Being an Evil Bastard. And loving it...

[jrc]

You know, for the longest time, I was stuck on being poor at the game start. I couldn't get any traction. I started smithing, made a ton of money, built up, joined a clan, eventually got a castle and a town, only to lose them because the AI has no concept of "fortify that place or they'll take it right back." I became annoyed. Very annoyed. You know what Machiavelli said, right? "So far as he is able, a prince should stick to the path of good but, if the necessity arises, he should know how to follow evil."

So I did. It turns out that being evil is very profitable, because good is dumb.

They are raising strong armies? Strong armies don't last forever. Avoid them, and when they break up, follow the individuals and kill anyone weaker than yourself. Kill enough weaker AI, and armies stop forming. Kill the right AI, and clans vanish. Never use force to attempt something that can be obtained by cunning. Negatives to relationships? Hah. There's only so many that are offended, and they can't get lower than -100. Haters gonna hate. Besides, eventually, you can kill them too.

Take a good look at the forces you are fighting. Oh, the young girl is cute... that must be an accident because, in general, the AI appearances affect me the same way as those spiders in Elder Scrolls. Oh... she's 18.... a complete noob. Who are her family members? Where do they live. Such a nice family; it'd be a shame if something were to happen to them. Oh, I see that her dad was killed in battle.. brave of her to take up her father's sword. Sad, though. Such a pity, but on the bright side, she'll be seeing him again really soon... and so will her mom... and her sisters, and any brothers she might happen to have. And her tenants... and her pets. And some people that remind me of her. Unfortunate, that none of them lived long enough for marriage. Maybe if they'd stayed at home and raised babies, they would have lived. Ultimately, death for them means death for their whole clan. One less competitor. If only the AI wasn't so hopeless. Mwah hah hah hah hah!

The thing is this: the game has no idea how to react to it, because not enough time was spent considering the results of NOT planning for it. Realistically, the first time you executed a lord/lady, there would be a protest to your kingdom, right? You could probably blow it off by spending some influence with the king "He insulted my horse. I had to kill him." If it kept happening, however, you'd start making your own people nervous, because if you can kill off an enemy like that... what happens if you decide you are unhappy with your own king? You might even have your places raided by "friendly" forces. They might try to kick you out of the kingdom, or send assassins to get rid of you. James Bond might show up to have a talk with you. Eventually, there would be a rather large army assembled to just to deal with you. As in Pendor, they would use small scouting units to move faster than you, so that the large force could come into play. The end scene would be your head being held up high to a cheering crowd. But the game can't do this, and it seems like not a single one of the programmers paid any attention to the mods that were keeping their game afloat for the last 9 years.

So I'm having fun, wrecking havoc, killing women and children without remorse, and I'll continue to do so until they patch their poor choices. Why?

Because it's the only way they're going to stop me.

[Emperor2000]

You know you can kill them in battle?
You don't need to execute them, if you can kill them in battle.

I have one hostile hero death per battle in average and battania is really dying out, because of battle death.

[atalusun]

Your ramble down the dark path sounds interesting from a roleplaying perspective. May give it a try.

[Muscarine]

Bannerlord has room for roleplay and that's nice, but the traits system still needs some work

It's way too easy to gain honor, way too difficult to gain valor, next to impossible to get calculator if you didn't get it during chargen, etc

I also wish traits were more polarizing, who cares for -2 or +2 relations
I mean, right now you can +100 any lord by dumping a handful vassal prisoners at their dungeon

Make it -30 just because they don't like out face, so they don't want us anywhere near them or their properties, and give us more diplomatic options to try and fix relations if we're so inclined

I think executing lords and ladies is fine as it is, the problem is that -100 relations does nothing

[jrc]

Hey, if they die in battle (and about 1 in 3 times they do... especially if I can locate them), that's fine. If not... the axe whispers to me. I'll do them left-handed, because "it's the only way I can be satisfied. If I use my right, it's over too quickly."

