towns have flipped ownership so often that they are constantly pillaged and have prosperity in only the hundreds. Concerning towns that are not in the perpetual Battanian warzone, the AI holds onto them much longer before they rebel. I believe if I just start recruiting some of these lost clans, then I will be able to steamroll the rest of the map.

It also appears that infantry is much stronger in the beta than ever before. The Khuzaits were eliminated quickly for me and that usually never happens. Either StratGaming or Flesson19 put out a youtube video on it, showing how an army of low-level recruits can hold their own and defeat an equal number of high-tier troops in auto-resolve battles. That would explain how in my campaign Strugia has essentially taken over all of Khuzait.

This one perhaps...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FfD6RZLtZ0

[Seggellion]

Originally posted by Ruffio:

Originally posted by Seggellion:

I can confirm some of the observations you have made. I have played over 1500 hours into the game, without mods and I am currently playing the beta. I have been playing my current campaign into year 15. Just became leader for Western Empire. Battania, Southern Empire, Northern Empire and Khuzaits have been eliminated and have no fiefs. Yet, none of them have defected to any other nation. Indeed, the only ones that defected were a couple Battannian clans because I got tired of the constant rebellions in Battania and recruited them myself. Those towns have flipped ownership so often that they are constantly pillaged and have prosperity in only the hundreds. Concerning towns that are not in the perpetual Battanian warzone, the AI holds onto them much longer before they rebel. I believe if I just start recruiting some of these lost clans, then I will be able to steamroll the rest of the map.

It also appears that infantry is much stronger in the beta than ever before. The Khuzaits were eliminated quickly for me and that usually never happens. Either StratGaming or Flesson19 put out a youtube video on it, showing how an army of low-level recruits can hold their own and defeat an equal number of high-tier troops in auto-resolve battles. That would explain how in my campaign Strugia has essentially taken over all of Khuzait.

This one perhaps...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FfD6RZLtZ0

Yes. That's it. Thanks Ruffio.

[RJboxer]

That video is incorrect. And every "observation" he makes has been made dozens of times before. Many by me. And most of them over the last 3 years. nothing is new except "auto resolve exploits have been tweaked"

1- AI auto resolve has been out of whack since day 1. (he noticed and commented)
2- Recruits have ALWAYS been OP, as have LOOTERS for AR (he apparently DID NOT notice that for last 3 years)
3- The reason for that is because EARLY game is supposed to be tough. So Looters (after many many many tweaks.. and are STILL OP) and recruits are supposed to be FOUGHT, not atuo fought. I have theorized many times this is so a player doesnt start game. Get 2 cavalry, 2 infantry, 2 archers on day 1. Run around the map. AUTO resolve every battle. Zero looses against anything under 20 dudes.. And hit clan tier 1. Thus eliminating the "Training stage" TW wants clan tier 0 to be.
4- Noobs in forums LOVE to comment on the "nah bro. my 100 khans guard beat all armys under 500" etc. no, never have , never will. Even with exploits. Cheat mode they will. In fact, 1 khans guard can conquer all of calradia with cheat mode. But the whole "single type of troop beats all" has never been in the game. Even when Cav archers were SUPER OP.
5- His 300 cataphracts SHOULD get smoked by 100 tier 2 spearman, 100 tier 2 archers, and 100 Cavalry. In fact, it should Be MORE lopsided than his video shows. Rock/Paper/Scissors. Google it in game theory.
6- It is nice he finally noticed COMBINED arms beats single troops. always has. When it is near even.
7- The "power bar" isn't even a "power bar". no one really knows what it is. Morale? power of troops? number of troops? all of the above? just a general term of POWER? I dunno. But yes, Bigger color for you SHOULD be better, but anyone who has fought battles knows this is not always true. Especially since YOU the player should be far far far far more valuable in POWER than any troop in game. Did the Power bar calculator give your bar.. 20% for you being in that party? no. There are many "things" that go into the power bar.. and even in auto resolve with no Player. I'd assume multiple factors are looked at and a bigger bar isnt a 100% success (as my future examples will establish)

Anyway. yeah. single troop armys are trash when u fight real armys. (yep 100 cataphracts can win in the Skrimish mode against 100 fians. etc.. not a real battle). Yep 100 cats can win against 100 tier 3 swordsman. But the Devs tweaked recruits, and looters (and they have ALWAYS been that way) to counter early game sprawl too quickly.

Lastly, I commented on Auto resolve being way different the day 1.1 went to beta. I assume Many people did as well.
Old way.. You have 300 dudes defending your castle. Troop tier matters very very little. Enemy attacks with 1000. you'd lose. Auto resolve. you win, and only lose 30 dudes. (broken. They had the Fortification/Defense variable weighted way too high).
Since 1.1 Castle defense is much harder (but not impossible, SOME weird auto defenses still win against terrible odds. But again, there are no more 400 you, against 2200 them. and you win EASILY with auto resolve

Edit: oh and all my prior examples are NOT with tactics 300. Does anyone even use that build on legit? I doubt it.
Mine are tactics 0 to tactics 150ish...

Though It SHOULD be that on tactics 300.. you auto resolve and win more (like he is showing). and that SHOULD not (IMO) change the "looter/recruit" being OP, for game reasons.

[Ruffio]

Originally posted by Seggellion:

Originally posted by Ruffio:

This one perhaps...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FfD6RZLtZ0

Yes. That's it. Thanks Ruffio.

Feedback, comments and updates on patch notes can be found on TW's site though. A lot of the things people complain about on the steam forums TW already aware on, working on, or already fixed and waiting to push the fix.

https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/beta-patch-notes-v1-1-0.456661/

The steam forums a very bad place to keep yourself informed if you want to be on top of things.

[Urmel]

since full release, there are no clans that change factions (only rebell clans).

before full release, in ALL versions since one year,
the faction with manny fiefs recruited other clans from other factions.

for me, this destroyed the fun of playing a vassal for any faction.
there is zero progress in your faction when playing vassal since full release.

[Ruffio]

Originally posted by Urmel:

since full release, there are no clans that change factions (only rebell clans).

before full release, in ALL versions since one year,
the faction with manny fiefs recruited other clans from other factions.

for me, this destroyed the fun of playing a vassal for any faction.
there is zero progress in your faction when playing vassal since full release.

I still see clans from both Battania and Sturgia defecting to other kingdoms in my game after they lost most of their fiefs. Less than before yeah, , but does happen.