The new Fog of War feature for heroes is bad and uncalled for

[theodora21]

The new Fog of War feature hides everything about NPCs (their personality traits, skills, face etc.), besides their culture, until you meet them in person.

After 1500+ hours of playing the game it's the first time I'm actually mad about a feature and complaining about it. Forget about diplomacy, forget about dysfunctional AI, forget about everything.

Before, we used to be able to search in the game Encyclopedia for anything we might be interested in regarding a certain hero, except for their level, armor, focus points and attributes. It wasn't the the fastest method by any means, there weren't too many helpful filters (for example if you were looking for certain skills or personality traits), you'd have to manually go through everything unless you knew exactly who or what you were looking for, but at least we had that.

Now, after 3 years, the devs decided to make that process 1000 times harder and almost impossible later in the game (when there are SO MANY NPCs), for whatever reason that wasn't even explained. Nobody asked for it, it wasn't a feature that was present in Warband either, yet here we are.

For example, there are a lot of players who choose their spouse based on their looks and/or skills and/or personality traits, myself included. If they want to have a choice in who they marry (instead of marrying someone random), are they supposed to talk to all the female/male characters in the game to figure out who they want to pick?

If I want a scout I consider fits best (and by that I don't necessarily mean one with the highest Scouting skill) for that current playthrough - and keep in mind there are a lot of scouts in the game - am I supposed to talk to all the scouts to figure out who I want to pick?
Same goes for medics, engineers and quartermasters. I know tavern keepers can direct you to certain companions, but maybe I don't want the one they pointed me to, maybe I want another one, what then (for example maybe I don't want a horse thief as my scout on an honorable character)? Do I keep talking to tavern keepers for hours instead of actually playing the game? Do I settle for a companion I don't want?

If I want to recruit a clan whose leader is honorable, or above/below a certain age, or with certain skills, am I supposed to talk to all or most of the clan leaders until I find one? And let's say I find one, but I might also be interested in his successors' traits, skills, age, whatever? Am I supposed to find all of the clan members and talk to them?

It's just stupid. I have many more examples of how this feature affects gameplay on different kinds of levels (especially roleplaying) and I can't stress enough how unnecessary and uncalled for it was.

In the early game this might not be such a big issue, but later in the game when everything is so fast paced and there are A LOT of NPCs it's just impossible to recruit a clan or companion that you prefer, or to marry your kids to someone you actually want etc.

You might say that as the game progresses you interact with a lot of NPCs, but that's not always the case. In a trader playthrough (especially if you want to get Trade 300) you don't interact with a lot of NPCs for a long time or maybe not at all depending on how you play.

I wanted to start a new campaign after taking a break for a few weeks and I just couldn't play because of this change, that's how bad I think it is and how much I hate it, and for good reason I think. I know it's not realistic to know everything about everyone but it's a game, not real life. And if we can't know all the details about everyone for realism purposes, can't we at least know about nobles, since they would be more popular than wanderers?

I know some people aren't that interested in what companions or nobles they recruit (and that's perfectly fine), so this change doesn't really affect them as much, but many are and it's unfair to them to implement such a change after 3 years of having a totally different approach.

Sorry for sounding salty but I am.

Edit: For clarification, I want to add that I don't always marry the same person every campaign, I don't always get the same wives for my brothers or the same companions or recruit the same clans. I have honorable playthroughs, dishonorable playthroughs, trader playthroughs etc. throughout all the cultures. All these require pretty different "sets" of companions, wives and later nobles, with different skills and personality traits, if you care about roleplaying.
And that's just for the first generation of nobles as someone has mentioned in the comments. What about the second and third generations, am I supposed to know their skills, faces and personality traits aswell, as some people have said - "An experienced player should know these things"?
Plus they've been changing their skills and they've been adding new companions so even if you're an experienced player you can't always know all these things off the top of your head.

Also people seem to think that the recruiting phase is over in the early game, which is completely false. You'll always be recruiting nobles (OF DIFFERENT GENERATIONS), companions if yours die in battle and you'll always need wives/husbands for your children and nephews (I usually have around 10 children in my clan).

