Bland Battles (non gritty,responsive soldiers ect) Possible Additions

[RADIO_METRO]

Been playing the game quite a bit now and the battles just feel wayy to light hearted soldiers are unresponsive to commands theres not a lot of screaming or shouting while people chop each other up and the huge lack of gore/violence (dont get me wrong i aint a psychopath) it doesnt make much sense and removes/misses out on a lotta fun from the game. It is in early access i know but could be cool additions also the battle soundtrack is poopy.

Also a cool feature could be the higher the moral of an army the angrier the commander (you or ai) screams their commands and how your troops would respond also could change their performance in battle.

[Go0lden_Archer]

Totally agree. Without gore and sounds it feels like toy soldiers encounter, not army clash

[Morkonan]

It's difficult to see things related to "minutia" when you're in the middle of a heated battle. At best, you get glimpses of tiny details, but you're largely vision-locked to the overall progress of the battle.

Take a look at this vid. The reason I'm linking it, specifically, is because it's got a ton of slow motion and a lot of attention to the individual actions of soldiers and up-front-and-personal combat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m16EBwvSd0Y

Pay attention to the individual unit animatiosn, PhysX effects, how units react when they are hit, how they carry over animation momentum when they swing, etc... That's pretty detailed stuffs. :)

Added: Of particular note, PhysX activation is pretty darn quick when it's implemented. Bannerlord, like Warband, has detailed hit locations and there's some really great efficiency on display here when a unit goes from a "being hit" animation to "dead" and PhysX kicks in. That's pretty darn impressive and it's why, for instance, you can whack the heck out of a cavalry unit using a giant two-hander and literally watch them fly off their horse sometimes... You won't find that outside of games that do not have AI/NPC units. You might find that in multiplayer games, but not in games with hundreds of AI units that are "combined, independent, AI-driven, mobile objects" like cavalry. That's pretty special, IMO.

In regards to "gore," a couple of things - There is blood. There are bodies. There are weapons and shields scattered all over the place, too. All of that requires processing. The game has to put them there and has to do so dynamically and, in some cases, things like PhysX will be enabled that compounds the issue of the processing and memory footprint those things will have.

It's not exactly easy to manage "realistic battlefield gore."

Games that do that don't have the overhead Bannerlord has with huge battles and individual unit AI. They just don't. In every single instance I have personally seen that includes things like "gore," the games are entirely different and have little in the way of the number of units or the ability of any of those units to act as independent actors on a battlefield.

It's certain that blood effects will get tweaked. They were for Warband, they will be for Bannerlord. But, past that, you're going to have to have a beefy computer indeed to deal with heavy "gore" effect mods if that's your passion.

[RADIO_METRO]

Originally posted by Morkonan:

It's difficult to see things related to "minutia" when you're in the middle of a heated battle. At best, you get glimpses of tiny details, but you're largely vision-locked to the overall progress of the battle.

Take a look at this vid. The reason I'm linking it, specifically, is because it's got a ton of slow motion and a lot of attention to the individual actions of soldiers and up-front-and-personal combat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m16EBwvSd0Y

Pay attention to the individual unit animatiosn, PhysX effects, how units react when they are hit, how they carry over animation momentum when they swing, etc... That's pretty detailed stuffs. :)

In regards to "gore," a couple of things - There is blood. There are bodies. There are weapons and shields scattered all over the place, too. All of that requires processing. The game has to put them there and has to do so dynamically and, in some cases, things like PhysX will be enabled that compounds the issue of the processing and memory footprint those things will have.

It's not exactly easy to manage "realistic battlefield gore."

Games that do that don't have the overhead Bannerlord has with huge battles and individual unit AI. They just don't. In every single instance I have personally seen that includes things like "gore," the games are entirely different and have little in the way of the number of units or the ability of any of those units to act as independent actors on a battlefield.

It's certain that blood effects will get tweaked. They were for Warband, they will be for Bannerlord. But, past that, you're going to have to have a beefy computer indeed to deal with heavy "gore" effect mods if that's your passion.

Well with extra power needed for all the physX they can just add in sliders you know like with the rest of the graphics. The video also shows the jankeyness of how the characters move they act like they are weightless and have zero inertia (i think im using that word right) when they turn or stop/start moving. Also still lacks the proper audio (screams, slurs or other battle like voice lines) including the responsiveness to the troop commands.

