An idea for Smithing

[flyingscot1066]

I don't know how people will feel about this, but it has become apparent that the current Smithing system is pretty well either disliked by most, and tolerated by the rest for the easy money. I'm in both camps myself.

There are some aspects of the current system that I like, but not how they are implemented. I like being able to unlock the various pieces, and being able to do so via smelting old weapons. What I do not like is the fact that you unlock random pieces of varying types of weapons of varying difficulty.
Change smelting to Smelt Weapon Type X of Tier Y Get Y Research Points in Weapon Type X. Example: I smelt a rusty spatha (Tier 1). That gives me 1 Research Point in 1 Hand Swords. As I accumulate RPs in the 1 Hand Swords category, it progressively unlocks Blades, Pommels, Hilts, and Handles. The actual mathematical bit of this is for another discussion.
There is ZERO reason smelting a spatha should teach me how to craft a Bardiche. If I want to learn how to make axes, I need to do my research on axes.
Also, change it from Smelting to Breaking Down. Smelting is more like what the lower tiers of Refining is now. Also, remove the material reclamation from this process. Or reduce it significantly.

Refining: I don't hate this part. In fact, it become vastly more important if the material reclamation aspect is removed from Smelting. Ores (iron, silver, etc) will become much more necessary, especially if some other tweaks are made to the game to expand the trade economy, with the addition of different trade resources, like tin, copper, gold, gems, etc. Adding bronze, silver, and gold, as well as gem-cutting to the Refining line opens up vast possibilities for traders, plus can be worked into Smithing for those higher tier weapons (and armor, hint hint TW..)

Forging: This part can be mostly left alone, with the exception of how parts are unlocked through forging, to align with how it would work by breaking down old weapons. If I am turning out Thamaskene Kaskaras, I might get better at making a War Hammer by being a better smith (which is represented by an increase in my Smithing Skill), but it shouldn't give me insights on how to make a new War Hammer that I didn't already know.

The costs of weapons should be a combination of Where it's being sold (Battanians will pay more for a 2 handed sword than Khuzaits will, and lances sell better in Vlandia than in Battania), the materials involved (a 1 Iron 1 Hardwood javelin should NOT cost more than a sword using 4 steel, 3 Fine Steel, 1 Hardwood, regardless of damage stat), and of course supply on hand, just like trade goods already do.

I know TW is highly unlikely to want to do a complete overhaul on the smithing system, especially as this notion has tendrils that reach into other systems, but I figure if there's any time to ask for major changes, Early Access is the time to do it.

Comments and suggestions welcome.

[Karl Power]

This is a more thought through system than the one currently in use. I like the idea that you can focus on a specific weapon type and unlock/develop the parts for it.

However making the player allocate research points means we'll all spend even more time clicking through menus than we do already. I like smithing myself, it brings in tons of money but only if you devote significant time into it, which in my view is the way it should be. But smithing takes a back seat from swinging my axe into other people's face. This is the core of the game, beating other people and horses to a pulp. It is not a smithing simulator. I'd therefore opt for a more focused, much less random, but still easy to use smithing system with as few mouse clicks as possible.

[flyingscot1066]

Originally posted by Karl Power:

This is a more thought through system than the one currently in use. I like the idea that you can focus on a specific weapon type and unlock/develop the parts for it.

However making the player allocate research points means we'll all spend even more time clicking through menus than we do already. I like smithing myself, it brings in tons of money but only if you devote significant time into it, which in my view is the way it should be. But smithing takes a back seat from swinging my axe into other people's face. This is the core of the game, beating other people and horses to a pulp. It is not a smithing simulator. I'd therefore opt for a more focused, much less random, but still easy to use smithing system with as few mouse clicks as possible.

Thanks for the comment, and apparently I wasn't clear about the research points. You wouldn't have to click through, it's a progressive unlocking. The parts are in series, when you get to 1 research point, the iron spatha blade unlocks, at 2 points, iron scimitar, etc., no need to pick and choose.