Not to mention how slow paced everything is in the early game compared to later, and the fact that there are a lot less NPCs in the beginning, which makes the problem less prevalent. But later in the game, when there are 10000 NPCs, and you're at war with all the factions, and they're asking for tens of thousands a day for peace, and you're moving at a speed of 4.5, and you have 400 units in your party alone, and you already have to be in 100 places at once doing 100 different things, you can't exactly postpone that to go looking for nobles to talk to in order to see who's best suited to join your kingdom, it's just not possible.
And it never stops, there will ALWAYS be more NPCs to talk to, and maybe I want to have a choice regarding whom I recruit, or maybe I want to know all the possible choices before making a decision, instead of recruiting the first noble I see just because I don't want to keep running around the map forever.

Edit 2: Bascially there are too many variables (and also take into account that there are hundreds of NPCs) I care about for roleplaying purposes when recruiting heroes (because I am way past the point of getting a few towns and considering the campaign finished), to have them hidden and locked behind talking to NPCs forever. I care a lot more about their age, skills, personality traits, their successors, their successors' age, traits, skills etc. and also about knowing all the possible choices before deciding who to recruit, than the "realism" this change offers.
And it's not just about roleplaying, a lot of people are interested in who has the best skills and so on.
Look up any let's play and see almost everyone using the Encyclopedia to search for companions and nobles, to see what options they have, to see if someone is married or not and so on and then come back and tell me that overall it's a good feature with good implementation.

[dichebach]

Personally I like it, but I could understand, for someone who was very much accustomed to the older system being upset.

A good policy for any game developer to follow with changes like this, is to implement "optionality." Meaning: you add a toggle in the options pane "NPC Fog of War: Total | Partial | None."

Making each toggle setting default to a particular difficulty could also make sense.

[RJboxer]

The new fog of war is TERRIBLE.

Yes.. nothing like having to scour the map to find a spouse.. or see who u want to hire.. Over and over.

There are so many things wrong with it (as u mentioned)... I am amazed anyone at TW thought this would be a good idea.

let's hope it is the first part of a LARGER mechanic coming in the future (maybe there will be a wanderer or job u can assign someone to... to be a DIPLOMAT and scout everyone.. etc)

Until something MORE comes... I'd say this fog of war, is dumb, not needed.. and serves no purpose at all. it literally makes a few different things completely random.. unless u want to spend hours and hours searching for dudes (which is even more fun.. since they can be captured, wounded or just plain glitched.. and NOT even where they should be according to encyclopedia)

[dichebach]

Originally posted by RJboxer:

The new fog of war is TERRIBLE.

Yes.. nothing like having to scour the map to find a spouse.. or see who u want to hire.. Over and over.

There are so many things wrong with it (as u mentioned)... I am amazed anyone at TW thought this would be a good idea.

let's hope it is the first part of a LARGER mechanic coming in the future (maybe there will be a wanderer or job u can assign someone to... to be a DIPLOMAT and scout everyone.. etc)

Until something MORE comes... I'd say this fog of war, is dumb, not needed.. and serves no purpose at all. it literally makes a few different things completely random.. unless u want to spend hours and hours searching for dudes (which is even more fun.. since they can be captured, wounded or just plain glitched.. and NOT even where they should be according to encyclopedia)

On the contrary, I think it is a "GOOD" idea. But again, as I said, it makes sense that others may disagree: thus "Option Toggle" is requireds.

[theodora21]

Originally posted by dichebach:

Personally I like it, but I could understand, for someone who was very much accustomed to the older system being upset.

A good policy for any game developer to follow with changes like this, is to implement "optionality." Meaning: you add a toggle in the options pane "NPC Fog of War: Total | Partial | None."

Making each toggle setting default to a particular difficulty could also make sense.

It's not the fact that I'm used to a certain feature (maybe just a little bit haha), but the fact that it's a bad mechanic to begin with and that it takes SO much away from roleplayers (and not only them, some people might look for a certain hero because they want the ones with the best skills for example). And after having played this game so much, roleplaying is pretty much all we have left at this point considering the state of the game.

