The sandbox game mechanics are unfair.

[Hijodeleon]

The sandbox game mechanics are unfair.
You start the game with nothing and you do everything with effort and killing.

You get money as a mercenary but it never pays the bills.
If you don't kill you don't win.

To kill you need troops and troops demand more money and only selling the spoils of the battles which is all "broken junk" (this is fair because what is used is used) keeps you going.

You decide to serve some lord and you better commit suicide because this is worse. Now you lost your only income.
But there are only bandits that give no profit and no enemy armies because the king is not at war.
Why can't you earn in peace too?
And on top of that you are taxed

You can afford to buy a store hoping for some income and forget about money. You lost it because the store that produces the most in the cities of the faction you serve doesn't even produce enough to support your troops.

The best stores are in the cities of the enemy faction.
If you don't produce cotton cloth you don't earn enough.

The nemesis took the city where your store was located and you lost your meager income.
Why? his family is at home and they is still working in the store.
What if he has no family?
He has a manager and workers and they are not at war with anyone. Because they have to pay for that.

It is not fair.

I know you can get money and a lot of settlements. I know the game.

But there is something in the game that is not balanced

and it is not fair.

[ᴍᴜꜱʜ-ᴄʀÆᴍ?]

Originally posted by Sheepify:

Originally posted by Psycho-Active:

I hope you are proven wrong

So do I. Oh, so very much, even if I don't expect it at all :(

Originally posted by Psycho-Active:

the modding community because they are truly like no other.

Myeah... in between the glacial progress and TW getting caught red-handed blocking access to core game elements, they managed to piss off a lot of the veteran modders enough for them to just move on, if not altogether than at least in effective terms.

They back-tracked on using internals to lock out parts of the code, but that hasn't happened before a serious drama, and if TW knows how to do one thing "right," it's to take relatively easily salvageable situation and turn it into a complete ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.

Hope that final release will bring a lot of the old people back, but... wouldn't count on it, either. Perhaps new people will carry the torch on, but so far TW even managed to remove a lot of accumulated experience from the modding scene for no good reason other than "saving face."

Yeah I have followed the modding debacle much more, we lost bloc which is a ridiculous blow to TW even if they don't acknowledge it. Yet, and maybe it's the optimist in me, I feel bloc will return when TW finally give in and stop fannying around. Others though will undoubtedly carry the flame for sure and thats partly what I mean, they probably know this too. The internal blocking still exists in some capacity if I'm not mistaken but slowly with time more is becoming accessible. As it currently stands modders have enough to begin bigger projects like one I'm really excited for (kingdom come) but I think they still need more to perfect these mods, there's a few big ones in the works.

[ᴍᴜꜱʜ-ᴄʀÆᴍ?]

Originally posted by Sheepify:

Originally posted by Psycho-Active:

we lost bloc which is a ridiculous blow to TW even if they don't acknowledge it

It's not just bloc, I know of two "large" mod teams that just basically dissolved after the whole thing - and those were people who were extremely passionate about Warband, which drove their desire to improve Bannerlord in the first place.

I can't say I'm surprised. Why waste hundreds of hours of your time supporting a studio that not just doesn't realize how much all that past unpaid labor contributed toward their success, but one that turns around and does crap like TW did?

I'm sure there'll be talented people modding Bannerlord, but... by the time they release, they better hope nothing else with modding potential raises over the horizon, because a lot of people are annoyed with their stance as a studio enough to need just a little bit of self-motivation to bail altogether.

In one way perhaps it would be the kick up the arse they need, but no you are right it isn't fair to not give them the recognition they deserve, I'd be pissed too. Bloc though, definitely my favourite mod on both bannerlord and warband.

Originally posted by Sheepify:

TW already nuked a highly popular MP server, apparently because - and this is verbatim coming from a TW developer in communication with Mr.Teaoftime - the volunteers running that server and improving the gameplay on it were doing so much better job than TW itself could put out it made them "look bad."

Read this thread on their site, it basically amounted to that yes but it was specifically around the time the designers (dont laugh) had spent in MP and were completely outplayed - so their time and effort was going unappreciated. No excuse is it.

Originally posted by Sheepify:

TW still seems to think that Warband was a perfectly fleshed-out game, and that grind was the driving mechanism of its success.

Lol, no definitely not, their success was due to mods no two ways about it - the game vanilla doesnt compare. Also apparently alot of the warband devs aren't actually on bannerlord or even work for them anymore (not sure how accurate that is though)

[Super Cosmic Space Magnet]

Yes, it is unfair - but it is fun.

If money continues to be a woe in the early game, you can always raid settlements. Doing so while a vassal of a kingdom will plunge that kingdom into war without a need for a declaration from your kingdom (though your liege will dislike you for doing it). Does that matter though..? HECK NO. Screw that guy. You're just gonna kill him once you swap sides anyway.

