Stop asking for a bows & arrows nerf because...

[Veolfen]

... it's the piercing damage type that needs balancing.

This type of damage ignores too much armor making it extremely deadly even against the heaviest armor.

I always thought that maces&hammers should keep a high %base penetration, making them deal their damage to everything (every armor will still protect a bit vs blunt but plate or padded, you'll still take a hit inside those armors).

Meanwhile, "piercing" penetration should be a flat amount. Something around 25 penetration, making it deal very high damages on low to middle tier armors, but being reduced pretty hard by the heaviest armors. (Like in reality, it either goes through, or don't and do little to no damage).

Pretty sure the penetration of the piercing damage type always was the problem, from warband to bannerlord.


Also the TTK is also improved (faster TTK) by the fact the weapons have 2 times the damages (even more for 2 handers & bows) they had in Warband, for way less than 2 times the HPs units had in Warband.

[Halfgeek]

The effect of armor in reducing dmg (all types) needs a big boost. Atm, battles feel way too arcade and even huge battles are over in a minute.

[Veolfen]

The heaviest armor already does an amazing job vs slash damages. That proves the raw defense of armor already does an amazing job.
It's the penetration of the piercing weapon type that ignores most of that raw defense that is the problem, not the value of the armors !
It's also the reason people don't go much for blunt weapons, piercing is much more practical and already does an amazing job.

[[MNI] Kisune]

Originally posted by Halfgeek:

The effect of armor in reducing dmg (all types) needs a big boost. Atm, battles feel way too arcade and even huge battles are over in a minute.

While they are somewhat fast i find if you acctualy happen to find 2 good armys the speed at that they kill each other is not as much of a problem
its more morale and the swarm of low tier units that causes problems
But overall i guess that is gonna need a rebalance anyway once weapon skill level actualy work (for non named Npcs)
That is if they plan to enable it for them
Edit: if you wanna test the actual defense decide to let a guy hit you with a slash while you are both just standing
he is gonna take quite a few hits to down you

[[MNI] Kisune]

As for The topic
Not to sure about the balance of blunt weapons atm so no idea about that
but giving pierce damage just a certain treeshold of armor that gets pirced (maybe a percentage of the dmg it deals) and then having armor work fully seems like a good potential idea to me

[Atlar]

Originally posted by Halfgeek:

The effect of armor in reducing dmg (all types) needs a big boost. Atm, battles feel way too arcade and even huge battles are over in a minute.

Imo, the problem is not the damage. Sword to the face = death. Sword to the body takes 2-3 hits on unamored and multiple on heavy armor. Seems about right.
Arrows are too strong on armor, yes, but the arcadeish feel comes from general battle speed and the usual AI Zerg Rush tactic.
If the AI would move it's army more realisticly, instead of just rushing with everything from spawn, then battles would feel much better and take longer.

[[MNI] Kisune]

Originally posted by Atlar:

Originally posted by Halfgeek:

The effect of armor in reducing dmg (all types) needs a big boost. Atm, battles feel way too arcade and even huge battles are over in a minute.

Imo, the problem is not the damage. Sword to the face = death. Sword to the body takes 2-3 hits on unamored and multiple on heavy armor. Seems about right.
Arrows are too strong on armor, yes, but the arcadeish feel comes from general battle speed and the usual AI Zerg Rush tactic.
If the AI would move it's army more realisticly, instead of just rushing with everything from spawn, then battles would feel much better and take longer.

I actualy had one such battle and i think it took 13 minutes or so (no idea what caused it)
so yhea the potential is there

[Atlar]

Originally posted by MNI Kísune:

As for The topic
Not to sure about the balance of blunt weapons atm so no idea about that
but giving pierce damage just a certain treeshold of armor that gets pirced (maybe a percentage of the dmg it deals) and then having armor work fully seems like a good potential idea to me

Blunt weapons are quite disappointing... they are supposed to be good vs armor but swords or polearms with higher base damage are much better.
Their only benefit is that they always wound on "kill" but that's just useless when you capture dozens of enemies anyway. Especially when it takes weeks to recruit the guys from a single battle..

[Veolfen]

Blunt weapons are not really disappointing, i find their damage output quite good : you take down anything, low to heavily armored units pretty fast.
The main problem is some heavy 1 handed and 2 handed weapons might have too much base damage to be affected significantly by the heaviest armors.(Added to the fact hp pool is "lower" than warband compared to the weapon damages).

Also as stated in the main point of the topic, the piercing damage type is also way too "penetrating" vs the heaviest armors, making them as damaging (or even more damaging than blunt) because this penetration is too high and their base stats are overall better than blunt weapons too.