[Morkonan]

Originally posted by flyingscot1066:

...
Comments and suggestions welcome.

Once, after dinner, I sat down and did a complete analysis and revamp suggestion list for Bannerlord's Blacksmithing mechanic. It took around four hours or so.

I didn't post it because it's not deserved. Nobody is paying me for it. And, I'm certainly not going to expect to receive better gameplay for having posted it.

Plus, it was a pretty hefty doc and the word count is more than many younger forum readers would have actually ever had to read at one sitting, given today's education system and the existence of social media. It's more suitable for a white-paper, I guess.

But, since you asked, I'll note the obvious bits:

"Blacksmithing" is dumb. There's no way around the fact that it was not intelligently designed for a "battle fighting" game with light RPG elements and 4x/RTS style play. Someone was taking drugs when they committed Blackmsithing to Bannerlord.

That being said:

1) The number of component choices per base item must absolutely be reduced: There are appoximately fifty-eleven-thousand possible combinations of materials, components, and bases. If one includes the "length"/whatsits factor, that total of possible crafting products rises to a degree that would challenge my crappy laptop to compute. It's stupid design at its finest.

2) Blacksmithing base activity is dumb: Remove the need for Wood/Charcoal crafting stages as they are in no way appopriate for a game that is not centered around "crafting." Bannerlord is NOT a dang "crafting game." Someone who should not have received a paycheck for coming up with this is unfairly occupying a seat at a table they have no business sitting at.

3) Blacksmithing does not promote interacting with other game elements: It just doesn't. The opportunity is completely lost here and Blacksmithing is a means-and-end all by itself. It's not even of the quality of a "Gems" game shoved into Everquest so people have something to do while waiting on a raid to form. At least that had a friggin QoL purpose. (If anyone understands that ref.)

Blacksmithing's only interaction element with other mechanics are also occupied by... anyone? Can anyone answer that, even TW? It's OTHER game mechanics and play elements. YET, it is designed as some huge thing with its own Perk system. That slot occupies an ENTIRE PERK TREE. A whole friggin Perk system? For Blacksmithing? Who got paid for that?

Suggestions:

A) The player can discover simple, low-tier, "recipes" for constructing finished works. But, no further. When the player constructs "high-tier" items, there is a very tiny chance of getting an inspired recipe discovery. VERY tiny. (ie: The "there's always hope" element.)

B) Recipes are mostly found as:

1) Bandit Chief Drops

2) Loot from battles with Heads of Clans

3) Loot from battles with Kings

4) Sometimes awarded through completing Notable quests.

5) Rarely offered by certain Lords/Kings to players in their Faction for special quests. (Special Faction-Specific Recipes only available if the player is in that faction.)

6) Winning "Grand Tournaments" - For really "flashy" and decorative bits. Non-tournament players won't ever see these, but they're not "OP." They're just cool bits of flashy bits, like a "Bat Wing" crossguard or some jagged, shiny, blade.

7) Sometimes found inside of Town scenes or offered when speaking to Townfolk. (ie: The old Warband "strange armor" bit. 'Cause we kind of need a reason to walk around in Town scenes that TW paid people to create, right?)

Edit- added a couple I had forgot about, but am not going to revist my design doc for more 'cause I don't wanna... :)

C) The Perk Tree for Blacksmithing is stupid: It's just plain ungood design for a game like Bannerlord. This is NOT a crafting game. In no way has the IP franchise EVER been a crafting game. /sigh Yet, TW dedicated an entire Perk tree to it. WTF is going on over there?

Delete it. Instead, add Blacksmiithing "Perks" within the other Perk trees as an additional element. That is, of course, unless they add a bunch of Bow/Armor/Etc crafts. If they do, generalize the Perk tree to include all crafting. I don't think they're competent enough to do that, no mater if I love them or not - Truth is truth.