Hit the arena. Get swole. Bet on yourself, and win big - and don't swan around with a giant army unless you are gonna use it for something. I've grown to really enjoy doing what I call "Lu Bu playthroughs", where you try to maximise your personal combat stats as much as possible and are just a massive opportunistic jerk. It's pretty hard to get your character killed in this game, so you've not got anything to lose by fighting as much and as often as possible.

I did a merchant prince type playthrough too, and yes you can get filthy rich doing laps of Calradia buying low and selling high, but that feels very.. unengaged? You can just cruise control to high Trade as an independent (not even a merc) and then buy the universe. I didn't finish that campaign though because if your whole gameplay experience is "buy green, sell red" then boy does it get boring fast.

... heck I wanna play this game again, it's been a couple of patches. I'ma give it another whirl!

[ᴍᴜꜱʜ-ᴄʀÆᴍ?]

Originally posted by Super Cosmic Space Magnet:

Yes, it is unfair - but it is fun.

If money continues to be a woe in the early game, you can always raid settlements. Doing so while a vassal of a kingdom will plunge that kingdom into war without a need for a declaration from your kingdom (though your liege will dislike you for doing it). Does that matter though..? HECK NO. Screw that guy. You're just gonna kill him once you swap sides anyway.

Hit the arena. Get swole. Bet on yourself, and win big - and don't swan around with a giant army unless you are gonna use it for something. I've grown to really enjoy doing what I call "Lu Bu playthroughs", where you try to maximise your personal combat stats as much as possible and are just a massive opportunistic jerk. It's pretty hard to get your character killed in this game, so you've not got anything to lose by fighting as much and as often as possible.

I did a merchant prince type playthrough too, and yes you can get filthy rich doing laps of Calradia buying low and selling high, but that feels very.. unengaged? You can just cruise control to high Trade as an independent (not even a merc) and then buy the universe. I didn't finish that campaign though because if your whole gameplay experience is "buy green, sell red" then boy does it get boring fast.

... heck I wanna play this game again, it's been a couple of patches. I'ma give it another whirl!

Yeah I just re-engaged having taken a sizeable break, and for once playing a culture other than Battania - having a blast. Game seems more alive with AI killing each other and executing each other too (thats a mod mind).

[ᴍᴜꜱʜ-ᴄʀÆᴍ?]

Originally posted by Sheepify:

Originally posted by Psycho-Active:

for once playing a culture other than Battania

And there goes all my respect for you...

By the way - try Aserai and Vlandian noble line troops combined. Send the javelin Aserai first, then follow up with cavalry charge from the Vlandians quite likely into the backs of the enemy turning to face the incoming flying pointy sticks. Fun, albeit gets boring really quick (and can be quite expensive to maintain sufficient party size early on)

Lol, seriously before this very save I'm currently playing through I had not played any other culture once - I'm Vladian this time around and I definitely prefer them so think I'll stick with them. Even throughout warband I disliked the sarranids and khergits - not into horse archery as a playstyle (just dont enjoy it) - so I doubt I'll play aserai to be honest. I have focused on polearms this play through too, really loving the spear I have at the moment. That said, I'd like Vlandia to have archers or atleast archers and crossbowmen. If vlandia had archers I would have played them from the get go.

[Hijodeleon]

@Sheepify.
I value your response very much and I assume you are right in everything you say because it is excactly what it looks like at this point.

I actually understand how you feel, but I sincerely hope you are wrong or that they make what appears to be just appearances and change for the better.

I think we both wish you were wrong.
Or that a thread like this will wake them up from that macabre dream.

Edit
When I wrote this reply I had not read all the messages in the conversation between you and Psicho-Active.
But now that I read everything I am discouraged. Not so much because of the state of the game but because of the reality.
I suspected that the reasons why the game remains in this state were two possible reasons and either one of them is bad: lack of interest or lack of imagination and as you tell me they are both.
I also expected them to read these comments but I guess at this point they are not looking for answers from the community if they are competing with it.
it is unfortunate.

@Psycho-Active.
TW apparently decided that I don't like archers other than Batanian sons of nobles and all their Tiers. I always look for the same ones. What a waste.

@Super Cosmic Space Magnet

I already took the whole map of the empire and after that I planned to take the whole map and i star with Sturgians, but when I thought it was going to be a whole realm of one map for one king I got bored of the idea and after that I have started 5 or 6 more games i dont remember and I have done a lot of things but in the end I got bored and now I know why.