Totally agree with being able to turn it on/off, I forgot to include that in the initial post.

[dichebach]

Originally posted by theodora21:

Originally posted by dichebach:

Personally I like it, but I could understand, for someone who was very much accustomed to the older system being upset.

A good policy for any game developer to follow with changes like this, is to implement "optionality." Meaning: you add a toggle in the options pane "NPC Fog of War: Total | Partial | None."

Making each toggle setting default to a particular difficulty could also make sense.

It's not the fact that I'm used to a certain feature (maybe just a little bit haha), but the fact that it's a bad mechanic to begin with and that it takes SO much away from roleplayers (and not only them, some people might look for a certain hero because they want the ones with the best skills for example). And after having played this game so much, roleplaying is pretty much all we have left at this point considering the state of the game.

Totally agree with being able to turn it on/off, I forgot to include that in the initial post.

Honestly . . . and I'm trying to be very diplomatic here cause I TOTALLY get when one of your long standing fav games takes a hit like this and I'm sympathetic . . . I think the previous system was far worse than the new one: it made zero sense in terms of medieval society (basically a databaes on every person of note in an entire continent) and it undermined any effort for the game loop to be oriented more toward immersive and role play oriented.

Option toggle IS THE SOLUTION, and it is a bit sad that TW did not anticipate that this change would not be well received by at least some of their community and implement the option toggle from the outset.

Such a feature is EXTREMELY easy to add to an app though, so as long as they can be made aware that there are a non-trivial segment of users who truly loathe the new NPC Fog of War, they can probably do it before it goes to stable branch.

[RJboxer]

It does not make "more sense". As I stated in the LAST thread regarding this,

Here is all the proof ANYONE should ever need...

I have never been to England. I know that King Charles is Male.

Done. Argument over.

it gets better.

King Charles is a tall dude, he has AT LEAST 2 kids. He WAS married to Princess Diana, and is now married to Queen Consort Camilla.

DONE, and DONE.

Again. I have never been to England. yet by some magic.. I know these things.

it gets better.

My cousin (female) married some dude a few months ago.. about 2000 miles away from where I live. I did not go. I've never met the dude. But I know he's a Medical professional, and Has a kid from a prior relationship.

Again. Never met him.. and never even been to the state she is in. Yet by MAGIC I know these things.

Now in "game" and that's key... "GAME".. In game, it is not fun for me to see "you have a marriage proposal for your brother from scrubella". I now have NO idea who Scrubella is. Nor her age, or anything. She might be 77 years old. And what if I accept?? yikes.

I agree I never went to Scrubellas Country, nor her prior wedding.. but should I have to?
Can't I know BASIC things about her, (exactly like IN REAL LIFE)? And even more so.. since not only is it realistic, but having to run across the map. hope SHE is there.. where shes supposed to be.. wasting WEEKS of my game campaign, just to HOPE she is desirable for marriage. That's not fun.. No one wants to play a game to RUN across the map for days.. just to Hope to find someone to check their stats.
But if it was only ONE time.. it wouldnt be that bad. it is DOZENS of times. in DOZENS of different scenarios...

Not fun, nor realistic.. And I have cheered on MANY mechanics that have changed from prior versions (smithing, looting, raiding etc..)

[theodora21]

Originally posted by dichebach:

Originally posted by theodora21:

It's not the fact that I'm used to a certain feature (maybe just a little bit haha), but the fact that it's a bad mechanic to begin with and that it takes SO much away from roleplayers (and not only them, some people might look for a certain hero because they want the ones with the best skills for example). And after having played this game so much, roleplaying is pretty much all we have left at this point considering the state of the game.

Totally agree with being able to turn it on/off, I forgot to include that in the initial post.

Honestly . . . and I'm trying to be very diplomatic here cause I TOTALLY get when one of your long standing fav games takes a hit like this and I'm sympathetic . . . I think the previous system was far worse than the new one: it made zero sense in terms of medieval society (basically a databaes on every person of note in an entire continent) and it undermined any effort for the game loop to be oriented more toward immersive and role play oriented.

