Vlandian Militia (Crossbowman) Archer

[Bukkacracy]

Please for the love of all that is holy give them bows. Would it seriously ruin the faction to give one Vlandian unit a bow? I know The Brotherhood of the Woods are bowmen but they're freelance mercs, not really Vlandian units. If anything TBotW show Vlandian peasants would have a strong bowmanship tradition since TBotW are practically armed peasants.

I'm so sick of these crossbows. Taleworlds, you didn't need to go all in on combining the Rhodok and Swadian rosters to the point you kept every single unit they had in Warband. A few bows here and there won't hurt.

[CromX]

Use your crossbows peasant

[Hippopotamus]

I don't mind them, in fact I'd like to be able to recruit at least the veteran ones to my party.

[Crim]

If you don't like a faction fighting style, pick a different faction...

I rather each faction have incredibly distinct units than most of them having overlap


I'm just waiting for Aserai Camel Cavalry

[Pelikan]

Beni Jawal or something have Camel cav, they are a minor clan.

As Aserai vassal , I get camel cav by defeating them then release their leader.

Crossbow is amazing. Historically even the Pope asked for them to be banned because any group of 30 guys with crossbows could be a plague on the roads and could kill mounted nobles and inflict casualties on patrols sent at them with minimal training then vanish in the woods.

It was such a problem in the high middle age that from Spain to Italy , France until Bohemia, bandits almost meant crossbowmen for some time.

Ingame they have all the advantages you would expect .. you can be more accurate by holding your shot for the perfect moment ( with a warbow you cant due to how muh strength drawing requires) , it has good penetration and is very effective as a horse killer, very useful against horse archers.

Yes you shoot slower but somehow the crossbows have more penetration against armor in the game ( which is not necessarily accurate in reality when compared to the heavier warbows like the Welsh/English longbow but perhaps could be the case compared to hunting bows cause IRL main advantage of crossbow was almost no training required to use effectively and with very good accuracy compared to an archer that needed years to achieve something similar and crossbows were more deadly when used in sieges )


I like factions roster to have their own identity rather than allowing all factions to produce similar units, and it is not like you cant make prisoners archers from other factions or bandits.

[Bukkacracy]

You guys have obviously been bought off by the Vlandian military industrial crossbow complex. You can't give everyone a crossbow. That's just insane. Giving all the serfs crossbows is like giving all the forest animals weapons to kill the hunter.
How am I supposed to believe the serfs are being oppressed when they're all armed to the teeth with the latest in military tech? I mean what is this? Feudal America?

[Mormacil]

Originally posted by Uberkoon:

You guys have obviously been bought off by the Vlandian military industrial crossbow complex. You can't give everyone a crossbow. That's just insane. Giving all the serfs crossbows is like giving all the forest animals weapons to kill the hunter.
How am I supposed to believe the serfs are being oppressed when they're all armed to the teeth with the latest in military tech? I mean what is this? Feudal America?

Han China armed entire militias with crossbows, peasants basically. It's not at all unheard off.

[Bukkacracy]

Originally posted by Mormacil:

Originally posted by Uberkoon:

You guys have obviously been bought off by the Vlandian military industrial crossbow complex. You can't give everyone a crossbow. That's just insane. Giving all the serfs crossbows is like giving all the forest animals weapons to kill the hunter.
How am I supposed to believe the serfs are being oppressed when they're all armed to the teeth with the latest in military tech? I mean what is this? Feudal America?

Han China armed entire militias with crossbows, peasants basically. It's not at all unheard off.

They also found out it was impractical and went back to bows and arrows with a few crossbows dispersed around the army. They also weren't LARPing as 11th-13th century Normans but I digress.

All factions are fresh and new with new units. Vlandia is Rhodoks and Swadia mashed together with nothing different except a billhook on one unit and a throwing axe on another. I don't see the harm in making a unit literally named ARCHER an archer.