I know my first comment makes me look like a newbie to the game. But it's because I didn't know how to explain my point well in English, my other comments help to understand better. I actually bought the game on its release. I have over 1k hours dedicated to this game and this was on my second install and at this point I'm realizing that what we thought was "Just" the game we were waiting for, turned into an "injustice". If TW doesn't fix it, this is and will continue to be an unfair game with a mechanic that is just a pretext.

[Hasbulat]

1. Agree with original posting.
Every thread that "solve" problems listed there are just "I am soooo good!" posts.
Yes I avoided listed in opener post problems, yes I played without problems. But problems still there!
2. Economy is just corrupt and doesnt work, even dont simulate the real economy.
3. There is no content in the game exept kill looters, kill bandits, kill enemy lords, conquer (some) Sattlements. No diplomacy, very limited and broken trade - why dont you get trade expierence selling clothes, armor, weapon? Why trade XP growth if your buy cheap and sell with a bigest possible marge?
4. Kingdom is boring - there are no features to improve it, to make agreements with other rulers, to offer alliances, trade agreements etc. Just conquer" But to be honest its become boring after 3rd settlement you conquered. Ist always the same.
5. You are not able to improve really your castles and towns. Projects possibilities are very limited and boring.
6. The quest variety is poor, most quest given your malus unstead to improve anything. And takes (lot of) time. The alternatively way to assign a companion for a quest is very long termed and complicated to handle.
7. Smiting is just cheat. Income of Cities and Workshops are just sick! Caravans are very unrelalable.
8. Companions have poor skills.
9. Lot of perks doesnt affect person this perk skilled (gouvernor perks for main hero, clan leader for companions etc) why not offer an alternative for each of them?
10. Lot of skills doesnt growth in normal game - I nadnt reach high athletics without exploit it in a siege.

[Hijodeleon]

Originally posted by Hasbulat:

1. Agree with original posting.
Every thread that "solve" problems listed there are just "I am soooo good!" posts.
Yes I avoided listed in opener post problems, yes I played without problems. But problems still there!
2. Economy is just corrupt and doesnt work, even dont simulate the real economy.
3. There is no content in the game exept kill looters, kill bandits, kill enemy lords, conquer (some) Sattlements. No diplomacy, very limited and broken trade - why dont you get trade expierence selling clothes, armor, weapon? Why trade XP growth if your buy cheap and sell with a bigest possible marge?
4. Kingdom is boring - there are no features to improve it, to make agreements with other rulers, to offer alliances, trade agreements etc. Just conquer" But to be honest its become boring after 3rd settlement you conquered. Ist always the same.
5. You are not able to improve really your castles and towns. Projects possibilities are very limited and boring.
6. The quest variety is poor, most quest given your malus unstead to improve anything. And takes (lot of) time. The alternatively way to assign a companion for a quest is very long termed and complicated to handle.
7. Smiting is just cheat. Income of Cities and Workshops are just sick! Caravans are very unrelalable.
8. Companions have poor skills.
9. Lot of perks doesnt affect person this perk skilled (gouvernor perks for main hero, clan leader for companions etc) why not offer an alternative for each of them?
10. Lot of skills doesnt growth in normal game - I nadnt reach high athletics without exploit it in a siege.

@Hasbulat. Thanks for sharing your point of view.
You are right in all the points you highlight about the game, I have seen and felt it myself.

Yes, it's true that some of us may feel like we are very good players at some point in the game but I don't know a single old guard or recent player who doesn't end up asking questions or getting bored at some point in the game.

I want to highlight a point you mention about the perks.
Why in this game are they so strange?

In warband they worked very well, they complemented those of all the companions to give more effectiveness to the whole troop.

Not here.
Why would anyone think of giving an ability to the player character and at the same time limiting the player character to not being able to use it?

Can the player be the ruler of a settlement?

I have come to the conclusion that someone has come up with an idea that doesn't work and has struggled more to sustain it than to simply discard it.

I always thought that the problems that a small company like TW must have justified the fact that TW took so long to reach their achievements because their standard was high.

Now I think the reason is because they are both hard working and foolish.
They would have been better off going back to the warband if they lacked the imagination to create something new.

It would at least show an interest in pleasing their community, but at this point, not even that.
There are many more questions of nonsense in the game that are not in this thread.

For example: Why would an army of 600+ troops targeting a city be diverted to chase the player who has only 6 troops?

Also after several attempts when it detects that it can't reach it, it resumes its course.
What kind of artificial intelligence is that?

It seems to lack any intelligence and the game looks very bad.
For starters the same troop passed by the side of a castle and nothing happened as if the castle wasn't there it already had a target set.

Probably the player would be very happy if the castle was his property and maybe this makes him feel very smart. But it's a flaw in the AI that makes the game feel pointless.

Why do the allied troops that are going to defend the same besieged city take the time to go there, stop there to wait and when the attack starts they don't participate in the defense?