[RADIO_METRO]

Originally posted by Go0lden_Archer:

Totally agree. Without gore and sounds it feels like toy soldiers encounter, not army clash

Yeah thats really true still fun but could be much better also there isint enough actual playtime I feel saw someone post that a lot of the game is clicking through menus, instead of sitting on the overworld map raiding a village for 2 minutes checking if a huge army is about to come and wipe you out you should be able to do it yourself

[Kahvipannu]

What are your sound channel settings? Having them too low, makes the battles weirdly silent, I noticed this too. That might be it, since I don't agree with the sounds lacking part of your post.

Also there is a ton of detail in units, a lot more than I expected actually, like archers closing one eye when aiming, so much little details like that.

Also units seem to follow orders very strictly, not sure what that is about.

Also, I personally like the music, but that is subjective.

[RADIO_METRO]

Originally posted by Kahvipannu:

What are your sound channel settings? Having them too low, makes the battles weirdly silent, I noticed this too. That might be it, since I don't agree with the sounds lacking part of your post.

Also there is a ton of detail in units, a lot more than I expected actually, like archers closing one eye when aiming, so much little details like that.

Also units seem to follow orders very strictly, not sure what that is about.

Also, I personally like the music, but that is subjective.

Have it on the highest all the battle sounds just sound looped (from troops) and just sounds like one yell didint say anything about detail on characters, neither did i say the troops dont follow orders i said that they dont respond vocally and the music aint heart pumping or very "Im leading an army of 500 men into battle kind of awesome"

[Operation40]

that's weird.. I have a lot of sounds during battle.. grunts and shouts and whatnot.. maybe it depends on your audio hardware, which none of us really pay attention to these days.. it's just part of the motherboard. I have a decent z390 board, but could totally see a budget board skimping out on the audio

one thing I really do think combat needs is *dismemberment*
let's be honest though -- I'm not going to be satisfied until I can attach an enemy's dismembered head to the end of a polearm and parade it in front of my soldiers.

[RADIO_METRO]

Originally posted by Operation40:

that's weird.. I have a lot of sounds during battle.. grunts and shouts and whatnot.. maybe it depends on your audio hardware, which none of us really pay attention to these days.. it's just part of the motherboard. I have a decent z390 board, but could totally see a budget board skimping out on the audio

one thing I really do think combat needs is *dismemberment*
let's be honest though -- I'm not going to be satisfied until I can attach an enemy's dismembered head to the end of a polearm and parade it in front of my soldiers.

My mobo is good quality gigabyte cant remember the specs just exaggerating but there is a very limited amount of battle lines mainly consisting of yeahrrr orrgrghhh and yahh listen to the video and they only play every now and then^^

Dismemberment I want too there is a shabby head dismemberment mod but it just reuses the models/code from the executions on lords and also shows holes inside of their model where the neck and head connect

Edit would also be really cool to see if it would randomise the voices and features of the soldiers like in the character maker, and have different voices and lines from different cultures

[Morkonan]

Originally posted by RADIO_METRO:

Well with extra power needed for all the physX they can just add in sliders you know like with the rest of the graphics. The video also shows the jankeyness of how the characters move they act like they are weightless and have zero inertia (i think im using that word right) when they turn or stop/start moving. Also still lacks the proper audio (screams, slurs or other battle like voice lines) including the responsiveness to the troop commands.

I feel you just saw "negatives" and didn't actually consider the "positives."

For instance, individual units have some great animations. Those animations have "mass." You can see that a lot of detail was put into follow-throughs and adjusting the character's stance as they attack/defend.

Now, that's not "dynamic" necessarily. There are dynamic bits to animations and things that will cause animations to be interrupted, change, some slight variability here and there, etc.. So, they are far removed from "simple animation scripts." There isn't a lot of true "jankiness" in individual animations considering that those animations can be effected/changed dynamically. A sword swing animation can be interrupted and a "being hit in arm" animation being blended in pretty darn quickly. There IS always going to be a slight delay in animation blends. You can't escape from that. I suppose if there was a game that had one character and it only ever interacted with one object, all possible combinations of animation could be loaded and ready in memory so that no active "blending" would ever have to take place, making dynamic animations as fluid as possible and only delayed by CPU hz... But, that would be a bit over-the-top, right? :)

Then again, PhysX is kinda for that... No animations needed, just ragdoll and we're good to go! (If you've ever played Kenshi, you'll note how individual body parts will ragdoll when they're wounded so badly that they are marked as "disabled." It's a pretty cool feature, but it's not really practical for mass combat. Similarly, we can't expect something like goal-oriented Inverse Kinematics animations where all that is considered is "move your hand to here" and we see this wonderful, physically accurate, fluid motion. That's more for single-player adventure games that can afford that overhead.)