D) Rent-A-Forge is dumb: In order to access "Blacksmithing," a monster in the game with its own whole Perk tree and companion mechanics, the player should have to "invest" in it by building... what? Anyone? You know, maybe a "Workshop?" That's another tie-in with outside game mechanics/elements that was friggin ignored because someone is getting paid to ignore "game" in favor of "gee, I think this is a good idea." So, the player must first purchase a Blacksmith Workshop in order to be able to "Blacksmith." Not everyone can just starting blacksmithing stuffs, right? IF the player owns a fief, they can build a Blacksmith there above-and-beyond the normal Workshop mechanic. That means it is their "Personal Smithy." (Or, whatever they would call it.) They can only ever have one of these and if the fief is successfully besieged, they have a good chance of losing it. (They'd have to rebuild.)

4) "We don't need no stinking other crafting:" It's the elephant in the room. TW went to such huge pains to lubricate Bannerlord and then shove Blacksmithing into it that the absence of other crafting options is incomprehensible. IF TW keeps Blacksmithing as such a big game element, they'd have no other choice but to include Woodworking (Shields/Bows) and special Armor Crafting. But, those aren't in the game. Somewhere at TW there's an office/cube with a fish diagram chart in it, I bet, that shows someone thunked up other crafting ideas. Not that they should have, but I'm sure they did anyway.


5) Overall - Blacksmithing is some darn huge beast in the game.

Blacksmithing has more interaction elements than ANY other game mechanic in the game outside of moving the mouse and clicking many buttons to do the hitting of stuffs in ARPG battle elements.

That's no joke. That is no overstatement at all. Count them...

Count up all the actions, button presses, and stages in Blacksmithing and you will find it is a more complex, intimate, and progressive bit of gameplay than ANY other activity in Bannerlord outside of moving one's mouse and clicking all sorts of button commands in action-combat. Sure, that action only lasts five minutes, while Blacksmithing one crappy piece of junk could take twenty... with more interaction with buttons/movement on the map than is warranted.

My suggestions, and complaints, revolve entirely around simplifying the mechanic and, most importantly, incorporating it into the main gameplay components. ANY suggestion to "improve" the system must be focused on accomplishing these two things.



The only reason Blacksmithing remains so very lucrative is because TW knows it has not yet fixed primary gameplay and does not want to have to deal with the resulting crap-storm should they properly balance Blacksmithing's economic returns... It's the only thing that supports some player's gameplay. And, TW is continuing to teach these players how to play the game poorly and rewarding them for that. I can't wait for the explosion once TW adjusts Blacksmithing's economic returns... (IF they do. They may not. If they don't, then they'll have "abandoned" proper game development.)

IN ALL THINGS "GAME" - A game has to have elements that promote playing and enjoying the game. Everything must first be considered "is it fun" followed by "does it draw the player into further gameplay" and ending with "does the player feel rewarded for their efforts."

Blacksmithing... doesn't do any of that. Instead, it's used to supplant the existence of good and necessary gameplay/game balance and polish by "throwing currency at it." Blacksmithing is the "Candy Crush" of Bannerlord. They may as well include a "Level Up "DING after every darn click in Blacksmithing for all it's worth to the overall gameplay experience.

Final Verdict - The game and the players would be much better served without Blacksmithing existing in it. But, TW rushed off where angels fear to tread and now they are going to have to deal with the result of very poor development planning choices.

[Karl Power]

@ Flying Scot:

No principal objections then, if you keep a small random element (for spicing up things). For me however the main work to be done is in the performance department; smithing as it is now does not seem an urgent issue to me. I'll hope/assume we get tons and tons of mods once the game releases (I know there are many already but I stay away from them until the game is done). We will surely soon have a mod in which you can craft a Panzerfaust which plays "Erika" whenever you hit a cataphract with it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRFVtW4GUrg

[Morkonan]

Originally posted by Karl Power:

...We will surely soon have a mod in which you can craft a Panzerfaust which plays "Erika" whenever you hit a cataphract with it
..