As you say, the -100 doesn't hurt me at all. There should be consequences, they should be meaningful, and frankly, the game-play aspect would be exceptional if I had to deal with whatever the consequences were.

I mean, there's no INTERPOL, is there? No KGB-style state security. And yet we have a clear historical record of what happens when you get enough power to worry a king... remember the trumped up charges against the Templars? "If some among them are innocent, it is expedient that they should be assayed like gold in the furnace and purged by proper judicial examination.” What about Thomas Becket? "Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?"

Royalty is jealous of its prerogatives and its power. The game should reflect that, at least.

Missed opportunities, IMO.

Give in to the dark side. We don't have cookies, but our executioner whistles old Burt Bacharach tunes on his way up the scaffolding "What the world needs now is love, sweet love..."

[Janek]

Long time ago I read somewhere someone got executed by the AI after getting caught, because he killed too many nobles.

I wonder if its still true and if that would be your "consequence"

[EmpressMelanie]

Hey you haven't played any Bethesda games until you have walked the evil path. Be whatever you want, sandbox baby!

[Morkonan]

Originally posted by jrc:

...
The thing is this: the game has no idea how to react to it, because not enough time was spent considering the results of NOT planning for it....

Taleworlds well knows the situation with what is called "Lord Drought."

It was a significant issue in Warband. Lords would abandon a losing faction or one where they couldn't get Fiefs and try to join ones that had fiefs to give. And, when they wouldn't accept them due to "AI Reason" or they still didn't get factions? They would go off to "foreign lands" and physically leave the map. There was a chance they could return, though, but they'd stay gone for long periods of time, sometimes permanently.

Why is this a problem in Warband as well as in Bannerlord?

Because the only way any faction can project force is through Lords and their parties/armies. That's it - It's the only way they can participate in the game.

Taleworlds knows this.

But...

They added the Execution mechanic presumably because a lot of very vocal people wanted to chop the heads off of NPCs in a Warband II game.... Somehow, they thought that the reputation hit would counteract the possible negative effects on gameplay by a willful human that is more intelligent than a machine.

It was a terribad idea and I've long complained about it, but nobody listens to me even if I point out it's introducing the same game-breaking design problem encountered in Warband.

Nobody listens. This "participatory" Early Access program is just me shouting in a dark jungle, not knowing what terrors lurk in the shadows.

IMO - Executions should be removed entirely. They are an "exploit" and an easy way to cheese the game despite "Clan Dynasty" births/replacement features. If they absolutely must be in the game, then the player should be declared "Exiled, Kill on Sight" by every faction and curb-stomped out of the game if they Execute more than just a couple of really annoying (Roleplayed, since NPCs are pieces of wood in Bannerlord) Lords.

[jrc]

I don't have a problem with the mechanic. In fact, I like it, since it allows me to play the dark side. You're right, however, there should be earth shattering consequences. Apache gunship-type consequences. The reasoning is clear: the map has evolved politically the way it is because the warfare has settled into an expected pattern. It's the same reason why factions in Bannerlord have trouble running over each other. Then the player comes along and alters the balance forever. And the game can't adapt. The conversation threads and conventions remain the same.

So you still get the same stupid conversation threads "I hear you have defeated my ally so-and-so; ever since, I have wanted to avenge them." I mean, that's not even correct. "I slaughtered your wife after I captured her. I slaughtered most of his/her troops and sold the remainder in to slavery. I'm death. Your children will be raised without a last name. You should have run when you had the chance."

Oh, got my butt handed to me last night... I've got an 80 in scouting, and for the life of me I can't see what good it does if I can't see an army an inch away. Blundered into a 560 man army with some decent troops in it. I had my 150 mixed cavalry. Nothing to do but fight it out. When they knocked me out, they had 135 guys left, mostly wounded. The game should have ended for me right after knock-out, but instead, they lost 4 lords in the process of taking me prisoner, and then didn't kill me. Eventually, I escaped and returned to threaten them again. Every time my country agreed to peace, I burned a farm and we were back at war. I should have been banished, but there were NO CONSEQUENCES. My influence even went up.