On fast-stop/turn/movement momentum/inertia - These are all independent units. But, they are also required to respond as a "Group." I do agree it would be much more wonderful if, for instance, when responding to a Group AI Goal that has been changed, each individual unit responded in a fluid way to that at all times. BUT... that isn't efficient and could present issues. For instance, you want units to react to your orders, not "Imma finish wat im doin then will do ur order," right? Do you want that soldier to finish their current 1v1 fight first, then "Go To Position?"

While it would certainly make for more fluid reactions by groups, it'd likely take a lot more processing to actually "do." Every single unit would then have to have what? A que of orders to follow that required an "if this, then that, but only after this" constantly processing. You'll see a more instant reaction to orders with the current system, but you'll also note that you will still see units reacting to their immediate surroundings as well. That slight interrupt or "jankines" is not easily removed, IMO.

PS: I'm not mindlessly defending TW or Bannerlord, here. Sure, it's not a perfect simulation. And, yes, even for what it is there could be some improvements. But, I have to encourage you to acknowledge what is already in the game and how impressive it is, technically, given how very many things we can do with all these units on a battlefield.

[RADIO_METRO]

Originally posted by Morkonan:

Originally posted by RADIO_METRO:

Well with extra power needed for all the physX they can just add in sliders you know like with the rest of the graphics. The video also shows the jankeyness of how the characters move they act like they are weightless and have zero inertia (i think im using that word right) when they turn or stop/start moving. Also still lacks the proper audio (screams, slurs or other battle like voice lines) including the responsiveness to the troop commands.

I feel you just saw "negatives" and didn't actually consider the "positives."

For instance, individual units have some great animations. Those animations have "mass." You can see that a lot of detail was put into follow-throughs and adjusting the character's stance as they attack/defend.

Now, that's not "dynamic" necessarily. There are dynamic bits to animations and things that will cause animations to be interrupted, change, some slight variability here and there, etc.. So, they are far removed from "simple animation scripts." There isn't a lot of true "jankiness" in individual animations considering that those animations can be effected/changed dynamically. A sword swing animation can be interrupted and a "being hit in arm" animation being blended in pretty darn quickly. There IS always going to be a slight delay in animation blends. You can't escape from that. I suppose if there was a game that had one character and it only ever interacted with one object, all possible combinations of animation could be loaded and ready in memory so that no active "blending" would ever have to take place, making dynamic animations as fluid as possible and only delayed by CPU hz... But, that would be a bit over-the-top, right? :)

Then again, PhysX is kinda for that... No animations needed, just ragdoll and we're good to go! (If you've ever played Kenshi, you'll note how individual body parts will ragdoll when they're wounded so badly that they are marked as "disabled." It's a pretty cool feature, but it's not really practical for mass combat. Similarly, we can't expect something like goal-oriented Inverse Kinematics animations where all that is considered is "move your hand to here" and we see this wonderful, physically accurate, fluid motion. That's more for single-player adventure games that can afford that overhead.)

On fast-stop/turn/movement momentum/inertia - These are all independent units. But, they are also required to respond as a "Group." I do agree it would be much more wonderful if, for instance, when responding to a Group AI Goal that has been changed, each individual unit responded in a fluid way to that at all times. BUT... that isn't efficient and could present issues. For instance, you want units to react to your orders, not "Imma finish wat im doin then will do ur order," right? Do you want that soldier to finish their current 1v1 fight first, then "Go To Position?"

While it would certainly make for more fluid reactions by groups, it'd likely take a lot more processing to actually "do." Every single unit would then have to have what? A que of orders to follow that required an "if this, then that, but only after this" constantly processing. You'll see a more instant reaction to orders with the current system, but you'll also note that you will still see units reacting to their immediate surroundings as well. That slight interrupt or "jankines" is not easily removed, IMO.