[bobroonie.bda]

We the guys from Barebow Archery decided to test a 14th century replica Carbon Steel Breastplate against the Warbow. We decided to see how Hand Forged Bodkins would react compared to Machined Bullet Piles......as you can see the Bullet Piles did not do well. There is a hessian sack stuffed with thick dense canvas inside the Breastplate to emulate a Padded Jack and human torso. The arrows passed through the Plate and entered straight into the Sack and Canvas. It has been said that the knights would have to be almost on top of the archers at a distance of 20 meters for the arrows to penetrate the Armour. This being the case we tested at 20-25 meters and you can see the results. If the knights did not get fatal wounds from the arrows the shock waves through the body might badly bruise or rupture something.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCE40J93m5c

[GutturalWail]

I remember there was a pretty good free to play warband clone called Tiger Knight made by a Chinese company. They had a really good system of Slashing, Piercing and Blunt damage. Every piece of armor had a certain value for each type, for example Chainmail type armors had high value for slashing, medium value for piercing, and almost nothing for blunt. if you had a Gambeson, high blunt numbers, moderate slashing numbers and low piercing numbers. I think something like that would be pretty awesome in this game.

[Morkonan]

Originally posted by Veolfen:

... it's the piercing damage type that needs balancing.

This type of damage ignores too much armor making it extremely deadly even against the heaviest armor.

...
Pretty sure the penetration of the piercing damage type always was the problem, from warband to bannerlord.


...Also the TTK is also improved (faster TTK) by the fact the weapons have 2 times the damages (even more for 2 handers & bows) they had in Warband, for way less than 2 times the HPs units had in Warband.

Piercing Damage has always been a favorite subject in Warband for many. There are "Pros" and "Cons" and then there's just screaming in rage...

The deadliest thing in the game is either the tip of a fast-traveling lance or a javelin to the head. Always has been, always will be... I do not like javelins to the face.

The thing is, though, there's got to be a counter to "Best Armor in the Game." Perks add to hit-points, reduce certain negatives, etc... There should be a Perk for Piercing Protection. Or, several, so that a Player could still reach one of them at least.


Vigor: Two-Handed: "Iron Skin" - +1 Piercing Damage Protection (-1 Piercing damage)

Endurance: Athletics: "Elusive" - Ranged weapons hits against you have 20% reduced chance to crit

Cunning: Rogue: "Catlike Reflexes" - Ranged weapons have 5% reduced chance to hit you

Social: Charm: "Not in the face!" - Javelin hits have a 20% Reduced Headshot Rate... (PLEASE!)

[RawCode]

best armor in game ever debug one won't protect you from looters with stones

armor is joke

[[MNI] Kisune]

Originally posted by Nero Serpe:

I remember there was a pretty good free to play warband clone called Tiger Knight made by a Chinese company. They had a really good system of Slashing, Piercing and Blunt damage. Every piece of armor had a certain value for each type, for example Chainmail type armors had high value for slashing, medium value for piercing, and almost nothing for blunt. if you had a Gambeson, high blunt numbers, moderate slashing numbers and low piercing numbers. I think something like that would be pretty awesome in this game.

Any place where i can find the game?
I always locked for games like mount and blade and couuld never find any like it (well freeman guerilla warfare but lets just say its not great and its set in mordern times)
But overall yhea that could also help make armors more varied I mean sure some slight cotton paded shirt should always remain weaker then stuff like high tier lamelar armor
but it could still give more variety

[[MNI] Kisune]

Originally posted by RawCode:

best armor in game ever debug one won't protect you from looters with stones

armor is joke

What do you mean with protect?
become invulnerable ageinst it? well that probably wont work but being able to take them witout having any problem with it that is easylie possible (and i never even had such a good armor)

[Cian]

Armor only absorbs 1 - 100/(100+armor) damage from blunt. So 33.33% at 50 armor.

Cut damage gets an extra reduction of 1/2 your armor applied to it. So reducing an additional 25 from cut. 10% of it counts as blunt for penetration.

Pierce damage gets an extra reduction of 1/3 your armor applied to it. So reducing an additional 16.67 from pierce. 25% of it counts as blunt for penetration.

The percentage of blunt only really applies for small hits where the additional reduction would absorb it all. For example, a slash of 30 damage would do zero against 50 armor if not for the 10% blunt thing. So a 30 cut would only end up doing 2 damage. While a 30 blunt would do 20. And a 30 pierce would only do 5.

The model of calculating how much raw damage it is affects a lot, though. Arrows or javelins flying at you get more of a boost than a sword swing.

It wouldn't be hard to make a mod that simply alters these numbers to see how a different armor model changes things :)