[Scorpixel]

Out of all things you'd want to give to at best frugaly and at worst barely trained miltia, a crossbow is the absolute best ranged weapon you could field (the spear being the obvious melee one).
Almost no formation required, minimal exposure as you can reload behind your wall, all the time in the world to aim compared to a bow requiring way more muscle and experience than Hollywood and fantasy portray.

Cost? just because a bow is simpler does not mean it's cheap to make, and what's the good in fieding bows to peasants that cannot use them? The englishmen were an exception as they basically obliged their population to train their whole life, a risk since it's giving combative abilities to your peasants.
Vlandia couldn't be more of an early Francia with it's grands system of governance, heavy cav, crossbow tendency, along the "sattelite states of the Empire that became independent".

They're named archers because every other militia is and were thus overlooked, even then the name does not make the unit, "Sturgian Brigand" is not a bandit unit, "Khan's guards" are not only available to Manchug.

[Pelikan]

Indeed Good post Scorpixel, it is true that in England they did not use it much for the reason you indicated, they had a very small population ( barely 1 million when troops from northern france invaded them led by William, compared to nearly 9 millions in France ) and less wealth than their neighbours so their King decided to use the commoners and forced them to train archery on a weekly basis to be able to count on cheap and loyal elite troops.

But elsewhere in Europe, the crossbow was a big thing, other kingdoms were not on an island and of a more feudal nature, with vassals loyalty being much more of an issue, no one dared train their peasant militias at archery ( which made usually 80+% of standing armies ) that could end up in the hands of the neighbouring lord or take up arms against you led by one of your family member. It was much safer to hire mercenaries with crossbows and have them leave your land once the campaign is over.

For a commoner being able to afford a crossbow meant you could become a mercenary which was attractive to the class of peasants who had to sell their hands to labour the land ( the pay as merc was so much better) or for bandits.

And as a bandit/looter without formal training from peasant background, the only weapon that allowed you to kill a noble in armour or mounted would be the crossbow as it required little to no training to shoot with accuracy. Any other weapon would get you killed if you are not trained.

I was mad when in Kingdom Come Deliverance, they did not put the crossbow. It is like making a western movie without revolvers, especially at that period of history covered by the game.

Actually, would be nice if another faction would get crossbows than Vlandia ( it is true that Franks heavily used crossbows historically) because even though the Greeks and Romans had their own design of crossbows, it is believed that it is the Muslim invasion of Iberia that brought the crossbows in Europe into fashion again by the 8th century (among the Franks), alongside merchants from the mediterranean.

But come to think of it, we can already hire crossbow mercenaries in the taverns so not sure it would add much. I would rather see troops with two handed maces if they add a new unit/weapon.

[Bukkacracy]

Originally posted by Albator:

Actually, would be nice if another faction would get crossbows than Vlandia ( it is true that Franks heavily used crossbows historically) because even though the Greeks and Romans had their own design of crossbows, it is believed that it is the Muslim invasion of Iberia that brought the crossbows in Europe into fashion again by the 8th century (among the Franks), alongside merchants from the mediterranean.

But come to think of it, we can already hire crossbow mercenaries in the taverns so not sure it would add much. I would rather see troops with two handed maces if they add a new unit/weapon.

Empire get crossbowmen. I think they have an upgrade path just for crossbowmen called Imperial crossbowmen or something.

Anyways I don't know where you guys get the idea that the expense of a crossbow wasn't much of a factor. Crossbows required precise metalworking and wood working while a bow just needed the latter. Crossbows required very good craftsmanship because they were smaller and carried considerably more draw weight than even the heaviest bows of the time. The crossbow string only travels a fraction as far as on a normal bow so the amount of energy it has to store is much higher meaning choice in materials and the care that goes into maintaining them is considerably higher.

The metal parts had to be kept oiled to prevent rusting, the strings had to be waxed regularly and the wedges that connect the bow portion to the body had to be adjusted often to prevent loss of accuracy. Not to mention the wood would swell just from the ambient moisture in the air and using it in the rain was basically out of the question unless you wanted it to be the last time you ever used it.