[Lich Lord]

Playing Sturgia and i agree. i was making ok money at war but with 2 castles now one and Varcheg taken by battians i started murdering them all out of spite. Caladog fell in battle to my Axe. Then his 2 successors and i executed his wife and daughter now a turn coat imperial runs battia and is running it to the ground.

I intend to take Flint tonight then cross the bridge and start picking off their lands piece by piece. i'm almost T4 and have enough influence to raise my own army a few times over. Let the scorched earth campaign begin.

[~ Fabulous ~]

Originally posted by Janek:

Long time ago I read somewhere someone got executed by the AI after getting caught, because he killed too many nobles.

I wonder if its still true and if that would be your "consequence"

only if they beat you in battle huehuehue

[Ⓦⓗⓘⓩⓚⓘⓓ]

bannerlord = game of extinction...

[𝔗𝔢𝔞 ❀]

Yes, now you know how to defeat even the most powerful factions.

[Urmel]

some lords/clans are so powerfull, that it can be very profitable to destroy them and accept the disadvantages for this behavior.

[𝔗𝔢𝔞 ❀]

Originally posted by Urmel:

some lords/clans are so powerfull, that it can be very profitable to destroy them and accept the disadvantages for this behavior.

Yeah, of if they have taken a few losses, take the rep hit and finish off those that are left.

[Morkonan]

Originally posted by jrc:

I don't have a problem with the mechanic. In fact, I like it, since it allows me to play the dark side. You're right, however, there should be earth shattering consequences. Apache gunship-type consequences. The reasoning is clear: the map has evolved politically the way it is because the warfare has settled into an expected pattern. It's the same reason why factions in Bannerlord have trouble running over each other. Then the player comes along and alters the balance forever. And the game can't adapt. The conversation threads and conventions remain the same.

Without a mechanic that is purposefully put into the game to replace Lords with ones of equal caliber, not just spawning in RNG Lord Nobody, the game will never "adapt" to a player making frequent use of the Execution mechanic. NPC Clan succession helps, but it can not keep pace with a determined player.

So, we'd have to have a more robust penalty system or else... somehow reduce the success rate of Executions?

"Sorry, milord, but Lord Devito has no neck."

....Oh, got my butt handed to me last night... I've got an 80 in scouting, and for the life of me I can't see what good it does if I can't see an army an inch away. Blundered into a 560 man army with some decent troops in it. I had my 150 mixed cavalry. Nothing to do but fight it out. When they knocked me out, they had 135 guys left, mostly wounded. The game should have ended for me right after knock-out, but instead, they lost 4 lords in the process of taking me prisoner, and then didn't kill me. Eventually, I escaped and returned to threaten them again. Every time my country agreed to peace, I burned a farm and we were back at war. I should have been banished, but there were NO CONSEQUENCES. My influence even went up.

An important note on that - Gamers do not like it when the are hit with things that they don't like that are the result of something being out of their control, especially in an RPG where it involves their own character.

So, when captured, what if the player could themselves be executed?

The forums would explode and Steam would crash and someone would end up kicking over Gabe's Wallet to invest in additional hosting to handle the rants. As it is, players complain about NPCs just "not liking" them after Executing Lords. (I haven't seen as many of those threads, so I imagine there's a mod now that takes care of that.)

The player just needs to be curbstomped by "The Entire Map" once they go "renegade" and become Public Enemy Number One. They shouldn't find any safe-haven in respectable society. They should be treated like a criminal. (It could be that they could still be hired as a Merc by desperate factions, though.)

But, they should then be able to peacefully visit Bandit Hideouts, since they too are a refuge from "The Law." :) There, they could buy/sell, hire bandit types, get some rep with Bandit Faction and maybe then sneak into Towns by paying off Gangs to lead them through secret passages in the sewers if they were truly desperate.