Is the skein formation really worth it?

[Coxinga]

Is the skein formation worth it? It might be better for cavalry charges, but I feel that it can take a while for the formation to turn when your leading a charge. What you might be gaining in charges, you're losing in mobility.

[nephilimnexus]

Ultimately the point of the maneuver is to split an enemy block of troops in half, thus eliminating all cohesion in the enemy unit.

In practice for this game it doesn't work because the formation is only a shallow chevron at best, rather than a proper arrowhead shape. As with all things armor piercing, the sharpness of the wedge is a major factor in whether or not it works, and the skein formation is about a sharp as a scoop of ice cream.

If you play other games, such at the Total War series, you can see cavalry formations in their proper high-point, high energy shape that does indeed shatter enemy formations when their charges hit them.

So in summary... the formation is valid, but not for this game in particular.

[thunda]

Originally posted by nephilimnexus:

As with all things armor piercing, the sharpness of the wedge is a major factor in whether or not it works

Not really true. Armor is penetrated with velocity and density. Sharpness is relative to the projectile and the target. If the target is the size of a city, a bowling ball is hella sharp. If you understand what I mean.

Look at APFSDS rounds. The tungsten rod is cut totally flat, there's no tip to it (there is a ballistic cap on the end, which is irrelevant to penetration). Yet because its so thin and moving at high speed and is very dense material, it penetrates armor very well.

[Haddon]

Originally posted by nephilimnexus:

Ultimately the point of the maneuver is to split an enemy block of troops in half, thus eliminating all cohesion in the enemy unit.

In practice for this game it doesn't work because the formation is only a shallow chevron at best, rather than a proper arrowhead shape. As with all things armor piercing, the sharpness of the wedge is a major factor in whether or not it works, and the skein formation is about a sharp as a scoop of ice cream.

If you play other games, such at the Total War series, you can see cavalry formations in their proper high-point, high energy shape that does indeed shatter enemy formations when their charges hit them.

So in summary... the formation is valid, but not for this game in particular.

There are three different ways of making a wedge, and reasons to do so. You only explained the simplest of them, the one that shows up in TW because it is extremely simplistic.

The second is a wide skein, like in this, the purpose of which is to break enemy lines from the rear (or flank if the formation is deep enough). You don't need the sharp point for this, because the idea is to have high frontage to maximize impact while also disrupting formation. It is far more effective into the enemy rear than a sharper wedge formation. It is a skill that the French perfected (well, the Normans specifically) in Italy, because they had never faced Norman charges before. The Normans, when charging a front or an enemy that wasn't wavering, used a sharp wedge to break formation and shatter morale, or a wider skein to shatter troops that were wavering, or already running but not quite in full route yet.

The last is a REALLY sharp wedge, usually with a hollow center, used to drive through an enemy formation entirely, but that is completely unnecessary in this game.

So really, skein works as it is meant to, it just doesn't work as most people think any wedge formation should. It is meant to have high frontage so you slam into the rear of a whole chunk of the line, rather than breaking apart a formation because formation integrity isn't super impactful in this game yet.

[nephilimnexus]

You are absolutely correct. Please note, however, that I said it was a major factor, not the only factor. ;)

f = mv2

[Ryan]

Originally posted by Coxinga:

Is the skein formation worth it? It might be better for cavalry charges, but I feel that it can take a while for the formation to turn when your leading a charge. What you might be gaining in charges, you're losing in mobility.

Irony, given the skein was developed for greater mobility when charging (by having the leader at the front and visible to all).

[Asken]

Get RBM mod and use skein with horses, win-win.

[Ryan]

Originally posted by Asken:

Get RBM mod and use skein with horses, win-win.

>relies on several extra mods that have been abandoned

[jordop]

Skein used to be a waste of time, along with every other formation except line. That was a couple years ago though. I haven't seen any recent tests on it.

[Asken]

Originally posted by Ryn:

Originally posted by Asken:

Get RBM mod and use skein with horses, win-win.

>relies on several extra mods that have been abandoned

You mean me? i relie on mods that make the game fun for me if thats what you mean haha, also they mods are rather well alive and still reciving a few updates + prettyyyy alive on their discord :)

[GIJoe597]

Originally posted by Asken:

Originally posted by Ryn:

>relies on several extra mods that have been abandoned

You mean me? i relie on mods that make the game fun for me if thats what you mean haha, also they mods are rather well alive and still reciving a few updates + prettyyyy alive on their discord :)

I have no dog in this fight, but I believe he meant RBM, whatever that is, requires other old outdated mods.

[Ryan]

Originally posted by Asken:

Originally posted by Ryn:

>relies on several extra mods that have been abandoned

You mean me? i relie on mods that make the game fun for me if thats what you mean haha, also they mods are rather well alive and still reciving a few updates + prettyyyy alive on their discord :)

You can literally go on RBM and many other mods on Nexus and see 100+ comments complaining there are no updates. What mods are you using that you've not had any issues?

[Asken]

Originally posted by Ryn:

Originally posted by Asken:

You mean me? i relie on mods that make the game fun for me if thats what you mean haha, also they mods are rather well alive and still reciving a few updates + prettyyyy alive on their discord :)

You can literally go on RBM and many other mods on Nexus and see 100+ comments complaining there are no updates. What mods are you using that you've not had any issues?

because im still on 1.1.6 as 1.2 is in beta, which everyone else compalins about lol

[Ryan]

Originally posted by Asken:

Originally posted by Ryn:

You can literally go on RBM and many other mods on Nexus and see 100+ comments complaining there are no updates. What mods are you using that you've not had any issues?

because im still on 1.1.6 as 1.2 is in beta, which everyone else compalins about lol

Ugh. This version stuff is so annoying aaaaa

[e.don]

Originally posted by Coxinga:

Is the skein formation worth it? It might be better for cavalry charges, but I feel that it can take a while for the formation to turn when your leading a charge. What you might be gaining in charges, you're losing in mobility.

pretty sure its highest tier troop at the tip and lower tier flanking i the game...

someone on you t ube has formations video..