I feel like you guys are overblowing their importance a bit. The bow and arrow never fell completely out of favor until firearms started becoming popular for the reasons I listed and a bunch of others too.

[Pelikan]

Of course it was an expensive tool and harder to maintain than a longbow, you described it well by the way.

That is why mercenary crossbowmen/arbalester were expensive.

I never said the bow and arrow fell out of favour though, dunno where you saw that ;)

I merely said that the crossbow use was very widespread in continental europe from the 9th to the Renaissance when it was replaced with matchlocks.

Lets remember that to train just a small company of archers would take years, that was also an investment too by the way ...not to mention you needed to provide them with the equipment and arrows as opposed to mercs who came with their own gear.

Outside the Britain microcosm, elsewhere in Europe except maybe in Scandinavia who also had a culture of the longbow, crossbows were widely used in large numbers in the feudal armies, and bandits carried basic cheaper kinds, especially in France where it created severe issues with banditry in the high middle ages.

The simple ones : https://i.pinimg.com/originals/68/96/0c/68960c776e1ce429fbc45af40c59e487.jpg

The ones that would usually come from Italy, expensive :

https://image.jimcdn.com/app/cms/image/transf/none/path/s8df6163fcb862f0c/image/i7353a96b09645b42/version/1583412912/image.jpg

[Bukkacracy]

You're making it sound like you're defending the state the game is in now where everyone and their grandmother has access to crossbows in Vlandia. I also feel like you're forgetting armies of that time consisted largely of levy troops. Peasants had to hunt. Otherwise they couldn't put meat on their plates most of the time. While I'm sure peasants may have had access to crossbows in the high middle ages but during the time frame this game depicts it would have been rare. Fact is peasants bow hunted often back then and were expected to show up with their bows and the skills they had learned while hunting if their lord called on them. They were also of varying levels of effectiveness but they played a large role back then.

You guys like to bring up English longbowmen as well. The time period they existed in was between the 13th and 15th centuries. You're correct in saying everyone else started migrating towards more crossbow heavy armies during that time but you're really stretching the time period this game is supposed to be emulating if you're going to far.

[Scorpixel]

Bow hunting was nowhere near common, ESPECIALLY in feudal Europe, where most hunting grounds were a Noble exclusivity or "chasse-gardée".
In fact, gibier (rabbit, hog, deer, etc...) was almost never seen on a peasant's plate outside of illegal poaching, the only meat coming from farm animals and fish. Flying birds in particular were THE nobility's game of choice, as they were "the closest to God's realm".
Which is also why fauconnerie (falcon raising and hunting) was quite popular, even/especially among the feminine nobility.

[Pelikan]

Yes it is true that the time period covered by the game seems to be more like post- Roman empire. dark ages until early middle age, max 12 century.

I said in my first post that peasant militia were 80% or more of the feudal armies ( milices des communes). Militias comprised archers. But you needed to have the infrastructure to train archers.

Philippe Auguste used archers in France in the early 13th century when he won at Bouvines, but local lords later on either could not or did not want to train commoners as archers because of the political implications. It works when it is a King policy and the kingdom is mostly loyal.

In a more feudal setup like in France, it wouln't work in the high middle ages because of how divided the kingdom was. It was too risky to arm and train commoners to become elite troops.

And no, peasant did not have easy access to crossbow, you are totally correct that in the game it is overdone, however crossbows of all kinds bar the most refined (which came from Italy ) were produced locally for centuries, so it was a costly tool that only brigands and a small part of the peasantry could afford (among commoners besides merchant escorts) but still readily available.

Crossbowmen were mostly used as mercenaries or by nobles themselves during sieges, but in some part of europe like Italy and France, they became locally widespread at some point in the high middle age which created problems with banditry for years.

Good point Scorpixel ;) indeed many woods were only for the Lords, it depended the regions because in some parts of europe, peasants could hunt in some specific area rabbits and such, it depended on the Lord of the region i think.

[Crim]

I personally want to see one of the factions have ZERO Mounted
Maybe Vlandia would be suitable for this?

or Sturgia