If one's Cataphracts aren't singling Panzerleid, is one even Cataphracting?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JDkdc246QQ

[Karl Power]

Originally posted by Morkonan:

IN ALL THINGS "GAME" - A game has to have elements that promote playing and enjoying the game. Everything must first be considered "is it fun" followed by "does it draw the player into further gameplay" and ending with "does the player feel rewarded for their efforts."

Blacksmithing... doesn't do any of that. Instead, it's used to supplant the existence of good and necessary gameplay/game balance and polish by "throwing currency at it." Blacksmithing is the "Candy Crush" of Bannerlord. They may as well include a "Level Up "DING after every darn click in Blacksmithing for all it's worth to the overall gameplay experience.

Final Verdict - The game and the players would be much better served without Blacksmithing existing in it.

I strongly disagree. I find blacksmithing extremely addictive and love to equip my companions with weapons specifically crafted for them. I like the short infantry swords (fast swing, low range, medium damage) for myself and for NPCs, and the ones I can craft now (smithing 288, most lvl 5 components unlocked) are significantly better than the ones I find on offer. Most importantly, they look the way I want them to look. Customizing parts is highly satisfactory also from an aesthetic perspective.

You say smithing does not add fun and immersion to the game? For me it does that to a HUGE degree. I cannot figure any of my future heroes not being blacksmiths. I can't imagine my future companions being equipped with any other than custom designer murder tools.

Yes smithing is a gimmick and not a necessary component of the game. It is tedious to a degree (the amounts of wood I have turned into coal probably equals all forests in North America and Europe in 1500; my mouseclicks must count millions). It should not be the core of Bannerlord. But for me at least, I have come to love it and would never want to do without smithing again.

[italianeddie65]

I like smithing in the game, granted there aren't a lot of creative avenues to use it, Battles, hideouts and clearing gangs in cities, as well as prison breaks. It would be nice to add a few more choices, Not so much as Kingdom Come Deliverance but it add to the experience

[MinenSpecht]

Originally posted by flyingscot1066:

I don't know how people will feel about this, but it has become apparent that the current Smithing system is pretty well either disliked by most, and tolerated by the rest for the easy money. I'm in both camps myself.

There are some aspects of the current system that I like, but not how they are implemented. I like being able to unlock the various pieces, and being able to do so via smelting old weapons. What I do not like is the fact that you unlock random pieces of varying types of weapons of varying difficulty.

.
.
.
I know TW is highly unlikely to want to do a complete overhaul on the smithing system, especially as this notion has tendrils that reach into other systems, but I figure if there's any time to ask for major changes, Early Access is the time to do it.

Comments and suggestions welcome.

So theres this smithing Thread in TW Forums where the DEVs post how things will change.

Here is an example:
"Crafting Pieces and Unlocking
Another issue we had was the fully randomized part unlocking system and the lack of pieces for certain weapon types. We will try to address these issues together as we make the unlocking system more "controllable" such that the items player crafts and the item pieces they unlock are inline and players can focus on smithing certain weapons to progress faster in the crafting pieces.
For this reason, we also plan to expand the "piece catalog" of some weapon types. These will be the types in which we currently do not have many parts available (e.g. two-handed maces)."

Theres more information about it. Just visit TW forums.

[Kai]

Add 'crafting recipes' to shops randomly and you can 'activate' them in the inventory screen to learn them?

Add 'modified' variants of armor and weapons that you can wear in towns/cities, at a loss of some stats basically. Like bring small bows into a city.

[flyingscot1066]

Originally posted by MinenSpecht:

Originally posted by flyingscot1066:

I don't know how people will feel about this, but it has become apparent that the current Smithing system is pretty well either disliked by most, and tolerated by the rest for the easy money. I'm in both camps myself.

There are some aspects of the current system that I like, but not how they are implemented. I like being able to unlock the various pieces, and being able to do so via smelting old weapons. What I do not like is the fact that you unlock random pieces of varying types of weapons of varying difficulty.