Option toggle IS THE SOLUTION, and it is a bit sad that TW did not anticipate that this change would not be well received by at least some of their community and implement the option toggle from the outset.

Such a feature is EXTREMELY easy to add to an app though, so as long as they can be made aware that there are a non-trivial segment of users who truly loathe the new NPC Fog of War, they can probably do it before it goes to stable branch.

No problem, feel free to express yourself.
I agree with some of your points, we could go back and forth on this but all in all there are two sides to every story, so yeah it should be an optional feature.

[Urmel]

experienced player know the most important NPC`s
the game cant hide corain, arwa, svana, siga. you will know how to find them, if you want.

and all the other NPC you will discover sooner or later playing the game. its a additional feature to slow down the progress from new player at game start.

[theodora21]

Originally posted by RJboxer:

It does not make "more sense". As I stated in the LAST thread regarding this,

Here is all the proof ANYONE should ever need...

I have never been to England. I know that King Charles is Male.

Done. Argument over.

it gets better.

King Charles is a tall dude, he has AT LEAST 2 kids. He WAS married to Princess Diana, and is now married to Queen Consort Camilla.

DONE, and DONE.

Again. I have never been to England. yet by some magic.. I know these things.

it gets better.

My cousin (female) married some dude a few months ago.. about 2000 miles away from where I live. I did not go. I've never met the dude. But I know he's a Medical professional, and Has a kid from a prior relationship.

Again. Never met him.. and never even been to the state she is in. Yet by MAGIC I know these things.

Now in "game" and that's key... "GAME".. In game, it is not fun for me to see "you have a marriage proposal for your brother from scrubella". I now have NO idea who Scrubella is. Nor her age, or anything. She might be 77 years old. And what if I accept?? yikes.

I agree I never went to Scrubellas Country, nor her prior wedding.. but should I have to?
Can't I know BASIC things about her, (exactly like IN REAL LIFE)? And even more so.. since not only is it realistic, but having to run across the map. hope SHE is there.. where shes supposed to be.. wasting WEEKS of my game campaign, just to HOPE she is desirable for marriage. That's not fun.. No one wants to play a game to RUN across the map for days.. just to Hope to find someone to check their stats.
But if it was only ONE time.. it wouldnt be that bad. it is DOZENS of times. in DOZENS of different scenarios...

Not fun, nor realistic.. And I have cheered on MANY mechanics that have changed from prior versions (smithing, looting, raiding etc..)

Hahaha yeah but some might argue we don't live in medieval times. But thinking about it, I think that even in medieval times people knew a bit about nobles at least - that's why I mentioned that in the initial post - like their age, a little bit about their personality, stuff like that

[Seggellion]

The fog of war is a terrible feature. I agree there should be a toggle to turn it off. It also makes no sense under the clan tier system. The more renown a clan has means the clan members should be well known and recognizable to everyone just like it was pointed out above.

[theodora21]

Originally posted by Urmel:

experienced player know the most important NPC`s
the game cant hide corain, arwa, svana, siga. you will know how to find them, if you want.

and all the other NPC you will discover sooner or later playing the game. its a additional feature to slow down the progress from new player at game start.

I agree, I know most NPCs, but not all of them, especially when talking about the second and third generations, and I'm sure there are a lot of players who know even less than I do - that's why I didn't mention in the initial post that I know most NPCs. And I don't always play the same way, I don't marry Arwa on all my Aserai characters for example, I don't recruit the same companions on all my characters and the list goes on. Plus they keep changing their skills and stuff like that

[RJboxer]

Originally posted by Urmel:

experienced player know the most important NPC`s
the game cant hide corain, arwa, svana, siga. you will know how to find them, if you want.

and all the other NPC you will discover sooner or later playing the game. its a additional feature to slow down the progress from new player at game start.

Correct.. I know ALL THE BEST females and males. For first generation.

It's the second generation that is a pain.

but it is even worse than that. because "just because I KNOW arwa is great spouse material" doesn't mean I know she is single. So still, I gotta track her down. And that isn't "game fun". Nor realistic.

We aren't talking about "I should know the stats, and relationships of every vendor in calradia and how they relate to each and every lord.