PS: I'm not mindlessly defending TW or Bannerlord, here. Sure, it's not a perfect simulation. And, yes, even for what it is there could be some improvements. But, I have to encourage you to acknowledge what is already in the game and how impressive it is, technically, given how very many things we can do with all these units on a battlefield.

Dont think you get why i made this post, I made it for new things they could add to improve the game and for inertia I mean they turn and move without having weight to them looks as if they start and stop like start 100% to instant 0% speed dont have problems with the other stuff only brought up lack of voice lines and possible gore and that the ai dont have real look to them when they move/turn as if they are weightles

Inertia means

PHYSICS
a property of matter by which it continues in its existing state of rest or uniform motion in a straight line, unless that state is changed by an external force.

I used the word to help describe how they should have a gradual stop and start to their movements as in turning left or right moving forward or backward also their legs seem to not be connected with their upper torso like they moving on their own when they start a animation that uses their upper body

Also added "Additions" in the title of the post

[Morkonan]

Originally posted by RADIO_METRO:

..
My mobo is good quality gigabyte cant remember the specs just exaggerating but there is a very limited amount of battle lines mainly consisting of yeahrrr orrgrghhh and yahh listen to the video and they only play every now and then^^

I once thought as you did, then I...

Then, I was looking at the detailed AAR report after a victory to see what units were performing well and started hearing a lot of spoken victory-dialogue I hadn't heard before. A bunch of it.

There's a ton more in-game than any of us are hearing regularly. Try it out and see and make sure to stand near different groups of units after a battle. Some shouts/dialogue is much more common than others.

Dismemberment I want too there is a shabby head dismemberment mod but it just reuses the models/code from the executions on lords and also shows holes inside of their model where the neck and head connect

In order to not do that, they'd actually have to create new geometry.

What they are likely doing is taking an entire geometry group and hiding then reproducing it or just disassociating it from the rig and then enabling PhysX for that group. Simple, effective, but you can't get rid of the "hole" because it's the original geometry. (That's basically how Kenshi's dismemberment works for limbs, if you've seen that.) And, that's really the only decent way to go about doing that without adding a very significant amount of weight to the overall footprint for very little gain. Every unit would have to have new geometry added or dynamic geometry assigned. (I do not know that dynamic geoemtry switches are possible in Bannerlord's engine. Even damage to castle walls during a siege looks like its geometry that's already there, just hidden.)

Edit would also be really cool to see if it would randomise the voices and features of the soldiers like in the character maker, and have different voices and lines from different cultures

They do that. But, more custom voice work needs to be done and, AFAIK, is planned. TW uses a modulation system for its "voice effects" for battles. Or, at least it does in Warband. What that means is that individual units may share the same basic "voiced sound effect" but then the engine will modulate that in terms of tone, pitch, to make it seem as if they're different voices.

More voice work is planned, though I don't recall if work for battlefield voices was specifically mentioned. (It's worth noting that this specific thing was pretty easily done and sounded pretty nice with TW's modulation system in mods that added unique shouts.)

[Morkonan]

Originally posted by RADIO_METRO:

....Dont think you get why i made this post, I made it for new things they could add to improve the game and for inertia I mean they turn and move without having weight to them looks as if they start and stop like start 100% to instant 0% speed dont have problems with the other stuff only brought up lack of voice lines and possible gore and that the ai dont have real look to them when they move/turn as if they are weightles
...

I was just attempting to explain to you why it's not always as easy to do the things you seem to believe are easy to do. That's all.

[RADIO_METRO]

Originally posted by Morkonan:

Originally posted by RADIO_METRO:

....Dont think you get why i made this post, I made it for new things they could add to improve the game and for inertia I mean they turn and move without having weight to them looks as if they start and stop like start 100% to instant 0% speed dont have problems with the other stuff only brought up lack of voice lines and possible gore and that the ai dont have real look to them when they move/turn as if they are weightles
...

I was just attempting to explain to you why it's not always as easy to do the things you seem to believe are easy to do. That's all.

Didint say the gore was going to be easy and i did say the mod is shabby meaning rough and not very good and for the animations lacking weight they could just add in either something at the end of a movement animation where its like move "insert whatever" forward speed "insert whatever here" or start another animation at the end of a movement/create friction basically they will slide a bit untill the friction slows their movement down the engine they are using should have somthing along the lines to make stuff like this work if they aint its probably outdated as ♥♥♥♥ and shouldmt be able to run 2000 man armies in the first place