.
.
.
I know TW is highly unlikely to want to do a complete overhaul on the smithing system, especially as this notion has tendrils that reach into other systems, but I figure if there's any time to ask for major changes, Early Access is the time to do it.

Comments and suggestions welcome.

So theres this smithing Thread in TW Forums where the DEVs post how things will change.

Here is an example:
"Crafting Pieces and Unlocking
Another issue we had was the fully randomized part unlocking system and the lack of pieces for certain weapon types. We will try to address these issues together as we make the unlocking system more "controllable" such that the items player crafts and the item pieces they unlock are inline and players can focus on smithing certain weapons to progress faster in the crafting pieces.
For this reason, we also plan to expand the "piece catalog" of some weapon types. These will be the types in which we currently do not have many parts available (e.g. two-handed maces)."

Theres more information about it. Just visit TW forums.

That's cool info, thanks for the heads up. I'll go take a look.

[dande48]

I thought the new "orders" was a nice touch; craft weapons to fit specific requirements for a relations boost. It's like a mini-game with the sliders, figuring out what works for the cheapest cost. It can get a bit grindy though.

[Morkonan]

(Note to OP: Sorry... This is just a sore subject with me and elicits a rise in blood-pressure and fight-or-flight basic survival instincts. IF Blacksmithing must remain, I'd agree with many of your suggestions. Always, however, to simplify blacksmithing and to incorporate it more fully into existing gameplay.)

Originally posted by Karl Power:

... But for me at least, I have come to love it and would never want to do without smithing again.

I am not saying that you can not like or even love it. :)

I'm simply saying that it is not a good fit for this game's gameplay. Further, and in my opinion, it's... badly designed on its face for any game other than a "Crafting Game." Even there, it's lacking a lot of gameplay elements that such a genre would have, too.

But, if it must remain in Bannerlord, likely due to the lack of an effective vaccine, meaning it will take its place alongside Herpes and Ebola, then it must absolutely help to reinforce other gameplay and should be more closely engaged with other game elements.

But, honestly - You can love it if you want to. :) Gamers in general LOVE having the ability to customize characters and their appearance. As they should, since engaging with characters is intrinsic to "role-playing games." (Obviously, I think it is Evil and irredeemable and should be expunged from the Universe... ;))

So, let's just say that the unfortunate inevitability of Blacksmithing remaining in Bannerlord will come to pass.

If that is the case, which is most certainly is since TW can't just take it away now:

What do you think about some of the suggestions in the OP's post as well as mine? Would you like to see some mechanics about Blacksmithing being made less tedious? Would you like to see more elements of Blacksmithing leading to deeper engagement with other gameplay mechanics?

Note: Something like this current "Blacksmithing" would be mildly appropriate if there were other deep elements in the game to support it, like "running a blacksmith shop" or "having a "Headquarters" and a sense of one's Clan being truly "special" so all this customizing would have more of an impact. No doubt, mods will eventually rise to the occasion here. So, you should be happy - Expect a "Bannerlord Crafting - Expanded" mod. :)

[Scottx125]

Blacksmithing at the moment is tedious. It's nice that it's in the game. Personally I'm not interested in it. What would be nice is if you could commission AI blacksmiths to make high quality custom armour and weapons for a high price. Just like the AI can do for you by putting in blacksmithing requests.

[Cat]

So on one hand smithing is broken - half the game for me is crafting 30-100k two handed swords selling them off in bulk to every city on route.
On the other hand, I have to do that. There are no other viable ways to make cash.

We need MAJOR buffs to every other profit source. Prisoner ransoms, Loot, Caravans and workshops, quests, fiefs, tributes. Everything. Then you can start looking at balancing smithing so it's a feature to let you get cool weapons.

The game economy is so broken, especially late game. You make pennies barely enough to keep yourself going but one piece of gear is 200k. Bribing a lord? 400k. Upgrading one small party of troops? 100k
Your income? 1k per day if you're blessed enough to not have to support a garrison for anything. Better skip 500 days before you head out and pray nothing attacks.