We are talking about "the society in which we live, is ruled by 7 Kings/Queens. Each have 1 main lieutenant. Perhaps two if you are generous" It is HIGHLY likely I will know their names, and their offspring, and the OTHER major players in the world.

Think Putin, Musk, Bezos, Michael Jordan, Queen elizabeth etc...

and we have far far far far far far more than 7 rulers in this world..

Think of how many "famous" people You know of.. and know at least SOME stuff about.
Is Zelenski married? Is Putin? Is Biden? Is Queen Elizabeth?

etc..

Not what is their Net worth in their Chase Bank account. Basic stuff.

[theodora21]

Originally posted by RJboxer:

Originally posted by Urmel:

experienced player know the most important NPC`s
the game cant hide corain, arwa, svana, siga. you will know how to find them, if you want.

and all the other NPC you will discover sooner or later playing the game. its a additional feature to slow down the progress from new player at game start.

Correct.. I know ALL THE BEST females and males. For first generation.

It's the second generation that is a pain.

but it is even worse than that. because "just because I KNOW arwa is great spouse material" doesn't mean I know she is single. So still, I gotta track her down. And that isn't "game fun". Nor realistic.

We aren't talking about "I should know the stats, and relationships of every vendor in calradia and how they relate to each and every lord.

We are talking about "the society in which we live, is ruled by 7 Kings/Queens. Each have 1 main lieutenant. Perhaps two if you are generous" It is HIGHLY likely I will know their names, and their offspring, and the OTHER major players in the world.

Think Putin, Musk, Bezos, Michael Jordan, Queen elizabeth etc...

and we have far far far far far far more than 7 rulers in this world..

Think of how many "famous" people You know of.. and know at least SOME stuff about.
Is Zelenski married? Is Putin? Is Biden? Is Queen Elizabeth?

etc..

Not what is their Net worth in their Chase Bank account. Basic stuff.

Totally agree

[DemonicSquid]

The biggest gripe I have about it is that the portraits and marriage status are hidden. I don't actually have any issue that their stats etc are hidden, but you'd probably have at least some idea that Dethert is a bearded ugly moron and who he might be married to, that Ira is unmarried (as is her mother), and that Honoratus is a weasly little ♥♥♥♥ who needs castrating. Of course, photographs don't exist, but paintings do, and as the majority of these people are lords there'd be at least some images of them even if they weren't 100% accurate.

As for wanderers, well you've never met them before so unless they are some world-famous adventurer type how would you know anything about them at all? You wouldn't of course. So for wanderers the mechanic is ok as it is - with the exception being a wanderer who is famous, although obviously the game makes zero distinction about this right now (and probably never will).

[RJboxer]

Originally posted by DemonicSquid:

The biggest gripe I have about it is that the portraits and marriage status are hidden. I don't actually have any issue that their stats etc are hidden, but you'd probably have at least some idea that Dethert is a bearded ugly moron and who he might be married to, that Ira is unmarried (as is her mother), and that Honoratus is a weasly little ♥♥♥♥ who needs castrating. Of course, photographs don't exist, but paintings do, and as the majority of these people are lords there'd be at least some images of them even if they weren't 100% accurate.

As for wanderers, well you've never met them before so unless they are some world-famous adventurer type how would you know anything about them at all? You wouldn't of course. So for wanderers the mechanic is ok as it is - with the exception being a wanderer who is famous, although obviously the game makes zero distinction about this right now (and probably never will).

Wanderers would be far less famous (especially since NOT in clans. and have no RENOWN).. True

But don't forget, when you walk in any tavern you can ask for rumors and such.. and the barkeep tells u about jobs, and wanderers etc..

So Wanderers "wander" and their rep is eventually heard.

I agree, not near as prevalent as a Lord.. or lady. but still you'd have SOME idea of what they do..

Maybe "this dude has engineering skill". you then go look him up.. find out he has engineering AND rogue.. or ONLY engineer etc.. That would make sense IMO, for a wanderer.. but not the Royalty and Aristocracy of the game.. Especially since the word RENOWN is used in game, to Describe their clans.