Who came to the conclusion that this was the best way for the game to work or the most realistic one?

In Warband it worked well.
did someone (Armagan Yavuz or his wife) from Covid die and we have not been told?

Why can't he control this situation?

I think he hasn't died, but he may not even have heard about it. Possibly someone is hiding his ineptitude to keep his job or maybe he does know and doesn't care about it other than the money, but it is costing him his most loyal community.

It is true that a pig will not eat the pearls you throw at it but it loves its mire.

We will see.

I would like to thank someone who gave me an award in this thread. I know I don't deserve it but thank you very much.

[Hijodeleon]

Originally posted by Sheepify:

Originally posted by Psycho-Active:

Even throughout warband I disliked the sarranids and khergits - not into horse archery as a playstyle (just dont enjoy it) - so I doubt I'll play aserai to be honest.

Don't need to play one - Vlandia is in a great spot to swing down southwards, do some quests, and pick up a ton of noble recruits from the various villages.

They complement Vlandian Banner Knights very well, and unlike Khuzait, can inflict quick losses because their javelins hurt a lot more than an arrow from mid-tier bow.

Originally posted by Hijodeleon:

I actually understand how you feel, but I sincerely hope you are wrong or that they make what appears to be just appearances and change for the better.

So do I, but it's a hopeless dream by now.

Originally posted by Hijodeleon:

I also expected them to read these comments but I guess at this point they are not looking for answers from the community if they are competing with it.

They were never interested in that. They had to be threatened to even post copypasta responses on this forum pretending that they adhere to the store page advertisement of "community involvement through Steam forum." They had to be called out on it, repeatedly, before they even started posting patch notes here - initially even for large patches.

I love the concept of M&B, but in Bannerlord, but TW fell flat when it comes to the execution. Considering the amount of time and money they committed to it... they have a very nice engine, and a lot of proof-of-concept implementation, rather than a self-contained, engaging, and long-lasting entertainment product.

Could be; I am believing that the answer to this thread is in this final comment of yours.

[The Big Brzezinski]

At this point, starting is the easiest part of the game for me. It's the simple part of the game, before politics and money take over everything. You recruit ten or so guys, kill a few looters. Deliver some herds. Train some borrowed troops. Upgrade your men a couple ranks. buy some horses for cavalry. Buy some decent armor. Try the tournament circuit. Knock over some bandit hideouts. Practice your skills.

Eventually you'll have enough wealth and fame for the next stage. You're not a major player, but you're no longer a nobody. You buy some workshops. Upgrade your gear. Guard a caravan or two. You might even sign on as a merc and go to war. War is a great way to make money and friends, provided you're smart. Don't waste time joining armies or worrying about influence and pay. Your merc contract is license to take another nation's wealth for yourself, plain and simple. Work independently. Get into the enemy's backfield with a mobile force and brutalize their nobles where they're weak. Don't bother taking prisoners or raiding villages. Keep moving. Go for the small, isolated targets. Smash them, grab the loot, and get out. Sell it off at a friendly or neutral town, recover your supplies and troops, and repeat.

Pretty soon, you'll be a rich and famous warrior. The kings of the land will stubble over each other to lavish lands and titles upon you for your fealty. Which they can have, for a time. Kings don't live forever. Somebody needs to take up the crown.

[ᴍᴜꜱʜ-ᴄʀÆᴍ?]

Originally posted by The Big Brzezinski:

At this point, starting is the easiest part of the game for me. It's the simple part of the game, before politics and money take over everything. You recruit ten or so guys, kill a few looters. Deliver some herds. Train some borrowed troops. Upgrade your men a couple ranks. buy some horses for cavalry. Buy some decent armor. Try the tournament circuit. Knock over some bandit hideouts. Practice your skills.

Eventually you'll have enough wealth and fame for the next stage. You're not a major player, but you're no longer a nobody. You buy some workshops. Upgrade your gear. Guard a caravan or two. You might even sign on as a merc and go to war. War is a great way to make money and friends, provided you're smart. Don't waste time joining armies or worrying about influence and pay. Your merc contract is license to take another nation's wealth for yourself, plain and simple. Work independently. Get into the enemy's backfield with a mobile force and brutalize their nobles where they're weak. Don't bother taking prisoners or raiding villages. Keep moving. Go for the small, isolated targets. Smash them, grab the loot, and get out. Sell it off at a friendly or neutral town, recover your supplies and troops, and repeat.

Pretty soon, you'll be a rich and famous warrior. The kings of the land will stubble over each other to lavish lands and titles upon you for your fealty. Which they can have, for a time. Kings don't live forever. Somebody needs to take up the crown.

That's very well said mate haha.